USA vs. Canada, 10/15/2019 [R] - Post-Mortem

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Repping this post wasn't enough. It's just not nearly as hard as Egg makes it. That team beats the team we saw on Tuesday. I'm sure there's a player or two most informed posters would swap out based on personal preference but if that group was called in exactly as you suggested (minus Jona of course), I would be elated.

    That's a hard-nosed team that can defend like their life depends on it with some offensive firepower that would be difficult to deny for 90 minutes. I miss seeing USMNT's with those qualities. AND, I think they'd be plenty capable of playing some pretty soccer when the time called for it as well.
     
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  2. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    US and Canada won the same number of duels. Doyle pointed out Canada was dominant until they scored the first goal. Well, this would be expected if Canada outnumbered the US in central midfield, which they did for most of the game.

    What's really missing? 3G seems to want to generate creativity via the deep mid. That's clearly not working.

    Even with his brother's and other crony backing, a home loss to Canada would likely leave his position untenable.

    Surely he'll/they'll retool and rethink the tactical approach.
     
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  3. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. I have literally lost all faith in GB
    2. If they appointed Ramos as the coach then it wouldn't really be starting over as he has been with the youth team since 2013. As such, he has had a hand in developing a large number of our players from Yedlin on the older side to Ledezma on the younger.
     
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Part of 50/50 balls should be the amount of range covered as well. Just like in baseball where they now look at where players are standing relative to where/how hard balls are hit.
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    which sets up the stunning potential contingency of literally repeating your mistake right down to the timing of last cycle

    i see four decision points, now, next set if we lose to canada, NL playoffs, and after that we're already qualifying

    you could argue, though their specific tactics differ, that we in a way went back to BA/MLS continuity after a year break -- though I'd say with a much worse choice -- and if we let this drag into WCQ again we have literally learned nothing between cycles

    i was concerned before canada but chose to phrase it in certain ways not to jinx us, and because i cannot wish for us to lose. paraphrasing, "we are still arrogant," "i expect them to give us a game." that concern hasn't lessened. i can't believe we haven't fired him because this isn't even a solidly hex team. This is a marginal team trying to get results to even make the hex. i thought it might take Honduras or CR to show whether we are ready. if it only took canada......???

    objectively, right now, we would struggle to tie away qualifiers, and would face tough odds in the home Mexico game. you then top out at 12-15 points like last time. the qualifying ball hasn't rolled one foot. this should be regional #2 at minimum, on talent. i agree with those who say the region is catching up and MLS helps them out almost more than us. but man for man we should be better than this. but at this level you need the coaching to get the right names and tactics on the field. and yeah, part of it is the Fed is right behind all this.
     
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  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #506 juvechelsea, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    i mean, if there was one objective lesson to learn from last time, it was not "change how we play," it was not "hire a GM," etc.......it would have been, pull the trigger faster. they wanted klinsi out after guate. player revolt, fed man tasked with exploring alternatives. he got sick and it was shelved. JK barely survives the semis. JK gets 0 points in 2 games. BA got 12 points from 8 games but we needed 13.

    the one non political lesson of last time is don't fart around like this.

    if anything the GM idea gets it backwards. you were better off with Fed execs getting itchy trigger fingers. the history on that here lacks negative lessons. it might be different in mexico, but here people have usually gotten fired right when they deserved it. this is becoming the ship goes down with the captain. if that's the idea then they need to spend more money up front where the degree of commitment makes more sense.

    to me if the GM hires the coach and that choice is a big part of his job, unless instructed to (and supported in) "terminate with extreme prejudice," his natural tendency will be to feel affirmed in his choice, and to avoid the reflection upon himself that is admitting the mistake by giving the pink slip. the likely scenario, to me, would seem to be that GM and HC will be fired together, at a point when it is too late.
     
  7. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Berhalter himself. He said the number one issue was not winning 50/50s. The immediate first thought I had was "why didn't you play Yueill over Bradley and select Homes over Roldan?"
     
  8. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #508 Lloyd Heilbrunn, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    Ream had a couple of good games, against weak and extremely weak opposition, and it's like people forgot he was Tim Ream...
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    WAY over rated!!!

    I am not a fan of Ream but thought he was much better. Long looks lost out there. On the first goal, Ream was in good position on the near post runner while Long was marking space allowing Davies to get behind him. On the second goal, Ream stepped in front of his man to win header from long ball (not a good clearance) while Long was hanging out and didnt read that he needed to shift over given that Ream had stepped.

     
  10. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Actually, Honduras, Costa Rica and El Salvador are not looking good at all. Jamaica is the tough one now. Also, Canada if they jump over El Salvador.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    #511 bsky22, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    Why is it that those who defend Berhalter and MLS players twist people's arguments. I am interested in picking the players that give us the best chance to win and improve as a team. Berhalter isnt doing that. He is relying on MLS players that arent good enough and not giving foreign based players a shot.

    I gave you who my top 23 were and there are only a handful of MLS players in it. Who did I leave out that you think belongs?
     
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  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd say everything about Holmes is better. I cant think of game where Roldan looked the part. Where Holmes looked dominant in a game where pretty much every other player struggled.
     
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    #513 Suyuntuy, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    The last good tournament we had was the Copa Centenario. The last big win we had was against Ecuador in Copa, followed by the 6-0 away to St. Vincent and the 4-0 to Trinidad at home. Summer/spring of 2016.

