Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that I might be beating a dead horse, this is not American football. I guess that many who said that the team under Berhalter would get the tactical coaching that Klinsmann and Arena did not provide got their wish.

    The team attacks in preplanned patterns of movement. Off-ball runs and passes are worked out in practice so they can be executed at speed on the field. (This feels like a very American football way of trying to play, but many top teams drill at least some limited sequences now.)

    https://slate.com/culture/2019/11/us-soccer-gregg-berhalter-canada.amp
     
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  2. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    That was a good article. I remember my first year of coaching competitive soccer we were playing a team from a more rural area. They had three coaches, a head coach, an offensive coordinator, and a defensive coordinator. They actually had plays they tried to call on the field. It was one of the most absurd things I've ever seen and we beat them badly even though my team was not a top-level side by any stretch. This feels a lot like that attitude extending all the way up to the national team.

    Another aside, when I first started going through coaching courses I was pretty obsessed with watching soccer and reading up on things that Arsene Wenger and Pep Guardiola were teaching their teams. All of the great coaches taught basic-intermediate concepts about spacing and diagonal passes in more or less the same ways. I get to the higher level USSF courses and they have decided to totally rephrase everything and do complex statistical studies about why what they're teaching is definitely the best. Then I would go to a course a few years later and they would have changed all the terminology and prepackaged phrases but still have elaborate statistical studies to back it up. I remember the first time I heard "line-splitting passes" another coach from my club who was from England and had played in the Everton setup said "those are just diagonal passes, I learned about them in 1981." Yet here was USSF acting like they'd invented them.

    In short, Earnie is doing the same thing and recreating the wheel. Gregg is nothing more than a logical extension of the entire USSF culture. It reminds me of the political debates where we hear that Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders are these crazy radicals and only racists or people who want free stuff will cling to them. The truth is it's the disenfranchised masses who want to send someone to DC to really mess with things. I'm to that point with US Soccer. I wanted someone like Wynalda to get sent into USSF, not because I thought he would do a good job, but because I thought he would do his best to truly "drain the swamp" of all the corrupt bureaucrats who think they're the smartest people in the world and can tell us what to believe then berate us for being ignorant children when we don't.

    tl;dr - Gregg is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.
     
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  3. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Direct free kicks are the most beneficial and we have always been poor at those. Acosta, Jozy, and Shea are the only ones I can remember from the last 10+ years.

    With players able to take up positions closer to goal, the likelihood of scoring from a set piece is more than 50 percent higher than that from a possession in the normal run of play. Based upon data collected by American Soccer Analysis, direct shots from free kicks are scored about 7.5 percent of the time, whereas crosses from free kicks are scored around 4 percent. Approximately 3 percent of corner kicks result in a goal. Penalty kicks are converted at around a 75 percent rate. Taken together, it is advantageous for a team to accumulate as many set piece opportunities as possible.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-dominating-scoring-so-far-at-the-world-cup/
     
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  4. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
     
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  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    43% of goals in the World Cup were from set pieces.

    Is the last goal we had from one in 2017? If there's a problem with our goal scoring, I'd look there first. If we haven't scored any in two years, we are missing a little under half the goals that we should have....
     
  6. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
    Well, we need a pattern of play to score, so direct free kicks? Bleeeech.

    U-23's yesterday, on a rare positive opportunity. Free kick about 35 yards out. Send it in? Not really. Short back pass, then long lateral/back pass. By then, under duress, high lofted ball from near midfield. Out of bounds. But the pattern was perfect I guess.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Please stop these comments - I'm salty enough already!
     
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  8. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't think of the last quality counter attack under Egg Head which led to a real solid SOG.

    Can anyone?

    When was the last time our press in the middle 3rd led to a turnover and a SOG in transition?
     
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Our only goal against Mexico this year was on a fast direct play (maybe not a counter as it was straight from the keeper).
     
  10. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like it is more like 28% globally, in all leagues. That includes all set pieces so penalties, direct, indirect, corners, throw-ins. The most effective set pieces as far as scoring (penalties and direct kicks) requires us from the run of play to get the ball to dangerous players in dangerous spots.

    The System tm is not doing that so we are back to square 1!
     
  11. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USSF has a lot of systemic problems but I watched Earnie's squads at AZ and Philly and I never saw them try to run robotic, mechanical, read-progression systems.

    IMO, GB is driving the USMNT bus. As Arena pointed out, Berhalter is trying to impose a club system (leaving aside if it is an effective club system) on an international squad.

