USA vs. Canada, 10/15/2019 [R] - Post-Mortem

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I was thinking that the other day. I reflexively leave him off lists "because age." Because I think Guzan Jozy Bradley Omar et al should all be pastured save an emergency. But if Old Man Soccer is OK why are we preemptively leaving off Opara, who can defend well presently. Because he might be losing a little? Because he would soon get old? That's not applied to the others. He is the one of the bunch playing at a high level.

    So much of what we do is inconsistent or internally contradictory. Are we committing to offense? Or defense? Are we trying to be an offensive team with defensive players? Are we going veteran? Or young?
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #627 juvechelsea, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
    The talent graph going up or down should only matter relative to Mexico. CR is mostly domestic, then the excellent Navas, and then they play abroad all over Europe no place better than we do. Honduras is in part the Hondurynamo aka Houston, then the Honduran league, a guy in Spain who the Dynamo had and cut, a forward in Italy, and a couple in Portugal. Canada's forwards travel well but otherwise it's mostly MLS with a guy even from CPL. Jamaica has one guy in Belgium, one guy in B.1, some MLS, a lot of USL. ES has a guy on the Dynamo, a couple guys in Thailand, mostly domestic.

    One version of this would be the snobs overrate going abroad, or conflate being there with being good. That club affiliation is less important than the quality of the players and what the NT looks like.

    Another version would be if you took the snob argument seriously we should on paper have the second best talent in the region.

    I think one reason we now hear the snobs talking down the talent is the cognitive dissonance i just detailed above. If they believe what they routinely profess (when we're talking selection debates) they would have to savage Berhalter because their own notions dictate seeing this as the second best team in the region on paper. But Berhalter is their missionary priest and to abandon him would be to abandon their religion. It would be to say that getting prettier soccer doesn't fix everything for everyone. It's easier to then stay, if not pro Berhalter, at least mimicking of his "player blame" PR. And to me saying I have a system but it's not going yet is in part a player critique. I am a genius who would win the world cup and you dolts just can't make happen what i design in my head. The Fed has to buy this in some formulation to act like more time has any value.

    Personally I think much of the "talent" argument, as currently framed, is intellectual trash. When you start talking "talent" you have to consider the pool. There is a fair amount better sitting in the pool waiting. U20s, U23s, dual nationals, Euros, forgotten men. But they are not selected. I would agree GB doesn't field very much "talent." But if I can rattle off a dozen or so he doesn't field that sounds more like "selection." And yes this might even not be a cresting period of world class talent, yet (though i say check back in 5 years), but it should suffice for second as opposed to getting creamed by #7. At which point I don't want to hear "talent" because that's starting to drift towards impractical snob territory. For practical purposes for what we want, it merely suffices to have created top 3 talent.

    on paper we have at least that. the rest is on the coach.

    i also think the "talent" arguments serve to hide the incremental benefits of a good coach. if we are still talking talent that is basically the "give him better resources" argument people used to avoid being pinned to Crew table position. but what i see so far is someone who at minimum doesn't leverage added resources, and arguably wastes them. given a NT he sets about recreating columbus. meanwhile Jamaica and Canada beat us with far less. hmmm, maybe coaching matters. isn't the whole idea to have the team playing more than the strict sum of its parts??

    even if we did focus on talent, we have enough for our goals. it's being frittered away. and it sounds like a vaguely snobby thing to be talking about who you don't have or how you don't play. this is not the world where most soccer teams dwell, ie, reality, where one takes calm stock of what is on hand, and sets about to maximize it, no matter whether gold mine or crap pile. northern ireland manages to be competitive. get over yourselves.

    i don't want to hear about talent because it's a waste of time. we don't try new people much. we don't field players suited to tactics. and our coach hasn't drilled our team into something more than just the bodies on the field. if anything they looked befuddled and less than before his claws sunk in.
     
  3. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't get the post, sorry, I don't watch MLS with any regularity. I haven't seen the guy play more than once or twice.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    do i have to explain how silly "too athletic" is when our backs get run by??
     
  5. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have just posted the 2nd biggest fallacy about team construction and effectiveness.

    A concrete example; Replace Roldan with Bedoya v Canada. Nobody would argue that Bedoya is currently a player for player major upgrade to Roldan but that simple change creates a much more effective CM trio for the US.

    Suddenly the US is winning more individual duels on that side of the pitch and likely more 50/50 balls and 2nd balls. MB90 becomes more effective because he can sit a little deeper with more protection, time, and space. Weston now has a bit more freedom to roam and more important feed off, and channel back the intensity and energy that Bedoya brings to the fight. Acosta for Roldan coupled with Morales for Bradley creates a different and like even more effective synergy against Canada, similar to the squad we saw v Portugal under Sarachan.

    Coaching, especially at the international level, is about creating the right set of synergies on the pitch to beat the current opponent. Berhalter and his supporters think that it is about detailing a set of "read-progressions", instructing and drilling the team on the set, and when they have learned the set, voila we have a winning team.

