US-Mexico (R) Grades

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by sidefootsitter, Sep 4, 2005.

  1. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    DC
    Where Ralston was when the ball was first played isn't the issue, IF Gooch heads it. If a US player touches it after the corner is played in, then it's where Ralston is when that US player touches it. But Francisco Rodriguez, a Mexican defender, says he thinks he got the touch that hit the post. So then Ralston is ok with his position. But if Gooch touched it, that in effect "resets" the offside consideration, although making those kind of split-second adjustments is one of the hardest things that refs have to do.
     
  2. obewan

    obewan New Member

    Jul 24, 2005
    NC
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So should we raise Donovan's marks for setting up the corner that set up the GW goal? The marks are based on the performance over the course of the game and not one individual play.
     
  3. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I more-or-less agree except bump Bealsey up to a 9. He was THE danger all day (don't downgrade him for missing a cheeky chip in the late minutes when the game was effectively over, that was just an attempt to score a little highlight reel goal when it didn't matter, if the score was 0-0 or 1-0 he woud've tried to beat the GK 1v1), and upgrade Donovan to more like a 5 or 6. He was not horrible, people. Starved of service and double-teamed. Refer to the thread on the attack. No link-up from midfield at all, hence he sees little. AND he single-handedly created the 2nd Beasley goal by winning an airball from 2 defenders and putting in a shot on goal which was actually a good point-blank save and that won the corner. Give Arena an 8. He came up with an ugly game-plan but it was one proven to beat Mexico in a hotly contested, chippy, ugly game. Oh, and Ralston gets a 5. He had a goal and about 5-10 minutes of decent play, upgrading him from a 4. HE was the truly worthless one. Armas destroyed both our attack and theirs, Ralston... nothing much defensively, nothing at all on attack.
     
  4. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    The more he talks, the worse he plays. He needs to shut up with the bravado. He's become so preoccupied with the Mexicans that he now acts like one, yapping before the game then disappearing when the whistle blows.
     
  5. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Yeah, Bruce totally surprised me with several aspects of his lineup, this one included. I guess that LD plays well at forward at the club level (right?) but it's been a long time since he has impressed internationally.
     
  6. jägermeister

    jägermeister New Member

    May 18, 2004
    Hannover
    Just had this thought after reading his after match comments.

    Becoming what you hate.

    That's the phrase...isn't it?

    I am an LD fan. Period. I have however never agreed with him being captain or calling him a eader. He has never acted like one - talent does not make you a leader.
    One of BA's reasons I believe was that he played with more confidence with it.
    It seems everything is built around this kids confidence. He is not a leader.
    Not everyone is.

    Hell, George Jr is not a leader, way to defensive, inexperienced, not very decisive, needs everything scripted before talking and mentally fragile, his father was a leader, but Jr is still President (do not assume you know my political standing with this statement - George Jr is not a leader, he is not his dad who obviously was). LD is skilled and dynamic, but he is not a leader, but he still is the biggest face of our team. The Pres if you will in many ways.

    After all of the arm chair amateur analysis I do believe that this guy really is still very immature and/or inexperienced. This does not make him a bad person and he is one of the best players we have, but he should not be wearing the captains armband.

    Again, for all the limitations Armas has, and how I would love to see him replaced, he should be wearing that band before LD.

    Yes, I know he wasn't capt last match, just tying it into previous actions and the never ending needs to boost this kids confidence it seems.

    Kid needs a mentor big time here in MLS. Problem is we have to go out and buy one and have him teach this kid what his position in the US community actually means and how to handle it. The PR gaffes over the last year have been terrible. Just terrible. Get Klinnsmans ass over here to run the Galaxy after the cup and have him teach/throw a few barbs his way. I hear
    he is good at this.

    I am very happy to see the US grow less dependent on single players. Skill and ability does not equal leadership, but people tend to forget or ignore this.

    It deosn't matter how bad he played "he has to fight harder" and then shut the F up or just be more professional/secure in his gloating. Nothing wrong with the gloat, just do it in a way that doesn't mirror what you detest.

    Someone on our team, CR or KK, needs to tell him how to act.

    Yep, turning into what you hate.
     
  7. mbanks

    mbanks Member

    Mar 11, 1999
    Oi, a politics post. I'm as frustrated with you are with the criminal, murderous incompetence, but there's another board for that purpose.

    Well, I'll try to draw us back to analysis by casting this thought on the waters.