    As many of us said at the beginning of GB's tenure, such an approach is problematic.
     
  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Respectfully disagree. I think Stewart is trying to lead a dramatic overhaul of all of American soccer as if one could push on a string.
     
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  13. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USSF does need to be overhauled. Reyna tried when he was the YTD and published the consensus Style of Play. http://resources.ussoccer.com/n7v8b...s of Play U.S. Soccer Coaching Curriculum.pdf

    Klinsmann was then hired, embraced Reyna's work and tried to institute "proactive". The Athletic Council and Stewart are continuing that maturity trend with the emphasis on "dictating play".

    Berhalter is the only one who decided to try to get the squad to learn and drill NFL-style read-progression plays.

    Let's be honest; A lot of posters and the media complained that prior coaches, except for Bradley, did not "coach" the USMNT on how to play.

    Well Berhalter is doing just that!

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Gregg is doing many very stupid things and is ignorant on how to run a national team.

    My larger point is the federation likes to act like they're the smartest organization around and I don't think it's a coincidence they hired a coach and GM who act the exact same way.
     
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  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2965 juvechelsea, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    i am on my "this whole thing is arrogance" kick today and what part of "only i know the real way to play soccer" doesn't sound arrogant? i had a handful of friends growing up who would rather watch pretty soccer than win. a couple of them voiced the idea they would rather we qualify less often but play the right way. 90+% of us don't believe in that, prefer winning. and thus, the value of style is what it adds to winning. if the team looks worse and doesn't win it is laughable to suggest you are secretly on to the Way that takes us to higher heights. at minimum, objectively prove it. or this is some seriously arrogant sh*t. "only we grasp soccer. you don't. if you just give us more time, we will deliver." right now, we have regressed. if practicality enters into this at any level, ditch.

    the whole dutch thing we are trying is superficial and naive. we do not understand what we are trying to do. we do not consider whether it works with our people or our opponents. we don't even put in the effort to mold the YNT to populate this style.

    this is a running theme in USSF right now is adopting the hollowed out shell of a thing, that you don't know how to properly fill like the powers do it, and then proclaiming your xerox of a xerox of a xerox will turn us into Europe. if you don't actually know what you are doing, you are just a vague mimic, and no, you aren't going to become them. because they are putting in more resources, training up their kids from 5, etc. etc. this isn't just a mission statement we sent out to the copiers to have made into an office sign.

    at least when we were a counter team we understood the principles of what we were doing.
     
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  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i've said it dozens of times, it is silliness to talk "national style of play" when each successive coach thinks it's something else, and when you are getting rid of central development in favor of handing soccer to the academies. who exactly is training them in the national style? the YNT in occasional camps? there is no residency. how often do they meet. is it the same rarely meeting issue as the senior team?

    and the reality is that while acting like they are engaged in some noble action, oh, what we need is some constant way of playing, i smell some hint of empire building. you notice we don't work from age 5 up and create the players we think we want. we instead go top down and each coach gets to try to create his little empire in his image. "i decree we shall all now play out of the back." and for a time a whole bunch of people parrot it and talk like it's how we all play now.

    one should question the value of the exercise looking at how our various GB-xerox NTs and YNTs are doing.

    and if it changes each time we have a coach it's empire it's not an organic style of play that befits the nation. they aren't sitting there looking at america and saying hmmmm you know what would work for you, and it's not always what i use.......they're like haha those suckers gave me the job, and a bunch of power, haha, we all play BerhalterBall now. if you have to change how we play how is this the national style?

    and then the next guy in at whatever point he gets canned will be selling his own National Style In A Box TM. to a country of 300+ million. where the academies are the primary training grounds. absurd.

    the coach should be able to shape the senior team as he sees fit but this totalizing gamechanging on down to U15 rubbish needs to go. i want a coach who focuses on the current senior team pool, picks a formation appropriate to them, and can then game manage his way out of a paper bag if the match isn't starting out like we hoped. this is not too much to ask. all this other change agent stuff, go to church on sunday for your religion please.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    re set pieces: duh. i have suggested people like mendez who can hit a direct ball. they are not in camp. if you do not have people to hit the ball on cage well, we should emphasize indirect/cross. the list of players we have who can get in for headers is lengthy. some of the forwards. long. brooks. zimmerman. the second half isn't even a debate. we have the targets for a dead ball game already. most of them have done it a couple times already.