    Canada was setup to go out and win an important soccer match, we were setup to run read-progressions that we had been drilling for 9 months. Canada's coach telegraphed how to beat us; Disrupt those pretty but very mechanical read-progressions. We are then left with players and their qualities including mentality.
     
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  6. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    If we don't have the players, that's not a USSF apology, at all. That's the harshest possible condemnation on the whole program, from the way they promote kids to the way they teach the coaches.

    Compared to that, those who think just changing players is going to change things are the real USSF apologists, since they think we could do a quick fix if only they came into their senses and hired a proper coach.
     
  7. pirozhok

    pirozhok Member+

    United States
    Jul 20, 2007
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Garber got upset rightfully, Klinsie defamed his business, as a business exec Garber had to react and rebuff defamations.
     
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  8. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    One win does not a good team make.

    It is a start...but only a start.

    You should be encouraged though.
     
  9. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Canada had the better players on the field on Tuesday. If you asked any neutral to point out the $73m guy on that field, he'd have picked Davies.
     
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  10. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    There.It.Is.Folks.

    All you need to know spelled out in black and white.
     
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  11. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #636 TrueCrew, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
    I did not see the match live, so I waited to comment. I will say this:

    1) I have no doubt the Fed is permeated with vile scum and grifters. A toxic environment to be sure.

    2) This is not new. It has been that way for a while. Cersei or Joffrey or Chuck Blazer.

    3) We suck right now.

    4) This is not new.

    We have not won a competitive road match since 2016 at SAINT VINCENT & THE GRENADINES.

    Jurgen lost to Panama & Jamaica in the Gold Cup (at home). Bruce lost at T&T, to their B team, with the WC on the line and did not win an away Hex match, nor did Jurgen. Sarachan won 3 games out of twelve.

    We have not won the A Gold Cup since 2007. Though LD won the B one in 2015 (with JK) and Arena won the B with Clint in 2017.

    We finished 5th in the Hex, losing to the 6th place team's B team when a draw got us through.

    Post JK: Arena (10-6-2: 55.56%/66.7%), Sarachan (3-4-5 25%/36.1%); 3G 9-2-5 56.25%/56.9%).

    We have not been worth a damn since LD, Duece, Jones, and Howard either retired or declined.

    5) I am not saying 3G is a great coach. Or even a good one at the international level at this point. That would be absurd.

    But what I am saying is that we have kind of sucked for a while now. Under 4 different head coaches.

    We have sucked under two establishment type coaches (Arena & Sarachan). We have sucked under two "we need to change how we play" coaches (latter day Klinnsman & early days Berhalter).

    6) This is the worst US Team I have seen since the '90 team, and maybe even before that. I said that after T&T, and we have not gotten any better.

    Howard. Dempsey. Donovan. Beasley. Jermaine Jones. Those guys are gone. We may never see their like again.

    Ditto McBride, Cherundolo, Friedel, Keller, Reyna, Boca, Ramos, and Pope. Bradley is a shell.

    Heck, I long to see Hejduk, Sanneh, Meola, JOB, Mastroeni, Balboa, Dooley, Wynalda, Lalas, Jay DeMerit, Harkes, Eddie Lewis, Berhalter, Gooch, FJ, Caliguiri, Bruce Murray, and Kyle Beckerman.

    This bunch may have me longing for Burns, Agoos, Bornstein, and Timmy Chandler before long.

    7) Firing Berhalter now would be stupid.

    I saw some comments from Arena that I thought were spot on. He said Berhalter is managing like this is a club team and it isn't. And he and the staff are learning to identify the profile of players who can contribute intetnationally.

    Let's see if those lessons can be learned. 3G was pretty good at learning from mistakes in Columbus. Though at times frustratingly stubborn about the style of play (turnovers from the back leading to goals happened a lot).

    8) We do not have a lot of good options, player wise.

    The attack is shite & the defense not much better.

    I do not think Ream, Lovitz, or Yedlin are good enough in the back. Opara deserves a shot. Guys who can defend well is more of a priority than speedy guys or guys who are mistake prone passers. Give RB to Cannon. I would try Arriola at LB. He adds nada to the attack but could be a decent FB.

    Ditto Roldan, Bradley, and our entire CM corps outside McKennie. And he was poor, too.

    We do not have one good CM/CF much less two or three. I would put McKennie at the 8 (#10 was worth a look), with Trapp/Yueill at the 6. Pulisic & Morris start somewhere.

    9) Let this group & 3G see if they can rescue this (win the group). If not, especially if we lose at home, then make a change.

    10) Regardless, I think fans should start to manage expectations. We are not beating Mexico anytime soon. And qualifying for WC 2022 is a success, in any fashion.

    11) I thought no one cared about Nations League. Now some are jumping ship because we lost a game in it?

