I will say this. I suppose that I could be missing something but I don't think that there are too many things that people are critical about in European soccer. Can you think of anything that I am forgetting? There are plenty of people that believe Euriopean soccer is the be all end all in terms of direction that MLS should be going. On the other hand, there are definitely a number of people that criticize MLS. some of it is definitely warranted. Perhaps I am not an objective source but I don't think I am really all that much of a MLS fanboy. Ol Bsky may disagree but I really don't care what he thinks. MLS has its problems some of them they are improving, some not but I don't think you can find any sports league that is perfect.
This implies willfully doing so. That's not the case. The TM valuations are dependent on data available. Mls players can only be judged within the context of their league performances. So values are based on the quality of the opponents you can battle with. Compare that to the data TM can obtain of CShip players. These players, thanks to the load of cup tournements England has, play matches against the top players of the EPL. That provides info to assess the quality/value in the market of a player far more accurate then of an mls player. Who do they play that compare to epl stars? On top of that they also play against teams or are with teams that maybe just a season ago were epl clubs, but relegated. So mls players are assessed within the context of their environment, unless an additional element can be introduced like being part of an elite national team, which is unlikely for an mls player. Exception could become Vermeer if he's selected for the Orange team in the summer.
I criticize MLS because of how they position themselves. As @DHC1 points out, they are a minor league. There is nothing they do that is exceptional. Perfect? They are improving some things and not others? Are the areas they improving making progress on the top leagues or falling more behind?
you straight up wrote one thing and denied it the next. What context parameters are you talking about that are different from the conversation? What again is the data basis for your opinion that Transfermarkt values is a useless tool to compare MLS and championship? You’ve mentioned passports and anti-MLS bias, the latter of which you used Davies as an example (and that’s been debunked as an anti-MLS data point as there’s plenty of non-MLS comparable that put that to shame). Next, @KALM’s data doesn’t provide any clarity wrt anti-MLS bias. As @KALM stated, s/he hasn’t done the comparison with other leagues to say whether there’s an anti MLS bias or just a gut feeling. Until we see data for corresponding leagues, you can’t make any comparative reference. I don’t even think that data appear any noisier than one would expect in any data set but we’ll see if @KALM or another poster finds the time or interest to follow up.
all that is fine but again, I don’t recall you posting anything that is truly critical of MLS or engaging with someone other than someone you deem to be too hard on MLS. I also didn’t call you nor think of you as a fanboy but rather someone who is reflectively defensive about MLS given that your posts seem to usually defend MLS. perhaps you and others feel the need to add balance to the scale but I don’t see much moderation in how you choose to post. That’s your call of course but it would be interesting to see you and other reflexively MLS defensive posters find where you disagree with somewhat like minded pro-MLS posters. It’s the same in politics where most partisans only engage with the other party rather than calling out the differences between their own side of the aisle. There sure seem to be a lot here (and unlike bsky22, I think that makes it more interesting).
You have every right to do so. I don't have a problem with that. The main issue that I have with your posts is when you make personal attacks. You often make sweeping generalizations and obnoxious claims about people that have different views than you.
I'm not sure what I denied and then stated. Is it regards to Davies? Davies was a young player but had nearly 2 seasons of first team play before he was sold. That's very different than what @feyenoordsoccerfan is talking about with academy kids and their valuations, and that was my point there. The original parameters of this tiring discussion were about using transfermarkt valuations to determine player quality. @feyenoordsoccerfan has made great points to explain how transfermarkt comes to valuations, and he also points out that transfermarkt valuations aren't an indicator of player quality but rather expected transfer value--which makes total sense, and was my point to begin with (laid out in a much clearer manner than I managed).
