MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Atlanta United are 4 years old. it's a bit early to judge their youth dev.
     
  2. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    No, I realize you have misread my post. I'm simply discussing the relative level of MLS to UEFA leagues. Which is what this thread is for. By analyzing where players transfer from and to.

    Indentifying 14 yr olds, developing them to move to Europe at 16-18, doesn't tell you anything about the quality of MLS. Or how an above average MLS midfielder, like Roldan, will fare against EPL midfielders playing for teams like Ireland or Denmark.

    Since Gregg is banking on the bulk of his team being based in MLS, this is important.

    I agree with you, MLS is more important to the USMNT in developing 18 yr olds than in supplying average 24 yr old midfielders.
     
  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Dude, FCD has a youth development partnership with Bayern Munich. The staff is there right now, along with 5 youth players (USYNTers Roberts, Reynolds, Cerrillo, Pepi, and Rodriguez).


    You can hire one person from Ajax. Hell........................plenty of clubs have done that
    .
    What we don't have is a nationwide community of youth talent scouts and youth coaches. That has to be developed and its going to take time.
     
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  4. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Christian Pulisic, the soccer player, is a product of Pops Pulisic who seems to have been an Earl Woods or Richard Williams type of figure.

    MLS have produced players who within a year have become starters in the top leagues. I'm not sure what standard people are trying to hold the league to. It's a second tier league in a country in which men's soccer is a 2nd tier sport.
     
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  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I get that. But you're all the place with your statements that amount to little.
    Agree. Very few players have the FIFA-legal option to move Europe before 18. You've made another fatuous point.
     
  6. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    What Pulisic also had was a Croatian passport, which meant he could move to anywhere he wanted in Europe at 16. Same for Gio Reyna (who has a Portuguese passport).

    What's really odd is a very steady stream of moves to Europe for our young players. Clubs don't want 25 year old MLSers. They want the 18 year old raw materials. Its want they want from Japan, Argentina, and Belgium too.

    So we have this wave of young Americans (many MLS academy products) moving to Europe. People are acting like this somehow doesn't count. As if Richie Ledezma or Alex Mendez or Chris Gloster or Chris Richards or Uly Llanez or Taylor Booth or Johan Gomez (who just moved from FCD to Porto) or Joseph Scally................the list goes on ad naseum...............don't somehow count as MLS products.

    These are MLS products. You can't demand that MLS invest a ton in their academies and player development, and then say Weston McKennie doesn't somehow count. He was at an MLS academy for 7 years. For Pete's sake.

    This is exactly how its supposed to work.
     
  7. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Teams still want 25 y/o MLSers. Nagbe and Long have gotten interest. Trapp had interest last year. I
     
  8. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    The biggest gap is coaching. We need more guys like Eric Quill at the DA level. Guys who can scout, see bringing in Richards and Cappis to his Houston Texans team, and then taking those potential talents and making them better.

    We need more scouting, better coaching and more sheer raw numbers of potential because the failure rate is probably close to 95%. Thankfully the growth of the game is increasing the total numbers. More and more USL teams are appearing, USL 1 and MLS teams that are all starting DAs. More foreign players are staying here and getting into coaching, which usually starts with youth coaching. More money in the game means hopefully more guys will stick with coaching.

    One of the other big things is that foreign teams are noticing and putting in the effort to scout, trial, train, and evaluate our teenagers. Barca built an academy here and it's bearing fruit. Bayern teamed up with FCD. PSG has an academy team near Chicago. Other clubs are aligning with various youth programs.

    Everyone wants now to be better. Three years ago it was a handful going over to sign with clubs at 18. Now it's closer to 25. Next year will hopefully be even more. The trajectory is heading the correct direction. If the fed will stop shooting itself in the foot everything would improve. But MLS is improving in this. More teams actually trying would further our growth too.
     
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  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Right. They wandered in the darkness for, what, 22 years and then decided to partner with a team that knows how to do it. Great. Little late for Acosta and others of his generation. But again, better than 22 other teams. Was exactly my point. Not sure why other MLS teams haven't done it.

