Seems pretty clear to me that this is a matter of phrasing and context. I think Yurch is arguing that Pulisic has been a regular starter, and scored multiple goals against the worlds very best for teams that challenged for their leagues title in Germany with Dortmund, and now he's moved on to one of the big five clubs in England w/a record transfer fee. No American player ever came within 1/50th of what Pulisic has accomplished at his age. Noone's really remotely close, yet. There is little doubt that Pulisic also has a long way to go before he's bagged as many goals abroad as Dempsey, or been a critical piece of a quarterfinalist for the USMNT (Donovan) or scored in 3 consecutive World Cup's (only Dempsey), or been relevant as a full international for more than a decade (Dempsey and Donovan) or caps, or total US goals yada yada. I think it's pretty obvious that the poster (Yurch I think), is arguing that Pulisic's career as of age 20 or 21 or whatever, is a gazillion miles further ahead than anyone else's ever, and it's not close, but his "accomplishment's" line can be used against him if you are looking at career accomplishments, rather than where he's at at 21 or whatever, compared to previous and current US peers. It seems pretty obvious. I don't know about you, but I would've said more or less the same exact thing about Donovan at 20/21, as Yurch is saying about Pulisic now. Donovan made choices I didn't like, but anyone watching Donovan at the Olympics in 2000, and w/San Jose in '01 and the USMNT in the winter of '01-'02, new he would be the most talented USMNT player EVER, easily if he stayed healthy, and he was. Ironically, while all that was going on, Mathis was in a position to give him a run for his money, but alas, mentality really is a huge deal, and it cut that career down before it could ever flower (along w/injuries).
The B1 isn't the EPL: Pulisic is having to improve his game to stick. Dest, McKennie, Adams, Sargent, and Steffen are all doing well in big teams or in big leagues. I wouldn't place Pulisic head and shoulders above this cohort. Steffen is 24, but that's the equivalent of a 20 y/o field player. He is the second youngest B1 keeper with more than 3 starts.
It's really complicated, far more than you suggest, I think Pulisic and Donovan were very similar prospects in terms of upside/talent/ceiling as teens, and I think Pulisic just had the mentality and familial background necessary to push him to fight for every scrap. He went straight to Europe as a teen, didn't come back here, if there were home sickness issues, he never let it get in the way, he was focused on being the best player ever in a US shirt, in a Dortmund shirt, etc, however you want to couch it. Donovan was flat out far more complicated. His father bailed when he was 2, he was raised by a single mom and was super close to his siblings, including a crazy close relationship with his twin sister, already see the complications happening? Pulisic is close with his parents, and his parents played a key role in him moving to Europe, Donovan had to abandon his closest family ties to try soccer in Europe....I'm not going to break into a therapy session here, but I think Donovan just valued family above soccer, or at least as much as it because of his background, and as a result, the normal development curve one might expect with a young prospect w/Donovan was somewhat short circuited by his own temperament, personality, and needs as a human being. He just didn't want to sacrifice his relationship with his family to live in a cold, grey Germany after growing up in Southern California. Regardless, then add in this, whatever we may think, good or bad, Donovan's club career is interesting, he was dynamite pretty much everywhere save Bayern Munich, but he also rarely tested himself against the best until he was 30ish when he spent a couple of winters in England. However, US Plaudits? Donovan took his U17's to the semifinals in '99, the last time they made it that far, Pulisic's crashed out in the group stage 16 years later (a group of death). Donovan's '01 U20 World Cup, honestly, I don't know what happened, zero goals scored, I don't know about assists, they made the knockouts and lost, I don't know how he played as I didn't start watching youth tournaments until 2003. What I do know is that by the winter of '01-'02 he was the most important player in our attack along with Mathis and to a lesser extent McBride. That following summer he'd score on a cross against Portugal, he'd also score a disallowed but legit goal against Poland, he'd score the clincher against Mexico, and come within a whisker of getting a brace against Germany in the quarters w/o actually bagging one goal, and after that he was the engine of our successes ('07 Gold Cup, '09 Confederations Cup, '10 World Cup, see him grabbing the reigns of our WC fate against Slovenia after kickoff, and again in the dying moments against Algeria, and again at the penalty spot against Ghana in the knockouts, was the key in a heroic draw against Italy in the WC four years earlier etc), and this is what makes it difficult. It seems like he didn't miss a single game from the winter of '01-'02, till his temporary retirement from the international game 11 years later. He was literally a part of everything, and not coincidentally, that was the most successful decade in the history of the USMNT. I'm not sure what to think of Donovan vs Pulisic. There is no arguing club performance and success in terms of difficulty, but every time you measured Donovan against the worlds best in major tournaments he kicked rear ends left and right. Indeed the only time he came up short, WC '06, it was in part, at least to me, a problem of deferring to