Saturday 7 Dec 2019

In regards to the article, I posted this on the Euro thread this morning. Everyone loves to criticize the league (MLS) as being second rate , etc etc but very few first divisions in the world can boast the progress and growth this league has made in the last 23 years.

For obvious reasons , it will never be an EPL, La Liga, Serie A , Bundesliga or Ligue 1 as the funds are just not there. I know nothing about Belgium or Holland but I'd line MLS up against any other league in the world who claim to be better.

There is no way the J, C, K or A leagues are better. The Chinese have a lot of crooked money being thrown around as do the Russians but that doesn't mean they have good or stable leagues. Mexico pays pretty well but they attract second tier foreigners from Latin American and never any superstars. Mauro Camoranesi started out in Mexico then went Italy , won a WC but not too many others can do what he did. Beckham and Ibrahimovic never would think about or consider playing for Club America.


Same with Brazil and Argentina. I mean they have skillful players but the only ones who make real money are the ones who get sold to European clubs. Teams in Argentina go weeks on end before they can pay their players and coaches. Nobody in south of Napoli, Italy can compete financially with the MLS clubs.

The league now has infrastructure and stability but what MLS needs to work on next is development , coaching , styles , skills and tactics. I think when they get all those things in order, many things may change and MLS can turn into a viable league...

Is American big money finally warming up to soccer? | US ...

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2 points of contention for me. 1) I don't think anyone can say MLS will never be in the top 5 of leagues. This country is much bigger than the Euro countries. The potential is there if the American public embrace the sport more fully at some point. 2) I think MLS can be considered "viable" at this point...

 

Though the J League has a lot of similarities in how they manage their rosters, though I'd guess living in Japan for most superstars to be an acquired taste (though not unlike living in Kansas City or Atlanta, I guess...). Mostly a lot of good value foreign players with some exceptions. Vissel Kobe had Iniesta, Podolski, and Villa this year and spent the middle of the year floating above the relegation line before eventually finishing 8th.

 

Ok but Villa’s first choice was NYC and only went to Japan after he was released at age 37/38...

I recall during the J-Leagues inception year, they signed a lot of Brazilian and Argentine stars but that was way before MLS and things have changed since then.

As a general rule though , unless they are given loads of money , I’m sure most players and even coaches worldwide would want to live anywhere in the USA or Canada as opposed to Japan, China or Russia. It’s no wonder why Schellotto and Almeyda who coached Boca Juniors and River Plate respectively , are both in California. Same goes for Thierry Henry in Montreal.

 

Comparing MLS as a whole to other leagues is always tricky because people typically look at the best teams and ignore the chaff. The spread between the best regular season team in MLS history(LAFC) and last place (FCC) was 48 points. The year before the difference between 1st and last was 50 points. The Netherlands was 63 points last year and 59 the year before. Belgium was 43 and 40 (note those are from the 30 game regular season before they split into the play-offs). The gap from LAFC to the real rest of the pack (Vancouver, the 23rd best team at 34) was 38. In the Netherlands last year, 38 points back from Ajax was Heracles. In 7th place. Typically you'll find the absolute top end of those leagues is better (Ajax, PSV, Genk, and Brugge would win MLS) but the bottom end is worse than even someone like FCC.

So league wise, MLS is likely better than most of the Euro leagues. And I know people will get all defensive on that in places but look at the talent (from a where they were playing and starting for perspective) a team like Orlando, that finished 23rd in the league, has compared to a mid-table team in a place like Belgium or Netherlands. Nani, Pereyra, and Sane are typically outside of the grasp of those teams (and Mendez might be as well). Pretty much every team in MLS has the ability to get a player that the 4th or 5th best team in those other leagues couldn't. I think that most people are used to seeing teams that are just far and away better than most of the league and it skews opinions of those leagues. We talked up LAFC and them crushing people this year (+48 GD) or TFC in '17 (+37 GD) but those are nowhere near what the top teams in the Netherlands do (+87 and +72 last year) while 3rd place was at +34. Only 6 teams had a positive GD (13 in MLS did) and 5 teams had a GD of -30 or worse (only FCC did in MLS). But when it comes to discussing how good a league is people always talk about the very top and ignore what those other teams do (while of course focusing on a team like FCC in MLS and using that as a reason why MLS is bad).

 

I don't think a team like Atlanta United , coming from nowhere in their second year in the league drawing 70k fans to win it all , happens very often. It was a miracle Leicester City F.C won it all in 2016. .

