https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/et7qdr/andre_gray_gives_away_a_free_kick_from_kick_off/ FA cup, not premier league.... I think this should be a retake, as he kicks the ball before the whistle is blown. Center unfortunately not looking at the ball, so he misses it.
Referee signals to start and right before he blows the whistle the player kicks it. He clearly meant to kick it because instead of looking at the referee and giving an impression of "oh sorry I thought we were starting" he kicks it again. He knows what he's doing. IDFK is correct here. The lesson here is referees should signal and whistle at the same time. If Gray kicks the ball back to his player and kicks it long to the left winger who sprinted immediately, nobody would have said Gray kicked it too early.
It may be the most expected answer, the path of least resistance, what the game expects, etc., but it is not technically correct. The magic book tells us a whistle is required to start the game. That didn't happen, which makes a retake the proper answer. But even if you are going to overlook the lack of a whistle to start, the whistle would then stop the game, making it an inadvertent whistle, which would make the technically proper restart a DB. But I agree with the lesson--if a whistle is part of the restart, then the whistle and any other signal should be done at the same time. (I don't get a clear video from the link for some reason--but I would note that it is not uncommon for feeds like this to be slightly out of sync, such that perhaps there was no actual issue with the timing of the whistle.) But the truly bewildering thing here is that a pro player would kick the ball twice . . .
"Top six" matches: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor Man City - Tottenham: Oliver Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson Chelsea - Liverpool: Oliver Man Utd - Arsenal: Friend Man Utd - Liverpool: Atkinson Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor Chelsea - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Tierney Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Marriner Liverpool - Man City: Oliver Man City - Chelsea: Atkinson Man Utd - Tottenham: Tierney Man City - Man Utd: Taylor Arsenal - Man City: Tierney Tottenham - Chelsea: Taylor Arsenal - Chelsea: Pawson Arsenal - Man Utd: Kavanagh Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Dean Liverpool - Man Utd: Pawson Chelsea - Arsenal: Attwell Man City - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Marriner Distribution of these matches in the EPL so far: Taylor: 5 Atkinson: 3 Oliver: 3 Pawson: 2 Tierney: 2 Attwell: 1 Friend: 1 Kavanagh: 1
For the other semifinal: Aston Villa - Leicester: DEAN Is Dean the first referee to take charge of two League Cup semifinals in one season? (He did the first leg of the other semifinal.) Reminiscent of Cakir in the UCL in 2015-16.
Thoughts???? https://streamable.com/izc43 No reaction time vs. Unnatural position? VAR ruled no penalty.
No, VAR ruled it was not clearly wrong to not call a penalty. Given the high threshold for intervention in England, that's hardly surprising. Per the Laws, if seen correctly, of course that's a penalty. The arm is above the shoulder and has made the body unnaturally bigger--this ticks both boxes for "usually" an offence and there are no mitigating factors. The Laws explicitly say that instances where either of the above things are true still count as a handball offence even if the ball comes directly from the foot of another player who is close. That's exactly what happened here. The law change was supposed to make this a handball offence 100% of the time. I think in almost all other VAR-countries, this is changed to a penalty every time.
Semantics. Correct, Dean didn't call it originally and VAR upheld. But with your description that followed, how could this NOT be a clear and obvious error? I guess I am just done trying to figure it out in regards to the EPL. It is just such a bad look that they choose to "bend" the laws with these actions, yet when a hand/arm of an offensive player gets nicked by the ball before going into the net, they are being sticklers. I swear this league is sabotaging this system on purpose...
It isn't semantics. It's about the standard. VAR is responsible for clear errors. So when VAR doesn't send it down, it is not accurate to say that VAR ruled no penalty. It didn't. VAR ruled that it was not a clear error not to call a penalty. I agree with @MassachusettsRef that this would likely be considered a clear error elsewhere in the world for the reasons he set out. I think there are two reasons that didn't happen in the PL: (1) the PL has been using a higher standard for clear error than we see most other places. (2) England hates the new handball interpretations. England has long been on the deliberate-really-means-deliberate side of handling. So I'm not as surprised to see refs in England having trouble getting not only to agree this is handling, but to take the next step and say it is a clear error not to realize this is handling. (Which takes us back to why it's not semantics.)