Reyna, a problem he consistently had when he and Reyna were on the field together after WC '02. They never quite seemed to figure that out, much like a heavily watered down England could never get the best out of Lampard or Gerrard, I rarely saw Reyna and Donovan both putting in their very best performances at the same time (maybe vs Mexico and Germany in '02, I can't think of another example, maybe Italy in '06? I can't remember how Reyna played in that game). Regardless, I've always felt Donovan was a flat out world class player, just not one in terms of mentality. He didn't want it, in the same way the greatest in the history of the game did, I poo poo'd Klinsmann's idiotic take about that w/regards to the '02 QF loss (much more about an incompetent ref, than Donovan's mental toughness-what, he has it against Portugal, Poland and Mexico, and later against Italy, Slovenia, and Algeria but not Germany?) but I do think he had a point in general. Donovan walked away from the game to travel, left Germany rather than tough it out, it seems clear Donovan valued his mental health and family more than career goals in soccer, which, honestly, good for him, it's just the one negative for him as a player. Interestingly, it all makes sense from that context. I used to think we needed to give him more time off from '01-'11 when he was playing in seeming every game, regardless of the importance of it, from po-dunk friendly, to hyper-critical qualifier or tourney game, and that his semi-retirement from the international game was at least in part due to exhaustion from never getting time off from it, but honestly, I'm not so sure anymore. If you look at his temperament and personality, it really seems like he was happy and fine when he was close to his family and would play full internationals w/o a second thought, it was when he was far away in Germany/Europe for extended time periods that issues w/mentality seemed to crop up, probably because unlike the international game, playing for a club in Europe would mean that long term separation which it seems like he didn't like it. Kinda makes me wonder what might have been if we'd have had face time in 1999-2000? Kinda silly, but not entirely. Anyway, this is way too long, so I'll stop babbling, honestly though, while Pulisic is peerless in terms of career in club form right now, a guy like Donovan? We need to pay attention to what he did for the USMNT, and how critical he was in doing it, for more than a decade. I expect Pulisic to do some great things, and can only dream of what might have been if he were born in '83 instead of '98, but at the same time, some nuance in all directions is probably needed. Few will ever argue Donovan was world class, but in truth, I think he might've been, but life got in the way, as it can, and so he was just world class for our international team (and not in club football), which is plenty good for me.
Donovan won Young Player of the Tournament for the 2002 World Cup. C'mon. Pulisic is a terrific young player, but even for his age, he is simply not head and shoulders above a player like LD. Howard was 24 during his Premier League Team of the Year season.
Well, these boards are full of people who think guys like Zelalem or Green or Miazga or Carleton or Picault are going to be world beaters. You cannot expect any form of informed opinion from people who barely understand the game.
The USMNT isn’t the Hunger Games. We don’t need to tear down one player to build up another. we should only tear them down when their play/leadership warrants it.....
Nothing magical about it. A season seams like a reasonable amount of time to give a player with a new team/league before making any grand proclamations. Heck, things will be a lot clearer by January. I wasnt comparing them as players, but was giving counter examples to your use if Lingard. I just told you. His mentality and ability to mature physically. Interesting. He has shown everything needed to excel at this level in his past games. He needs to put everything together, improve his decision making, become more consistent, and learn to deal with the physicality of the league.
Roldan has started (besides January camp ridiculousness), 3 of the 4 worst results this year: Jamaica (June) Venezuela Canada Will Trapp has also started three of the four worst results this year: Jamaica (June) Venezuela Mexico (Sept) Neither have started very many other games. McKennie has also started 3 of the four worst games (it is incredible there are 4 horrendous games in one year, with games left to play). McKennie also started the two best performances and has 5 goals.
1. Trapp specifically gets faked out on the Jamaica winner and also gets out of position and off his man for the Italy winner. I lob in the latter because his track record extends back into 2018. 2. Re McKennie, is this the point where we mention how Twellman had a hat trick on Norway? Kljestan had a hat trick on Sweden? Wondo had a hat trick on Belize and another two against Cuba? Also, I remember McKennie poaching as a forward garbage man beyond Sargent, not scoring "midfielder goals." Point one concerns me because we used to systematically punish failure. Players like Robles who had nightmares disappeared. This increases rather than waters down the standard of play. Point two concerns me because it should be core institutional knowledge that blowout matches can mislead (and accordingly we should discount them). I feel like I am watching a program re-learn very basic lessons on how to run a team.
The argument Landon wussed out by coming home is beyond silly. That's when his career skyrockets for club and country. Similarly, objectively by the numbers, Dempsey, Jozy, and Bradley all did the right thing.