Using the top leagues in Europe as an example, you have the same teams winning in each league.

Serie A - Juventus, Inter or Milan.

La Liga - Barca , Real or Atletico Madrid

Portugal - Benfica , Sporting or Porto

Dutch Eredivisie-Feyenoord , Ajax or PSV

Belgian First Division-Anderlecht, Club Brugge Standard Liège, Genk

Bundesliga-Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich,

EPL , Chelsea, Manchester United & City

France Ligue 1 Paris Saint-Germain F.C.

 

That year was a fluke in so many ways. Taking nothing away from Leicester who picked up 40 points over 14/15, but they won the league because every top team fell apart that year. Their 81 points was good enough to win the league twice this decade; the year they did and 10/11. Several years that would just scrape into the Champions league spot. Chelsea dropped 37 points from 14/15 to 15/16. Man City dropped 13, Arsenal dropped 4, Man U dropped 4, Spurs gained 6, and Liverpool dropped 2. Usually one or two of those teams make big gains and puts themselves at the top. But that year it was Leicester and West Ham that did the double digit point gain (West Ham improved 15 points). And they won it on a +32 GD, 9 less than the lowest winner's GD this decade (41 twice, and only one other time was a team below 50 and won the title).

What is amazing is that so far this year they are better than they were in their title year. Through 15 they are at +26 and are on a PPG of 2.33 compared to 2.13 in their title year. And that won't win them the title this year at that pace (Liverpool only needs to finish the last 22 games at 1.96 PPG, which is 4th place pace right now) and wouldn't have won them the title in any year since their title run. People talk about this stratification happening in MLS but it is nothing like most Euro leagues.

 

Even so, the relative quality from top to bottom in leagues in England and Germany really aren't the norm across Europe. In most countries the quality drops off rather precipitously. In leagues like Portugal's Liga Nos it's almost comically so.

 

And this is why Euro soccer bores me. Why watch when I already know the outcome before the season even starts.

 

Random fun for the evening. The Fire's new mural is complete.

 

On the other side of the coin, we across North America have a different mentality. We care about making the playoffs and possibly making and winning the MLS Cup. Many mid table clubs in Europe only care about qualifying for the Europa or Champions League and maybe win a domestic cup if they can because they know they can't win the league. If a club finish 3rd or 4th in the table and make the CL, that's also millions of Euros in TV, Sponsors and Merchandise that go to the team. Saving themselves from getting relegated also saves clubs millions as teams can easily implode by getting relegated. In that respect, that is why MLS is different and you just can't compare the UEFA leagues mindset to our league.

 

@falvo if i may get a bit metaphysical here...if those clubs care about the league only as a path to the Europa league, to me, that DIMINISHES the league. To such clubs, the league is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

 

Supposedly , making the old UEFA CUP was more important than the Europa league.

After living and working in Italy , I know for a fact that Italian clubs like Atalanta for example , was elated by making the Champions League and teams like Roma and Milan were both devastated by not qualifying for it.

They knew they would never win the league as Juventus won 8 straight scudetti and 4 Coppa Italia domestic cups so their only goal was to make the CL. The bottom half of the table clubs only care about not getting relegated.

Maybe its a screwed up mentality than most North American sports fans are used to , but that is pretty much the way teams and their fans care about and approach games.

 

Most likely the one that doesn't draw Leon, Olimpia, or Saprissa when their most recent competitive match was three or four months ago.

 

I think the sweet spot is something like a major college football conference. There are powerhouses and there are minnows, but exactly how it all shakes out remains to be seen and in any given year a team might end up quite a ways away from expectations.

In one sense, ho hum, LSU and Bama both won 10+ games as always, and Vanderbilt and Kentucky can't get a look in as always. What actually happened, for the initiated fan, was an absolutely thrilling ride, rich with narrative and historical import. The EPL at its best is like that.

Eh, it still leaves you with a bunch of league games with massive stakes at the end of the season, even when the title may be decided.

 

Those clubs also make millions from making the Europa or Champions league. If a club loses out as AC Milan did this year, then that club will lose lots of revenue. Atalanta bless their hearts are a good club and playing above their heads but fans in Italy and abroad care less that they are in the CL and UEFA as well as the Italian federation would much rather have seen a Milan in the tournament. They along with Cagliari are both having a stellar year so far but that won’t last from one season to the next. They will be lucky if they aren’t in relegation battles in the next few years. Maybe even sooner than that after they sell all of their top players to big clubs.