Frankly I don't think I have ever thought of my posting habits before but looking back, I don't think I tend to be too critical in my posts (by critical, I mean of a team, league or person). The one major exception to that I think was Klinsmann. I don't post about it anymore, of course, but I ws critical of him after he cut Donovan. I have to admit that I was never a fan of Klinsmann but I remember making positive comments about him several times. I remember specifically giving him credit after the snowbowl (or whatever we were calling the game vs cr). For the rest of his time, I don't remember posting very much....I tended too keep my mouth shut. I think I take the same approach with Berhalter. I have said I think he should be fired. I don't think I need to say more. While I didn't like Klinsmann and it is a fact that the team was in a very bad spot when Arena took over, I said that it was on Arena that we didn't qualify. He had one thing to do...get at least a point vs t&t and he failed. I have tended to give MLS a bit more slack, I admit, because I remember the old NASL and understand that MLS is young and has only truly been financially viable for approximately half of its history. Now that it is truly viable, I believe that the quality of the play has improved greatly and I find especially encouraging the increased emphasis on developing and playing young players. the numbers of players and the minutes they have earned the past 2 years (primarily) are hopefully a sign of a real inflection point and will only continue to increase. I truly believe that you will see, very soon, a tangible return on the investment/committment some teams like FCD, Philly, Seattle, SKC. That return on investment, hopefully, will include a true uptick in transfers to European teams. Time will tell. By the way, I didn't take your post as a negative shot at me but I did feel like responding. We often disagree but you are always civil and I respect that.
i agree with pretty much all of this wrt MLS. Where we differ is that I think too many posters get defensive about where MLS sits in the global soccer meritocracy. It’s somewhere between the championship and B2, which is a nice level, albeit clearly in the minor leagues as both of those leagues are. think of the argument herein (that you’ve not been engaged in tbf): the original point was whether MLS has high quality players that simply do not exist at all in the championship. there’s a tremendous amount of data point from transfermarkt that show that the championship does, in fact, have players at least as good as the top end of MLS. In arguing the defense of MLS, the following points were made but not backed up: - passport issue are massive - MLS is specifically undervalued - transfermarkt values can’t be used to compare MLS to championship Good grief - what else can you throw on the wall without complete data? When asked the specific and most relevant question of who is actually materially undervalued, the answer is “I don’t know but I’m sure there’s a lot” It’s fine to think that MLS is as good as or even better than the championship but at least have the intellectual honesty to say that there’s no data basis for it. For Pete’s sakes, look at what’s happening during this transfer window! The most likely suspects have zero talk about them. Furthermore, the biggest sale in MLS history produced as much in his first year in the majors as Bobby wood did his first year in the B1 despite being sold for 4-5x what Bobby got. I do think it’s quite interesting that you felt free to criticize Klinsmann but don’t do so with Berhalter except when directly asked (usually by me....). In our discussions, you consistently defend the position that there’s no bias towards MLS in Berhalter (not sure whether you think arena had a bias) but again I don’t see you ever debating with someone who is pro-MLS.
I backed up each of those points. 96 out of the top 100 Championship players (by transfermarkt valuation--that's as far as the list goes, by the way) have EU passports, and one more is from a Cotonou country. I'm not the only one who has made points about the transfer values of MLS players. KALM provided historical data as well. But feyenoordfan pointed out, rightly, that transfermarkt attempts to estimate transfer fees, not quality, so I think at the end of the day the point is moot. It still can't be used to determine "quality", but MLS has to sell lots more players for the league's valuations to go up. I'm fine with that idea. Passport issues will still hinder many possible MLS transfers in the future even if more players get picked up by those leagues that don't have so many passport restrictions. Again, transfermarkt valuations are estimations of transfer price, not quality of player.
I think good reference points to the level of a league is how many players are part of top/upper ranking national teams. This is a very objective measurement as these players have the choice to play for good teams.
Ah a fellow fan from the late ‘70’s and ‘80’s when NASL folded and before the MLS, when we were a powerhouse that could almost qualify for the WC. When we could rely on a couple foreign based players and the NCAA to produce our elite players. Those were the days. Unfortunately MLS had to come along and ruin everything.
So in your opinion would you say TM is a poor indicator for comparing talent since you stated “TM is not about talent”. If so, do you know of an indicator that would be more useful?
Sorry, but I donot know any indicator or table that shows that kind of info. You know, talent simply is quality to be proven yet. That's why it's difficult to put it into numbers, especially as a value to predict future success. Time after time the people working with youngsters and with experience miss gems. So spotting talents and their growth isnot an exact science. A recent example in the Dutch scene is Mike Trésor Ndayishimiye, who was a NEC Nijmegen youth player. They did put him on loan with a minimal sum of 350k€€ buy option at Willem II. He proved to be a sensation and they're now banging their heads on the table at NEC after Willem II pulled him in for that bargain price. Edit: He came out of our second tier into the Eredivisie and at once showed his quality, while playing a level higher and killing the two top teams of the Eredivisie this season, Ajax and AZ. Talk about bursting onto the stage.