The Dempsey v. Pulisic argument neglects their career choices. We keep pretending like it's all equal, or your duty is to pick the biggest money biggest name brand. Fulham was a more midtable side who actually PLAYED Dempsey and so over time he accumulated more time and goals. If Pulisic moved to the current equivalent of FFC my bet is he scores 10 goals a year or more and over a tenure of Dempsey's length these career numbers you are lobbing at a 21 year old even out. He instead repeated his Dortmund glitch at which point he is unlikely to get 10 goals a year as a sub. When Dempsey was Pulisic's age he was the #8 pick -- behind Marshall, Adu, Ngwenya, and Goodson -- fresh out of Furman playing for NER.
In defense of the second tier, part of the problem right now is players like Roldan, Lovitz, Baird, and Trapp routinely make the team. These people I want trialed do not have to be better than the best starter. They need to be better than the 23rd roster guy. It would help if they could win a role where they could start. Think Holmes. Re Pulisic, he plays wide in EPL too. The reason teams can collapse on him is........see the list of people I just gave who start or see minutes. Can you collapse 4 guys on Pulisic for CFC??? No. If we have more, better attackers on the field then you have to honor the options. If the "risk" of collapsing on Pulisic is he passes to Roldan, that's like when teams would try to make Brad Davis pass to Corey Ashe on the Dynamo. The fix to that is not rip on Davis or say he's not a wide player, but to put someone out there better than Corey Ashe that they have to mark at pain of goals being allowed that way just the same. I don't think we currently have 6 Pulisics lying around but we have people in the pool that demand more respect than Roldan.
Of course my Landon and Pulisic argument has gone off the rails. My point was he might benefit as much from Landon-style enduro running work as shooting practice. That in some ways he is more Landon than pure touch guy. Of course that has been twisted around into the abstracted angels on a head of a pin question of who's better. While I am thinking about it, I said Dempsey could work with him some summer on shooting. Notable to me in terms of the NT is why on earth do we have the second rate guys coaching? Berhalter was a career bench rider who lucked into one of his 3 world cups after the starter got hurt. What does Wolff have to teach our forwards? Keller, Lalas, and Landon are all on tv. Dolo got like a one game cameo as an assistant. People are like, why does this team not play like the starters of old used to?? We have what should be a much stronger coaching brain trust than this. Where is it?? I mean, imagine one of Friedel/Howard/Keller coaching keepers, Dolo with the backs, and Dempsey or Landon with the forwards. And a side benefit of that would be people with starter gravitas prodding the team to play like it should.
we have other options, AJ, Wood, Soto. heck, we could move pulisic to striker. but we like to pigeonhole and we like club name/form and we like to winnow down way too fast to short lists of like 3 players, each of who frustrates, and then rotate them looking for the hot hand, instead of maybe get out of the box. one thing p*ssing me off re wood is most teams not content with zardes or jozy might go try and rehabilitate the striker who had been starting ahead of both. and even AJ has scored on better teams than zardes. in parallel with the week by week form obsession we have the memories of gnats. wood also would solve the age issue as he is neither set up to fail nor wet behind the ears. i think the two should transfer back to MLS. then they get back "club form," cannot be ignored, and the people obsessed with that shut up. except the ones who like to condemn anyone who plies their trade here. fwiw the obsession with forward as a problem is absurd. we are fairly loaded. it's the mids and the backs, please.
After the Jamaica game, the fact that Roldan and Trapp even started more games, much less get called back in is nuts. MLS roster rules don't allow for spot competition, but there are enough guys like this that they should have been gone. You are also correct, Trapp probably never should have been back after 2018. Antonee and Djorde were gone after Jamaica and have been gone. But they were working off Trapp and Roldan. When the midfield is soft and ineffective, everyone looks bad. We've seen it since Jones retired. Trapp and Roldan don't just stay, Trapp starts against Mexico in an exercise of playing through an 8 man press! Think about it, Gregg says it would have been, "negligent" to let that opportunity go. But he starts his third choice DM and it isn't "negligent" to not call Bradley. Maybe Bradley and McKennie learn something then. Whatever Trapp and Morales learn is a waste as Trapp doesn't even play versus Canada. McKennie has been on the field for many poor results. But he was not a deep lying midfielder in any of them. He was a 10 (coincidently?) for Venezuela, Mexico #2, and Canada. The games where he started further back, have been some of the USMNT best (a short list that includes a loss possibly). When the team has started either Trapp or Roldan at DM (omg or a double pivot against Jamaica in June), it has looked its worse. But Trapp has 1300' as a DM in the past two years (he had 37' total previously), and Roldan has 900' this year (he previously had one game as a CM where the USMNT gave up two goals to Martinique). This is truly beating a dead horse, but this horse is a zombie for Gregg.
