MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #2426 DHC1, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    you don’t have to get worked up over anything but I think there’s a fundamental issue when USMNT coaches treating players differently depending upon the league that they’re in. The bias is so obvious in its consistency and I think that this structural bias is extremely damaging to the USMNT.
     
  2. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Pomykal is different in that I think he wants to be at FCD right now. He wants to be there, they need him equals big new contract. Eventually he'll be sold or he'll be an MLS lifer and that is totally up to Pomykal.

    On the other hand, Cannon doesn't have a big new deal. Why? Because FCD isn't going to pay him $650k/year. He's not worth that to them and he wants to go abroad. I think he gets sold this winter. One of Servania or Cerillo is going to move after next season as well. Servania is going to be the hot new property everyone is talking about by mid-summer.

    So I can understand why people castigate FCD at times but they more than anyone are attempting to create a conveyor belt of players moving on to bigger and better things.
     
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  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    If FCD sold Cannon, that would definitely be a sign of a change in thinking.
     
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  4. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think pragidealist has a great read here (http://positionalplayscholar.com/index.php/2019/11/17/usmnt-vs-canada-11-17-19/ ) about what he sees Berhalter doing. He still thinks the idea is for the left back to be able to play left centerback at times while the right back can move between conventional right back or slide into midfield at times as a second defensive mid. He thinks Dest should be great at that like GB originally though Adams would. Sees one CB as a passing hub and the other as a sweeper up of others mistakes. So Robinson doesn't fit as someone who could play left CB at times and CCV isn't a passing hub or a fast sweeper. Youth teams will take time and lumps to get this down but as they move up and the system is the same it should be easier for them.
     
  5. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    New interview with Dan Hunt including player movement. He says he like to keep them all but won't keep those who are ready to move on to be better and feels a responsibility to the national to develop players even if hat means losing them. They are still trying to sign Cannon so I imagine they are a fall back option if Cannon can't get a good deal to move. If some team asked about Pomykal or others and it's a reasonable deal and the player wants to move they'll let them go.
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I thought the write up a lot of mental gymnastics to argue that gregg’s system was still being used even though it was quite opposite. YMMV.

    Pigeon-holing players around a system is a terrible idea for a national team and in this instance the argument still doesn’t really hold water as the U23 replacements don’t fit the mold of LB as CB or fast sweeper either. I think that CCV could actually be a pretty good sweeper but I have used that phrase in soccer since the 80s.
     
  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think Mexico exploited this non-symmetry and we gain nothing by it. Canada also tried to exploit it, but it is helped by the 4-2-3-1 shape we adopted in the last game.

    There is no reason you couldn't have Robinson or Gomez or Bello or KHF on the left and Dest on the right. You can create the 3 man backline by dropping Adams in. What better sweeper in a 3 man back line than Tyler Adams? McKennie could also drop in, he plays CB for Schalke on occasion.

    There are many ways to skin the cat.
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course. This was a big problem with Klinsmann.

    In general though, coaches are more likely to pick players that they are familiar with.
     
  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    But, in general, most coaches start by getting to know as many players as possible. Very few come in with 20 guys and don't look at anyone else. That has been the strange thing. Yes, Gregg is not familiar with Holmes, but he had 11 months to get familiar with him.
     
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  10. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You mean the Duane Holmes that Berhalter called to the gold cup squad but dropped due to injury? If only Berhalter would give Tyler Adams a chance at cm. He's only played right back for Berhalter, and now Berhalter won't even call him up anymore!
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I know that you are annoyed at the stridency of certain posters (probably me) but do you really think that Berhalter has taken a broad look at the pool and treats players the same irrespective of the league that they play in?

    It's easy to get bogged down in specific players*** but there's an overall trend that's pretty hard to ignore IMO.
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    *** Wrt Holmes, you are correct that he was invited to Gold Cup and missed because of injury.

    Since then, he's recovered and is playing consistently in the Championship. Furthermore our USMNT results have been concerning and we could clearly use some more midfield options IMO.