    my impression was when we got kicks out around 40 from goal, we often just put the ball back in play with a pass. we don't take a shot with a kick. i wouldn't be surprised if lumping it into the box is considered crude, like whacking clearances out of the back. but i agree on the %s and i remember our history and i see our personnel. why on earth aren't we doing it? is it not pretty enough? does it not follow some dictate to slowly pass up to their end?

    that being said, i feel like the corners -- the guaranteed dead ball chances -- are not precise enough. maybe this is a function of all the mids being worker bees. if you want a ball dropped right on a head you kind of need a real playmaking technician. or maybe we don't practice enough.

    also point out that while we mope about being second fiddle to mexico, one of your equalizers is dead balls. maybe it's all the focus is on style in the run of play and pretending that decides games. but i've seen plenty of winning ugly or winning on your only chance. everything is not down to matching mexico run of play all day. they can dominate you, you keep them out of net, you score your free kick. voila, win. the idea this is all decided by are you pretty enough and how is the system working, is rubbish. you keep them out of our net. (we seem to think that's optional and we can put in backs who can't defend.) you then score more than they do. duh. this can be done by a system, but can also be done by taking chances when the system doesn't work at all.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    along the lines of the people who are like, maybe have CP in front of net on deadballs instead of poorly taking some......i mean, if we continue to muddle at 9, why isn't he the 9? kind of like in past cycles dempsey and donovan would get moved where we needed some talent. sometimes striker, sometimes wide.
     
  19. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Lima to Zimmerman. But that was against poor opposition in Camp Cupcake.

    Some of those Cuba goals were probably from turnovers. But again, incredibly poor opposition.

    But we don't try and win the ball. We are passive and sit back and recover the ball. Which is Bradley's specialty. The whole team does the crouch and hope for a misplayed pass defense Bradley has learned to do later in his career.
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree on the USSF arrogance. Claudio Reyna made the same point a couple of years ago and got some flack from the USSF GOBs

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-...ms-united-states-soccer-were-far-too-arrogant
     
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  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    "We have coaches who think they're better than they are....I don't think they see the behaviors of the people [abroad] and how they coach in their day-to-day work.....When I look around at certain levels I don't see progress happening."

    Reyna gets it.
     
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  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The game today is vital for me. Today I'll see if Egg is the type who can learn from his mistakes.

    Because I'm absolutely resigned to Berhalter staying as our coach. I don't see any scenario where he'd get kicked out: even if the guys in Europe refused to come, they'd replace them with MLSers; even if all the fans stopped caring, the source of money are the fans of the other team anyway.
     
  23. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I either missed that article or had forgotten about it in my post-Couva depression but that is a fantastic piece. Here's the part that stood out to me and rings extremely and depressingly true in my experience:

    "But the one thing that we haven't realized, I think, when we have our American soccer people go abroad to learn, I don't think they see the behaviors of the people and how they coach in their day-to-day work. That's the shake-up I hope people realize more than anything.

    "You go to a U14 and U15 coach in Spain, and they are 10 times more humble than a U14 or U15 coach in Connecticut, New Jersey or New York, who thinks they're the next Pep Guardiola or Patrick Vieira.

    "Until we realize that -- that we're not as good as we think we are at all levels -- then I think we're going to continue being what we are, which is mediocre."

    So many USSF coaching course horror/absurd stories but one of my instructors in, I think my C course, openly mocked the French federation for structuring sessions where a scrimmage was often first. I took my C in 2012 or maybe 2013. Good thing France hasn't done anything since then... Like Claudio said, we either don't take lessons or take the wrong lessons when we review other countries' setups.

    After reading this, it's no coincidence Claudio sent his son away to Europe at the first opportunity. I also don't think it's a coincidence that he helped build one of the few functional MLS academies that just sold a teenager for $2 million to Europe.
     
  24. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Berhalters will milk this gig for every last drop of liquid gold. There ain't no conscience on their part.
    We need to see if , and hope that, General Egg can learn from his mistakes, for we are stuck with him. Let us take consolation in that the Allies did eventually win WWI, even though they were saddled with the utterly Berhalterian General Haig.
     
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  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Learn you say. In his latest public outing, Egg said we have to manage moments like Liverpool. He's way out there on the red hot end of the arrogance spectrum. As Wordsworth once said, the mind is a wonderful thing and there is nothing it settles on with more delight than itself.
     
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