Donovan came back to MLS and then was poor at the 2006 WC. Hardly what you are describing. He, at least, knows it himself and works a loan to the EPL before the 2010 WC. The 2010 WC was arguably his best. Donovan, by his own actions (leaving MLS for the EPL at a critical time), tells you as much. He is rich and didn't have to stress much to get the money. But, the Donovan that played at Everton for that small stretch, was the best Donovan. The idea that playing with and against better competition, makes you better, is hardly a novel concept. It is fascinating that so many around here just can't accept it.
Imo, Ruud Gullit changed LD's career. Gullit was not a good manager. But, under Gullit, Donovan became a more confident, assertive, dominant …. better player.
You have the cause and effect wrong. It's what you do between games that matters. "Playing against," with nothing else, is usually just an exercise in frustration or teaching you your limits. Granted, there is some value to simplifying your game after learning you don't have as much time or space as you hoped. But a guy has to be taught or concoct dribble moves, has to be taught how to hit a good instep drive, and can even use some help learning how to find pass options, or how to play team defense. I won 2 state club championships, and those happened from drilled defense, working on technique, and.....shock and dismay.....us raiding the competition for good players. That last little bit -- talent scouting -- seems to be less fashionable these days. Same fallacy as the people who think playing good teams makes you a better team. You saw what happened to Sarachan's bunch. Do they look any better for it?? All it did was create a list of exposed players. It didn't help us beat Mexico or Canada much less rise to the elite level. When the ageing team around you wins one point I don't know if I am going to reach some definitive assessment of individuals on that basis. I remember Reyna and Lewis having nightmares. Landon doesn't stand out. I can already see miles ahead where this lameness is going. Landon was dominant at 2010 WC. While at LAG. But there you will claim that tournament was the product of the foreign loans, when in reality they were cherrypicking a guy already scoring 20 for LAG, MVP, Golden Boot of the league. Oh but if he plays 20 games over 2 years and scores 2 goals that actually explains what happened. You would also be neglecting that shortly after the 3rd year of loan-season-loan-season-season-loan-season he all but quit and went walkabout aged 30. He was then cut from the team. I consider that premature and at odds with his fitness levels. I would hardly hold that running of him into the ground a template for the others. Again, you have it backwards. The foreign club world likes to swoop in for kids, who are in for a lottery with their own kids. It then likes to grab relatively finished veteran products with established track records. I would give them more credit for creating the former, who they actually develop in youth ranks -- but then the history is rife with Weah McBride Donovan on and on being spat back out and having to reboot at the next place. And then big club Europe loves them again when they are established.
Mine is actually a middle position. I think there is a career push pull. Ambition is fine. But sitting does you no good, playing does. Those two are at odds. The player's job is to balance. At times to take risks, but at times to consolidate or ensure playing time. I've suggested players go abroad very early but with a quick hand to pull the drain plug and get out and get PT if necessary. I've suggested later go abroad when established. I've suggested calibrate your choices where you actually play. I've suggested if you want to take a big shot do it early in a cycle where it can be fixed for qualifying. It's a balancing act. One thing I have noticed is the snobs can't seem to make up their mind whether only big clubs count or whether it suffices to be in a good league. There is a gap between big club players and big league ones. I think there is modest evidence getting a big club contract is a boon, generally revolving around GKs. I think the career path charted by Dempsey is actually the most generally effective but if you think Champs League is everything it is All Wrong -- because it was Fulham, because he started and ended here -- even though it's probably the most consistently productive career we've had. So do we care what numbers show, how we have produced our best players? Or do we care what snobs wish to be true? How many players do we have who were foreign academicians who are actually at the same team that brought them up? How many non GKs do we have at big clubs who stay put and playing any length of time? It's a nice theory you have. It doesn't work that well in practice. Just like the System it's out ahead of the talent to execute the strategy. What works right now is balance. The worst part of the argument is we are probably at a high water mark right now in terms of people nominally on the books at Bayern Chelsea Spurs Man City etc. And results reality is what it is now. But of course there is no connection between the two. But I thought "playing against the best" was gonna fix it all?????????????
Yesterday Aron Johannsson won his first 1 vs. 1 speed duel in years, when he beat Eric Larsson to win the free kick that lead to Hammarby's second goal. For the first time in ages I saw him apply the Turbo Speed setting, and it was a sight to see. He had come in fresh 15 minutes before though, but considering the guy has been barely running for over two years, that's a triumph.
I wouldnt You are talking at club level right? Cause at US level Donovan was a star at 20. He had much more going for him than Pulisic, namely the surrounding players. Right now, the USA player pool is a total train wreck. Pulisic isnt able to elevate other players right now, so we'll have to see if he improves. But, its concerning, Pulisic isnt more of a playmaker