    Honestly, fans who are jumping ship now can stay off. They seem to reflect the lack of fight in the team. I am old enough to remember getting hammered in the late 70's/80's. Being thrilled when the '90 team qualified. Remember when there was no domestic league. And hosting a WC was not even a thought.

    Buck up people. It is going to be a bumpy ride. We have a lot of work to do. On and off the pitch.
     
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  12. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    We should hire Jill. At least she can beat Herdman, with Herdman having what he claims is the greatest player of all time.
     
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  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Garber was right for the wrong reasons. Klinsmann kept calling under-performing guys from 2.BuLi or Liechtenstein or other Central Euro places, over players in MLS (or the Championship) due to his own biases.

    It was a good thing for him to give more chances to good MLSers at that point. And it was wrong of him dismissing the local league in public. The current coach of the NT should never do that.

    When you're in a sinking boat, you try to plug the holes, not start cursing the boat.
     
  14. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Why shouldn't he do that? Sometimes the league and NT have different agendas. MLS is a third rate league with a bizarre set up and poor coaching. Someone has to call the league on their bullshit and our media types sure weren't doing that.
     
  15. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I forgot Morales.

    Here is my XI, assuming full health save for Adams.

    ------------------Steffen----------------
    Cannon---Opara---Brooks---Arriola
    --------Morales----McKennie------
    Morris---------?????---------Pulisic
    -------------Altidore---------

    Maybe 2 up top. Love to move Puli up but then we do not haemve a wing. Weah or Sargent up top with Jozy?
     
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  16. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    It was different when we were looking for Arena's replacement. The fed hadn't been revealed for the sh*tshow it is. We could have had a muuuuuuuch better manager. And, still, the bar for that is very low.
     
  17. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I'm not seeing the Canadian post you're referring to, but my response is: ok, now beat Mexico. You beat us, and we're are a dumpster fire. Now beat mex, then you can crow. So far, you've done *nothing.*
     
  18. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Not the coach. The federation may be corrupt, the league may be crap, the coaching may be subpar, but there are dozens of young men there trying their best, aspiring to some good club to come and take them and give them a chance in a better place.

    When you have someone inside the program take a shot and dismissing the accomplishments of such young players by stating publicly that the league is "not competitive," how is that going to help anyone?

    All it does is sink their chances of moving to a better place. Klinsmann was a fool.
     
  19. nbarbour

    nbarbour Member+

    Jun 19, 2006
    Washington DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why should we suffer through Berhalter learning "lessons" that were clearly obvious to 95% of Big Soccer a year ago?!?! This train wreck has been telegraphed from almost the very beginning. He's proven to be a crap manager, who doesn't get the most out of his players. Regardless of our talent level relative to the past or the fact that he continues to call in inferior players versus better options, the players he does call in are almost to a man underperforming versus their club forms. But yeah, let's continue to give this idiot more time, while the USMNT continues to lose fans due to apathy and anger, simply on the hope that maybe one day he'll stumble upon the right strategy. No thanks.
     
  20. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I've posted it several times. And, trascripted it in to the post. I'm not good at Search on this board. But, if you search for a post that contains both Garber and Wahl, you should find it.
     
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I checked your 22 posts in this thread. No link. No problem, though.
     
  22. nbarbour

    nbarbour Member+

    Jun 19, 2006
    Washington DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shoutout to @IndividualEleven for calling this from the very beginning. Many were very skeptical of the "system" from the start, but we're all fans, so optimism typically wins the day early on.

    But this has unravelled even more precipitously than even my worst fears, mainly because he has combined his garbage system that isn't fit for international play (except maybe if you have a Top 10 player pool) with mind-numbingly indefensible player selection.
     
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  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I see the logic in the ambition. From the top down, however, and since the failure at Couva, the execution has been horrible.
     
  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Egg is rigid. That can fly in MLS, but as an international coach it's a big handicap.

    On top of that, when you're rigid and unable to adapt to the rival, and at the same time you want players to play a certain idealized style for which they are ill fit, you have the makings of a disaster.

    This is not getting better any time soon. Yes, we are likely to win the next two games, but it doesn't mean anything. We should beat Canada at home even with a poor coach.
     
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  25. Runhard

    Runhard Member+

    Barcelona
    United States
    Jul 5, 2018
    You are probably spot on with this roster being our best. The problem with that is it is a really boring, uninspiring, not very good group for a country of 300Million. I dont' think its a coach or fed issue but simply that the US has a ton of average players and no really good ones, anywhere.

    The guy on ESPN FC was right, the US is just not very good, period. We have never been very good or more than a blip and typically an easy win for a good National Team to play against. We should start by moving as many players as we possibly can to Europe and the big 5 leagues and telling kids to STOP going to the MLS at all costs. I know this will piss off the MLS crowd but so what. If we ever want to compete we don't need guys playing for FCD (Reggie Cannon )and Sporting KC (The graham Zusi's of the world). We need guys playing for Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man City etc. I
     

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