    One of the main reasons Gooch and Berhalter looked so good was that they didn't have to deal with crosses from the sides or behind them. They weren't exposed for speed or mobility thanks to Morales' and Fonseca's inability to get behind their marks and penetrate down the sides. Any defender would rather deal with long balls ballooned straight down the field than bent behind them. So, aces to Hejduk and Lewis for that. (In the "think" close-up, Berhalter was trying to get Lewis to remember his line, for offside trap purposes. Kudos to him in staying so compact through the game.)

    Borghetti's made his reputation with headed goals from balls crossed from the side of the box. See his game against Brazil this summer, when he looked unstoppable. No service and his frustration builds. Plus, the US defense kept a high defense line thanks to Kasey's command of the box/confidence eating up through balls.

    No space to breathe out there, especially in the first half. (It was traffic accident-garbage time after the second goal.) Gooch was magnificent, a worthy successor to His Holiness the Pope, but he had help out there.

    Anyone watch the Everton-Liverpool match from 1991 on Monday? The amount of space those guys had on the ball compared to today was unbelievable.
     
  8. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The problem is that Reyna is much better in the midfield than LD. Ultimately LD is a role player for this team and is going to move around depending the opponent. His passing was pretty bad on Saturday, which many tout as his best attribute.

    What this game highlighted for me was that DMB is by far the most important player on the team. You can tell if Bruce thinks the game is important or not because DMB is on the field.

    I thought the central pairing of Gooch and Berhalter was good from a defensive stand point, however, the passing out of the back was pretty bad. I understand the Berthalter is in there to organize for Gooch, but the endless backpasses to an inpet (with his feet) Keller, or hopeless long balls totally killed any chance for the US to build out of the back. Couple that with having Armas as a primary outlet and you get the kind of game we saw Saturday. Hopefully Boca and Gibbs will be ready to control the defence along side Gooch at the WC.

    I really like Lewis on the left. I can live with Frankie on the right as I think the right back is going to be stay at home more than on the left.

    I hope Tino continues to show well on the right.
     
  9. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    He's much better in the middle of the field, yes. He's worse in the attacking third.

    Donovan attacking mid for this team, but he'll be used at times as forward. He is not a role player, by any reasonable definition of the phrase.

    That's not even true for this game, in which Gooch & Reyna were equally important.

    Agreed.
     
  10. Heathens '87

    Heathens '87 Member

    United States
    Mar 4, 2004
    Michigan
    Club:
    RSC Anderlecht
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I had a front-row seat, and can tell you there was some serious talking going on in the back. What was impressive to me was that it was Berhalter organizing the defense, barking out instruction to Lewis, Gooch, and Hejduk. Gregg was especially tough on Lewis in terms of positioning.

    I hadn't seen that kind of leadership out of Berhalter before, and he deserves some credit for working with his teammates to execute the defense that shut down Mexico. If he can play this well while filling that veteran, experienced leader in back role, his chances of making the WC squad advance considerably.

    Berhalter may not be able to play left-back, but he certainly understood what Eddie needed to be doing out there.......
     
  11. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Sadly, Berhalter's legs won't obey his brain.
     
  12. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Reyna was pretty effective on Saturday and the team is much better when there at 2 two-way midfielders in the middle, as opposed to a straight A-mid and D-mid.


    Is he really the attacking mid for the team? Or is that only when Reyna isn't playing?

    He's a role player in the sense, that while he will always be on the field, his role from game to game will change. He doesn't have a "position" and I don't really expect to see him develop one.


    If the US has any chance to be dangerous in tough games, it always seems to come through DMB more consistently than anyone else. I think he actually has gotten faster.
     
  13. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    An argument for Donovan at forward is that his speed makes him a very dangerous player when he has room to maneuver - send him a through-ball, watch him leave defenders in his wake.

    The problem with this theory in "big" matches is that his ball control has gotten worse and worse over the years. Where he was able to make Didi Hamann and Thomas Linke look foolish in the 2,002 quarters, he was able to accomplish nothing against Mexico. Close space around him and he just doesn't have the ball control/dribbling skills to get by a defender anymore.

    And guess what, a good team will not allow you the time to dilly-dally around in the offensive zone. Just as Bruce has Frankie and Chris "get into a player's grill" without letting him breathe, any decent national team will clamp down on Donovan and then the only passes he'll be able to make would be backwards.