    But FCD hasn't developed anyone for a Top 4 league through ages 18-21. NYRB has. But, it is no slight. Nobody but NYRB has.

    We wouldn't need all 24 or 30 MLS teams to be on the same page as FCD is on if they would just let the teams compete with each other for talent.
     
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  10. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Not every kid can move to Europe at 16 or 18. Not every kid is identified at 14. There has to be an option in this country, for players from this country, to actually become an elite player.
     
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  11. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oscar Pareja set up FCD's academy. Don't Colombians count? They were pretty hit or miss early but don't forget about the two Argentines that spent a few years there and are/did play(ing) in England and Mexico. I think the players coming up are just better now. Acosta was the best of a weak group. The players coming up now mostly are either bigger, faster, stronger or have one thing (left foot, dribbling, assists) that they are very good at.
     
  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Apparently, only the u24s who play in
    MLS are any good. One out of eleven starters not ftt try on mls
     
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  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yeah, but there's this bizarre separation from reality.
    Euro clubs are snatching MLS youngsters up at a fast pace, and then people say that MLS isn't developing players.

    If you take all of the elite youth out of MLS, guess what........................there's less elite youth to actually play in MLS. Its a wave of kids going over now for folks who take the time to pay attention.

    Two days ago we had news of Scally moving to Germany.

    Yesterday's news was that Busio of SKC is probably getting sold soon too.
    Already turned down one Euro offer. They're in "maximizing their profit" mode at the moment. It'll happen.
    1195170675213950976 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #2414 DHC1, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
    Clint - I think you're barking up the wrong tree in that I'm not part of the crowd that says that MLS isn't developing players. Let's be clear: I agree with you that MLS team's DA academies are increasing the amount of coaches and scouts at all levels and that's very good for the USMNT. I also strongly agree that the world's best teams are much more interested in finding younger/more-raw talent that they can refine/develop than they are in taking mid 20s players.

    I'm focused here on the bias in the coaching staff: there's been remarkable consistency in MLS representation in all of our national teams, well beyond what's reasonable given our pool and that having only one out of eleven starters for the U23 is an obvious point that there's a huge preference.

    do you think a 10:1 ratio is reflective of the actual U23 talent mix vis-a-vis MLS vs. other leagues?
     
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  15. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think anyone is disputing you as it's a fact. I would point out that the missing generation was so poor that very few went to Europe and then a lot of older players in Europe came back to MLS. So at the moment the older fading players and missing generation that wasn't good enough to ever move to Europe is the peak age for the full national team. The more talented players are still a bit too young and most have moved to Europe where they are trying to move into the full teams of their clubs. A lot of those who have have been called up to the full team. There are a few more in second divisions who arguably could be called up and would replace an MLS'er by doing so. I haven't seen one person in favor of Lovitz but a recent Euro who moved up and got in will probably start over him. I also agree that Robinson should be ahead of him but also yes other MLS players should too. We need the young players to go visit Treebeard, drink some Ent juice and grow up quicker and displace all of the mediocre generation immediately.
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Respectfully, there are lots of posters who see no MLS preference or a deserved one. Look at pretty much all of @Suyuntuy's post. In this poll, approximately 20% of posters believe there's no preference - perhaps their voice is overly loud on BS however.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/wh...ference-for-mls.2103213/page-21#post-38305547
     
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  17. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The Academy is one piece. Maybe the easiest piece to get right. Look around for the best 14 yr olds, playing for pay to play clubs, and bring them in to play for free.

    It is the other pieces that FCD is just getting around too. They had to move out Pareja to do it. Just like NYRB had to move Petke and Houston Cabrera. Why SKC had to give Vermes total control and a 5 year contract.

    1. Play Academy players and play them a lot
    2. Move established players out to make room for kids
    3. Sell kids when the kids are ready, not when you can afford to

    FCD still hasn't shown they have moved to #3. All the talk from Hunt is to not move a player like Pomykal, but to keep him and win a Cup with him. Kind of like RSL has done and failed at.