    What do you think did Holmes do wrong to get pushed from invited to being off the squad entirely?
     
  13. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    He has been healthy the past two windows and was healthy in March. He only made the GC roster because of an injury to Lletget. He was called into one camp. Adams was hurt all year, so your analogy is poor.
     
  14. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Adams thing was pure unadulterated sarcasm. Holmes got called up another time other than gold cup I thought. I haven't watched him play since his return from injury so I have no idea why he hasn't gotten another call. from the little I've seen of Holmes, I'd prefer him over Roldan.
     
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  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't know how he's been since return from injury. I'm not Berhalter and I have no idea why he's been left out since injury. Berhalter must rate him though since he got the gold cup call.
     
  16. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Holmes is only viewed by GB as a 10. Never mind that he plays several other positions well for Derby and a 10 in GB's system is mostly played by guys who are 8s.

    Holmes is then competing with Lletget and Roldan for a spot. He was asked directly and said he is, "comfortable with [Roldan]". This can't be based on performance for the USMNT. It all goes back to Sunk Cost. Roldan was one of the selected players who GB built the System for. He can't be dropped because he played so much.
     
  17. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    For me it all comes down to making the squad an anti-competitive bunch. Once a guy gets a few calls, the excuse if he is poor is that he knows the system. Well, anyone who would have gotten every call up would know the system by now so it is a completely circular argument that favors whoever gets there first regardless of performance for club or country. For a team that until these last couple games has struggled mightily with complacency and lacked fight and competitiveness, the lack of competition for spots on the team seems indictave. It's not even the Euro vs. MLS thing to me as much as it is the guys who got the first calls in the first camp cupcake are entrenched and that's that. Sets a very poor tone for competition within the team, primarily because of the high bar for either breaking into or being left out of "the group."
     
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  18. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Right, that is the downside of the whole thing. If the idea was to do it like a club team and get 20 guys and teach them Man City play; it didn't work. It will never work because: Man City is 30 deep and can buy anyone to replace someone. The NT pool is fixed, and if any of your 20 turns out to not be good enough, you are stuck with them. Further, if any of your 11 is hurt, you are forced to play the players that have proven to be failures.

    You can integrate one new player ever few windows. But, there are only 5 windows in a year.

    That is only the theoretical part. The USA only has 2-4 players that can play the way they are trying and none of them are the players that the coach can get the month of extra time with. In other words, the USA gets an extra month with their domestic based players, but not one of those players can execute the System at World Cup level. Maybe one. Some can do some parts but are totally lacking in the other phases of the game as to be net liabilities.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Instead of accepting reality and demanding that things are "fixed", MLS fans continue to try to convince people that the league knows what it is doing with player development. It will be interesting to see what happens to all these young kids they have signed.

     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I remember when a so called USMNT fan kept going on and on about how Chelesea overpaid for Pulisic and he was only worth $20M. [btw, this poster also thinks the USMNT's success is based off the success of MLS] I'd bet that New Casle is feeling more "ripped off" than Chelsea at the moment. Can anybody imagine a team paying anything close to what they were asking for Long?

     
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  21. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Almiron is a very talented player. His coach believes in his quality and thinks he will produce. He may just be a bad fit at Newcastle.

    You mean $6m for Long? Yes, I think someone will definitely pay that.
     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Where do you think Almiron would fit?

    As for Long, I think he's a very good fit for the USMNT as a starter with Brooks but I can see how his lack of ball skills and age would make him less attractive to many club teams.
     
  23. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know. Somewhere that has a more open attacking style. A team that is less mediocre than Newcastle.
     
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    apologies as i edited my comment while you were responding. nothing important.

    I'm not sure that it's fair to say that a player who looks bad for a mediocre team deserves to play for a better one. My guess is that he would have a tough time beating out the competition for minutes with top table teams - there are a lot of good attackers on those teams.
     
  25. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I think it simply showcases how PL clubs often overspend on players or how often the clubs misuse certain attacking players.
     

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