    This is becoming a major problem for the US. As is true in any sports, once an opponent finds a weak spot with a player, he'll not change its approach until that weakness is eliminated. If Donovan could take his marker off a dribble like Justin Mapp, he'd have plenty of space to roam and make his passes but, until he gets back his dribbling skills and his determination to beat his guy, he will not see an inch of daylight against organized teams.
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Hmmm ... I agree that Donovan is not very dangerous on the dribble, but I don't see that as his real problem when playing forward for USMNT. Not everybody needs to be Justin Mapp. Landon has the speed, anticipation, and tactical awareness to create & find space.

    The real trouble is, he's been crap. His first touch has let him down, his finishing has been poor, his decision making has been suspect, he's acted like he doesn't want to be there.
     
  15. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    But why will he "always be on the field"?

    Is that because he is the "face of the US Soccer"?

    I mean, there are a lot of games where he doesn't grade out all that well, according to pretty much any analysis. (OK, Marco, I'll give him a "4" but he was not as good as Ralston was. Steve actually hustled back defensively and Mexico did nothing against him and Hejduk on their left). I thought he was the poorest player - by far - on the field against El Tri. He didn't win any balls and he lost an overwhelming majority of them when he was in a position to do something. (And, as JohnR has said, he talks a lot better game than he plays)

    Believe it or not, I'd rather have had Josh Wolff partnering with McBride than Donovan on Saturday. At least, Josh "gets stuck" in there.
     
  16. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    But doesn't your 2nd paragraph assessment negate your first one?

    In other words, Landon is becoming a Josh Wolff clone without the effort. He'll get to a ball (OK, Donovan actually will have an idea about what to do with it) but then lose it.

    And while he may be able to get by without Mapp's skills, why not try Mapp in the same spot and see what Justin can do, given a similar opportunity.
     
  17. Heathens '87

    Heathens '87 Member

    United States
    Mar 4, 2004
    Michigan
    Club:
    RSC Anderlecht
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    ....and I'd rather have Landon instead of Ralston. SFS....I continue to be convinced that Landon is playing out of position at forward, and needs to be an attacking midfielder. But you're right, Wolff would be more effective at forward because he is one......

    I'm also becoming convinced that Landon's dribbling has gotten sloppy because he can get away with that in MLS. That he should be challenging himself at the club level is for a different thread, but amongst the positives and negatives of his decision, this is a negative.

    Perhaps we'll see Landon upping his level as we face a round of friendlies against WC-class compeition. I continue to believe that we'll be as good as Landon and Beasley's finishing next summer, and while Beasley is improving his game at PSV, I think Landon is at a pleateau. What he does, and what Arena puts in front of him, remains to be seen........
     
  18. adi21

    adi21 Member

    The ones that have Americans starting
    United States
    Mar 17, 2001
    Maryland
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Reyna 5
    Ralston 6 (even scoring that gimme)
    By giving out those grades you lost all credibility
     
  19. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    At forward?

    Make no mistake - I am not knocking Landon's overall game. He has been very good in the midfield. He may even be an effective USMNT forward. I just haven't seen that in a while, that's all.
     
  20. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    But ... Landon at A-mid would then allow for a 4-4-2 "diamond" but not the "box". The problem with that is Reyna's more comfortable as a 4-4-2 holding midfielder with Bruce loathe to try Claudio on the right.

    In a 4-4-2 "diamond", Bruce will always field a destroyer in front of his backline and that may sit both Reyna and JOB and force Armas onto the pitch.

    With both Reyna and JOB (of which we had a glimpses for about 6 minutes) available, Bruce loves his 4-4-2 "box" and that leaves Donovan at forward or on the right and Landon is not very comfortable at either of the positions.

    In the past, Arena may have settled for that anyway but he may be getting better options for 2,006.

    The other alternative is a 3-5-2 but that requires Cory Gibbs to be available, as Greg Berhalter is a bit too slow to be manning a 3-man backline. Also a 3-5-2 may keep either Lewis or O'Brien off the field.

    PS. I do agree on the rest.

    PPS. If I were Bruce, I'd also try other combinations.

    McBride-Jeffro on top in a 4-4-2 "Box".

    McBride/West in a 4-4-2 "Box".

    Beasley-Quaranta as wide mids in a 4-4-2 "Box".

    Beasley-Mapp-Quaranta in a 4-4-2 "Diamond".

    Beasley-Convey-Quaranta in a 4-4-2 "Diamond".

    A little competition couldn't hurt Landon ... or could it?
     
  21. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Mapp is taylor made to be #10, IMO.