    All three of those will hurt you in the standings. Which is why the whole organization and the coach have to be 100% behind it. There have to be internal quotas on U20 minutes and internal rules that force players into the 11.
     
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  18. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sort of agreeing with them. I admit more MLS'ers are being called in but it's just because the Euros are so young and not quite ready. I can see it be almost no MLS'ers in a year or two. A lot of the MLS'ers being called in should have been in Europe but weren't good enough to go. they are the right so they get called in until the younger more talented group is ready and pushes them to the curb. Ledezma is an example. He's on the cusp of playing first division in Holland. Once he does he will get called up just like Dest did. So many are very close to that scenario.
     
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  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Richards said that FCD was initially not interested in him. He then went to the Texans had great success and then was picked up by FCD!

    Good coaches who recognize talent is key. Initially the FCD staff did not believe that Richards would be any good and cut him from a trial and sent him back home to Alabama!

    “Every team when they play Dallas in the [Development Academy] it’s like the World Cup for them,” Richards said. “I had extra motivation because of what happened in the summer. As soon as I got the schedule I circled FC Dallas.”

    Richards and the Texans defeated FC Dallas in league play, marking the first time the Texans had ever beaten Dallas in the older age groups. They went on to win the national championship, the first for the club, but before that victory, Quill had already begun to think about what would truly be best for Richards.

    He believed his star defender would be better served by making a move to FC Dallas the next season.

    That led Quill to approach FC Dallas academy director Luchi Gonzalez with the selfless offer of sending Richards and midfielder Christian Cappis to FC Dallas.


    https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/who...ck-prospect-who-has/ombmqco8e5pd1esbxol2jwrt7
     
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  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You are of course entitled to your position. What about Carters Vickers and ARobinson who are starting?

    I don't want to say that MLS is terrible and there should be no players but 90%+? There's clearly a double standard here and I think it's being driven at an institutional level. It's no surprise that Arena blurted out,"there are people in MLS who play that position" as that appears to be the default and unless a player breaks through to a much better team than MLS, they can't get USMNT at any level. That is purely for MLS' benefit now that they have realized that a lot of our elite prospects are heading to better programs.

    I think it is very doubtful that we will have "almost no MLS'ers in a year or two" under this administration. I'm not sure I want that in any event but i certainly don't want there to be a 2/3 allocation of spots to domestic players.
     
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  21. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mentioned Robinson. CCV is behind Miazga who should have been called over Zimmerman. Not sure what's up between those two as GB waffles back and forth between them. Miazga seems superior to me. Did his team ask for him not to be called up or is he nursing an injury? If not that is the most dumb non call up.
     
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  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I'm not even talking about the senior team! I'm talking about the U23 team where Carter-Vickers and Robinson sat behind MLSers. If the bias didn't happen with amazing regularity across the board (miazga, holmes, etc.), I could just put it aside but to me, it's mind boggling not to see that players are treated very differently depending upon what league they play in.
     
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  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd like to see Busio with a sale and loan back deal like Scally. I think the kid is special, like he could be a Dempsey like player.
     
  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    These are all coach's decisions. We can agree or disagree with the choices, but separate from the discussion of MLS' investment and development of US-eligible players.

    With the way people argue about this, you'd think the USMNT staff was failing to call up the American version of Kylian Mbappe. They're not.

    Am I really supposed to get worked up about Walker Zimmerman versus Matt Miazga? 6 of one; half dozen of the other. Duane Holmes versus Paul Arriola? 6 of one; half dozen of the other. Duane Holmes is an oft-injured, mid career, lower-half Championship player. People talk about him like he's the second coming of Arjen Robben or something. We'll be lucky if he's the second coming of Kenny Saief.
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pretty sure they already do that. But there are players that refuse to sign with a MLS academy, or sign with a non-MLS team so that they can leave for Europe as soon as they are 18. Haji Wright for instance.
     

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