If there was a fooproof ranking system of the talent of every player on the planet somewhere, it would sure make transfer season easier on everyone.
Frankly, I don't rate MLS all that high on the scale. My (fairly confident) guess is that they are lower than the Championship (overall) and I have no clue where they stand with regard to B2. My biggest question wrt the Championship is where certain teams would fit in. Where would the top MLS teams fit into the table, for example? would they be relegation fodder? Mid table? I have no real idea. This is something that I am not qualified to comment on. I don't watch Championship. I get the impression that they (like other Euro leagues) are much more even top to bottom in their teams. MLS on the other hand, has some very good players at the top but there tends to be a much more rapid drop-off than other leagues. Also, the top players in MLS often are older players (in their prime or past) while the top players that could play at a higher level in Europe tend to be older. The trend in MLS is changing for some teams toward young players (mostly South Americans) but I do believe that both leagues have players that are capable of playing at a higher level. I also believe that the overall lelvel (including the middle and bottom) of MLS has improved and will improve as the overall talent and depth level in the US improves. My main argument there is not so much the conclusion about the quality of players in the Championship but I do have a serious problem with the data in Tranfermarkt. Obviously the transfer fees are factual and good data. The values, on the other hand, I believe should be taken with a grain of salt. Here is one cherry picked example: Compare Tim Ream to Reggie Cannon. I know they don't play precisely the same position but they are close enough (IMO). Cannon is 21 and one might reasonably believe have upside for the future that would add to his value. Ream is 32 and, at best, will hold his value for another year or two with no upside, at worst will begin declining by the end of this season as he tires. I personally believe Cannon is better right now but assuming they are equal players at the moment, do you believe that $3M for Cannon and $2.5M for Ream is a fair comparison? (The primary reason I chose Ream vs Cannon is that both have have common experience with the USMNT). I am not trying to say anything about the actual relative quality of Championship players vs MLS players but more that Transfermarkt is not a valid tool for arguing the point. I am a math teacher (not a mathematician or a statistician) and from my understanding of statistics. All data is not equal. We have a disagreement about the consistency of the results (that is ok). My opinion is that the lack of consistency is indicative that the data that is being used to determine the value is flawed in some way. There are many, many reasons for flawed data and I don't have any idea what the problem could be. Is some of it incorrect? is there key missing data? Are they weighting data incorrectly? etc. This one is tricky. It partially depends upon how you define value. European teams are willing to pay what they are willing to pay. Are Euro teams are willing to pay somewhere between $1.5 and $6M? If so, than I would say that those values probably fit into your tolerances (based upon your replies, if I am wrong than let me know). If the value is meant to represent a level of quality than that is harder to determine. Than the question, at least, partially becomes a question of where are MLS and European valuations coming in? Are European leagues underestimating the quality of MLS players? MLS teams overestimating the quality?
I think it's more the result of a risk assessment, the risk of losing money (transfersum and wasted paycheck without return in performance). For Euro talents/young players clubs have more info about how players are doing/have been doing at certain levels. There's also far more international contact at high level for Euro youngsters too at a constant rate. As these are missing from mls youngsters, there's a risk involved of not having the same info they're used to. Risk means reduction in valuation.
I have to admit that it is possible that I criticized him before the Donovan incident, I don't recall (I am not going to search through my posts...I'll leave that to someone else that wants to disprove me). At the beginning of his tenure, I tried to be patient. He was our coach and he deserved a chance to prove me wrong. There were times when I began to believe that perhaps he was the right choice. He obviously had the team playing well for several long stretches. I have to admit that cutting Donovan really bothered me. I didn't and still don't believe there was any legitimate reason for doing so. I know others disagree. I don't believe that Berhalter has done anything that comes close to doing that. As far as MLS and Berhalter, my main disagreement with you has been that you seem to believe it is some conscious attempt or scheme to promote MLS at the expense of European based players. I don't believe that to be true. I have a strong confidence in a person's ability to make mistakes. If we agree that some of Berhalter's choices are incorrect, I choose to believe that they are incorrect because of errors on his part. They could be errors in talent evaluation, errors in evaluating how important various qualities are, etc. As far as Arena goes, I don't know exactly what to believe. There was an awful lot of finger pointing and he said vs he said. Someone that had/has more access to inside information might have a better picture. Most of the quotes taken as evidence only give confirmation bias to one side or the other. I prefer to say Arena put us in a position to succeed, than failed and leave it at that. I believe we easily had enough talent and the right skills-sets on the team he had in T&T even with the omissions but he failed.