    I think Landon with space is a totally different player than Landon who's closed down quickly.

    In the All-Star game, Fulham defenders kept backing off him, as they would off any decent forward with such speed, and he ate them alive. He also has space in MLS (at least often enough) and against the lesser CONCACAF teams that are not very organized in the back. He also may have benefited from his reputation (justly earned, btw) that made other teams back off him.

    But against the top level (World's Top 20-30 teams), any player will be closed quickly in the offensive third, regardless if his name is Thierry Henry or Landon Donovan and, at this point, Landon is not having an easy time dealing with tight marking.
     
  22. st ryma 7

    st ryma 7 Member

    Dec 23, 2004
    the south bay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think mapp would do best with the nats if he were on the opposite side from beas, thespeed of both of them flying down both wings, it would be very easy to break down almost any defense
     
  23. Heathens '87

    Heathens '87 Member

    United States
    Mar 4, 2004
    Michigan
    Club:
    RSC Anderlecht
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The basis of my opinion....

    If everyone is available, I continue to see Landon as a roaming attacking midfielder, Beasley on the left, Reyna as a right-sided holding midfielder, playing behind Landon, Pablo as your D-Mid, with Cherundolo given freedom to come forward on the right. We're likely to be a bit of a left-sided team, but opening up the right for Reyna, Dolo, and Landon to take advantage of space. I still O'Brien, if available, as your "super-sub" with a spot start if we go without a D-mid against a less dangerous team.

    Landon, in my view, is best when he has options when moving forward, and that just doesn't happen when he's at forward. Johnson's absence in the last two games gave Bruce the opportunity to see Landon up-top, and as a true forward, he's serviceable. Once Eddie returns, I think we'll see Landon move back to his natural position at the international level. Donovan also hasn't realized how to take advantage of the space created by McBride, who is excellent at drawing the defense.

    The entire team, and Landon is particular, will benefit from playing an increased level of competition in preparation for the World Cup.
     
  24. skydog

    skydog Member+

    Aug 1, 1999
    Durham, NC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Mexico basically shut down both our forwards, Landon and McBride. And the US shut down Mexico's forwards as well. All of the danger from either side came from the midfield. I don't think that means that Donovan's skills have slipped, or he doesn't care, any more than it means McBride and Borghetti's skills have slipped or they don't care. It just means that both defenses did a great job.

    Here is what Landon brings to the table: A+ passing, A reading the game, A+ speed, A- finishing, B dribbling in tight spaces, B one on one skills, C physical aggressiveness, C winning 50-50 balls in general, C winning tackles, D winning contested balls in the air. It's been that way for years. He has gotten better at all of these over time, but the overall distribution of skills remains the same.

    He looks great in any game where he has some space to move in. Then BS posters talk about how good he is and what an effort he is giving. That's because his passing and vision are extraordinary.

    But with this skill set he isn't going shine in a physical game where every ball is contested, where he has no time or space to work in, and where his teammates are also tightly marked. After games like this, BS posters say Donovan sucks, or isn't trying, or disappeared. Well the last is true, but not because he sucks or he isn't trying - it's because he never has been good in those conditions.

    Interestingly, if we had been LESS effective as a team and spent more time in our own half, Landon would have looked better since he would have had more space around him when he did receive the ball.

    In a game like this, Donovan's is still an asset to the US in that if a rebound comes his way, or there is a defensive breakdown, or a cross reaches his head, he has a high chance of scoring or making the perfectly weighted pass to a teammate for a score. It won't happen every game - but it will happen fairly often over the course of a few games.

    And comparing his play in this game to Ralston makes no sense. If he were playing right mid, where there is often more room and time to operate he would have very likely looked pretty damn good offensively. But defensively he might have been a liability compared to Ralston.

    I think with Mexico's tight marking defense the only US forward that would have had a higher probability of scoring than Donovan might have been EJ. His speed and leaping ability make him a great physical challenge for any defender to mark out of a game.

    This is a long-winded way of saying don't judge a player without taking the opposing teams play into account. Donovan has never been great in tight spaces, nothing has changed.
     
  25. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    If everyone is available there is no possible way Landon is good enough to play in the central midfield at the expense of either JOB or Reyna. Those two are so far superior in every important aspect of what it takes to play those positions.

    It may be Landon's best position, but I certainly don't agree that he is the best we have at that position.

    The only way I see it happening is if Bruce goes to a 5 man midfield.
     

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