It's really not semantics, at least as VAR was originally envisaged (and certainly not when discussing how England is currently applying it). The idea of something being "clearly wrong" was never advertised as always getting the correct decision per the Laws based on video. Take holding fouls, for example. Video replay could probably identify a defender holding an attacker on well over 50% of corner kicks. Holding is a foul, per the Laws, full stop. So should over 50% of corner kicks now result in a penalty? The same can apply--at least in theory--on handballs. Sure, per the Laws (certainly as rewritten), this is definitely a penalty. But it doesn't always get called that way. Historically, this particular play is something that gets called sometimes and is determined to not be an offence on other occasions. The fact that you asked for "thoughts" rather than just declaring this a miss, sort of demonstrates it's not clearly wrong for the entirety of football's stakeholders. A healthy minority of nonpartisan observers are probably okay with this not being called. And that is the standard VAR was originally introduced with. England is trying to hold to that standard when the rest of the VAR world has already decided not to do so. The rest of the VAR world has decided that handball can usually or almost always be an objective decision now, so the threshold for VAR intervention is low. England is operating with the "well, we've seen those not given before" line of thinking, which means that play should go on. None of that means the VAR was sitting in the control room and didn't think "well, I would have called this if I saw it" or "the classroom setting answer is penalty if this is shown in a clinic." The VAR--again, at least in England--is using a much higher standard to determine whether or not he should intervene.
I agree with you two, but my whole point (to which you both pointed out) is that according to laws and in any other league this would be a "clear and obvious error" so I assume the conversation with VAR to Dean was: "Did you see it hit his arm?", "yup, but not deliberate for me.(not that it should matter anymore)" " Ok, you're not wrong..." If Dean says he never saw it hit his arm, then maybe VAR sends it down?? I understand your points about the EPL not liking the new changes to the handling law. What confounds me still is that they will draw the line in the sand over calls like THIS, yet when it comes to the new offensive handling caveats, they have no problem pulling a ball out of the net for glancing off a player and then being scored by another.
Meh, not bad. Missed a few here and there. I think City got away with a bit. Matic deserved his 2YC /RC though. Overall an alright performance though. Didn't miss anything big and pretty much let them play. AR's did a smashing job correctly taking away 2 city goals for being offside. Great calls and both absolutely correct.
They only showed that replay once or twice quickly and I was watching the match on my phone *cough* while at work *cough* so I can't say that iI got a real good look at it. There was contact, but Sterling goes down like a feather as well. Couldn't tell if was even going to get to the ball. As a city supporter I wasn't gnashing my teeth that it wasn't called.
I think the handling claim at the close of the LC:CHE match deserves more discussion than the announcers and Mason gave it. if it hits his left hand, I agree no penalty. But it hit the right hand that spun behind him. There appeared to be some deliberateness to it.
Matchweek 25 Leicester - Chelsea Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Simon Long, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Oliver Langford. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Bournemouth - Aston Villa Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: James Linington. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Crystal Palace - Sheffield Referee: Andy Madley. Assistants: Neil Davies, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Antony Coggins. VAR: Tim Robinson. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin. Liverpool - Southampton Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: David Webb. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Daniel Robathan. Newcastle - Norwich Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger. Watford - Everton Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Richard West. Fourth official: Keith Stroud. VAR: Jonathan Moss. Assistant VAR: Dan Cook. West Ham - Brighton Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis. Man Utd - Wolves Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Harry Lennard, Marc Perry. Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh. VAR: Mike Dean. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Burnley - Arsenal Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Dan Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Jonathan Moss. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Gary Beswick. Tottenham - Man City Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Kevin Friend. Assistant VAR: Harry Lennard. Dean with another chance to shine. Let's see if he'll hide the ball from someone this time
"Top six" matches: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor Man City - Tottenham: Oliver Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson Chelsea - Liverpool: Oliver Man Utd - Arsenal: Friend Man Utd - Liverpool: Atkinson Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor Chelsea - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Tierney Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Marriner Liverpool - Man City: Oliver Man City - Chelsea: Atkinson Man Utd - Tottenham: Tierney Man City - Man Utd: Taylor Arsenal - Man City: Tierney Tottenham - Chelsea: Taylor Arsenal - Chelsea: Pawson Arsenal - Man Utd: Kavanagh Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Dean Liverpool - Man Utd: Pawson Chelsea - Arsenal: Attwell Man City - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Friend Tottenham - Man City: Dean Distribution of these matches in the EPL so far: Taylor: 5 Atkinson: 3 Oliver: 3 Pawson: 2 Tierney: 2 Attwell: 1 Dean: 1 Friend: 1 Kavanagh: 1
Agreed. The hand was sticking out behind him to hit the ball. But, his wrist was pinned to his backside, so it’s easy to see why it wasn’t called.
Having said that, watching his motion when I saw it live, that arm swung out behind him in a way that wasn't entirely "normal". Unfortunately, haven't seen a replay of it to this point in time.
66 minute. I would have cautioned for a dive in the PA. That was SOU’s second dive in the area. I would not have cautioned zings, but the second was bad.