One thing that might influence perceived value is the quality of the soccer press in Europe and the USA. When respected magazines football desks of papers report on talents these most likely are being noticed by the scouting staff of clubs. I can't imagine a scouting staff without doing a daily routine of copying of media info about players. I have no clue how US soccer articles are being perceived by Euro clubs, but I've got a feeling they're not being seen as the same level of reporting and player analysis of the (decades old) established Euro ones.
That is possibly true. If so, it becomes less and less an accurate gauge/indicator of quality the further the players get from each other (ie best est two players on same team, than same league, Europe etc). Teams/players in MLS with no contact and very little transfer history would have extremely little relevance when compared to players/teams in Europe. Edit: the other factor complicating things when there is little common ground is if one or the other is changing in level. IMO world soccer is improving in level (like all sports) but I believe that US soccer is changing more rapidly. While there is little common ground wrt MLS and Euro leagues, there are certainly more top, young, US players in Europe now than there were 5-10 years ago. We have had our top players go to Europe before but never before has there been the what we see now. To me that is an indication that is an indicator of change. The question is how much change? The reason that is extremely important is that without current comparisons...the only way to estimate risk is by extrapolating and extrapolating can only be done if you have a certain level of understanding of the rate of change.
One thing you might be overlooking is that it seems you are assuming transfermarkt is used by European teams. Perhaps I am mistaken. I would assume that European teams would care very little, if at all, about what transfermarkt says.
I used be much more polite on here. I began to change after being repeatedly insulted by LD fanatics, JK haters, and MLS first fans. Not sure why it took me so long to understand that many of these people dont have views, but instead have attached themselves to a "cause" and that drives what they think. It is like being far right in politics. They dont make decisions on issues. But just agree with whatever the party does. So i dont respect the group of petty folks who cant think for themselves and insult those who have who can think and wont blindly follow along with the party line. I do make generalizations and think they have a lot of truth to them. The group think that goes on with these people guarantee it. I have no idea what obnoxious claims you are talking about. I have engaged in multiple long discussions with tomasbernal recently where it became clear he had no idea what he was talking about. It wasnt that his view was different, but there was basis for his views and the arguments were just poor reasoning. You are hard to argue with because your views are basically how you feel things are. It doesnt matter if nee info is provided because it doesnt change how you feel.
I would say, for example, that I consider it obnoxious to make the claim that all MLS fans are morons. (paraphrasing here but I have heard you use the term moron quite frequently in various arguments about various things). I consider that to be obnoxious, and blaming your bad behavior on other people's bad behavior is interesting...at best. Fair enough. I do hope you have a nice day. Edit: I do remember when your posts were more reasonable. I'm sorry that you changed.
Well said. I think all coaches and clubs have been on both sides of under valuing and over valuing players. I think a coach that can find gems others don’t can make a coach successful. I look at players as having strengths and weaknesses rather than talent, and those strengths and weaknesses are constantly changing. A players strengths can propel a player to a higher level where a weakness can limit a players level. Different coach’s/clubs place different values on different abilities. It seems way to complicated for some FIFA like score to rank players abilities and values.
agree that is a pretty good measuring point....at least for the best leagues. The further down you go, the less that applies (IMO). How far down...I don't know. I know that MLS has quite a few national team players but not necessarily for top/upper ranking national teams. My guess is that B2, Championship and lower tier first division teams would be in similar boats. For that matter, lower table teams in top leagues might be in a similar boat to 2nd tier teams/leagues wrt to national team players that are part of top/upper ranking national teams. (don't know on the last one..just guessing).