    Common factors in those teams:

    1. Howard was still solid. Since then, he's dropped considerably.

    2. Cameron and Johnson were in defense. Still playing at a good level. Since then, Cameron has suffered several injuries and Johnson is a shadow of himself.

    3. Jones and Dempsey retired. After Donovan left, those two were the guys who kept it going for a bit. Even if already lacking in offense, with those two we had both the cover and the chances created.

    4. Bradley went from adequate to near useless.

    5. The Fall of Bobby Wood.

    6. Beckerman got old too, and for a guy with not enough lateral movement already, that was Taps.

    7. Pulisic did not live up to the hype. Too much hype, too. You don't put up a huge tifo of a kid in his second start and against the hardest rival when he has proved nothing yet at the NT level. All that does is put undue pressure on him.

    Anyway, no one since has been good enough to cover for those deficiencies. Also, the entire "good start" to the second cycle was a bit of a mirage: we beat a very weak Paraguay, an Ecuador that was on the way down (and is now arguably as bad as Bolivia), a Costa Rica that was experimenting in Copa (and already on the descent), St. Vincent away, and the old Trinidad that went on to lose all their games, at home (the younger Trinidad we faced in Couva may have been a B team, but it was better than their A team, as they had shown already against Mexico; but that fool Bruce didn't watch...).

    Until September 2016, we had the remnants of a decent Starting XI (not the bench, once we had to use guys from our bench we were screwed, we saw that against Argentina). Klinsmann and Arena tried some young guys but didn't seem to be impressed enough in training, so they were left out for the real games.

    Sarachan was the shining spot, but it was just friendlies. It's very different to play friendlies, so it may be a mirage too. But we tied Portugal in Portugal and France in France under Dave. And these were the starting lineups:

    At Leiria, Portugal:

    -------------------Horvath-----------------
    Yedlin----Miazga---Brooks---Lichaj
    ---------------------Dwill--------------------
    Adams--Acosta---Weston--Agudelo
    ------------------Sapong--------------------

    https://www.skysports.com/football/portugal-vs-usa/teams/385532

    https://www.flashscore.com/match/SAQaC4eb/#lineups

    That's no mistake: Adams and Agudelo played wide, Weston was our CAM with Acosta in the 8 role. What would we say now if we saw this lineup?

    Yet it worked: Adams was the only man who could keep the speedster Bruma under control. And Yedlin was put against the slowest of the Portuguese, Vito Antunes.

    For the France game we saw:

    --------------------Steffen----------------------
    Shaq---CCV----Miazga---Parker---ARob
    --------Adams----Trapp----Weston--------
    ------------Wood---------Green---------------

    https://www.skysports.com/football/france-vs-usa/teams/386546

    https://www.flashscore.com/match/tONSOAQ7/#lineups

    With Green slightly behind Wood to get the balls. It kept the French CBs guessing whether he was going to pass or was going to try the shot himself. France came out for that game without wingers, so risking it with two fullbacks not known to be solid defensively was a risk that eventually paid: the hole between Kante and the line with Matuidi and Pogba was exploited by Shaq and ARob feeding Adams and Wes.

    In short, Sarachan didn't have a system. He was adapting to the rival. I have the strong suspicion that he'd have been much superior to the mess we're seeing now. And that right after the Old Guard had left, and he was building teams with young, unproved, even not-that-good players.

    Sarachan was succeeding where both Klinsmann and Arena before him, and Egg after, failed: integrating young players to the squad.
     
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  14. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    People ragged on Sunil, often with some justification, but think about it.

    He may have been the last non-MLS guy left in the room.

    That was one reason Garber went after Klinsi in such an open and hostile way for Klinsi doing nothing more than uttering a truism in public.

    That attack was really a shot at his sponsor, Sunil.

    You see, if they could get rid of Klinsi, it would cripple Sunil and then, with him out of the way, they could buy off and roll over anyone else who stood in their way.

    It worked.

    And now the USMNT is nothing more than a "showcase" for MLS/SUM.

    As a result......We are screwled as long as that remains the situation. And as long as the current structure is in place, I have a hard time seeing how anything can change it.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    who are your top 23?
     
  16. striker

    striker Member+

    Aug 4, 1999
    Perhaps because we had McBride and Dempsey then.
     
  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Klinsmann was the first US figure to bring attention to the importance of 1v1s which has long been an extremely important stat in the BuLi. Tyler Adams became an instant success in the BuLi primarily because folks were astonished by not only his duel winning % but just the sheer number of duels that he had per match.

    Many will remember JK dropping Mix from the CC 2013 match day roster and explaining that you can't go through a match avoiding duels. Mix became a much more active 2-way player after that incident.
     
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  18. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    50/50's and duels are not synonymous. Many duels are not 50/50s. The primary duel is a take-on, where a player attempts to dribble by a defender, that is not a 50/50. Most 50/50s are attempted recoveries or contested headers.
     
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  19. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    #519 grandinquisitor28, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    I don't. I think if you look at the players Berhalter is calling in, it's perfectly reasonable to say that his crummy 23 are looking god awful playing his god awful system.

    I don't for a second believe that that means our pool is garbage. I think he's choosing the wrong 23, the wrong 11, and the wrong tactics (and subs: consider, Daniel Lovitz has been his super sub, repeatedly), and that's why we suck. Period.
     
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  20. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The team won a lot under him.

    But not because of him.
     
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  21. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Preach. Plz, nobody let the "our players just aren't that good, lost generation, wahhhhh" group gain a foothold.

    Where does it end? Our players weren't good enough to beat Mexico, now they aren't good enough to beat Canada, even though any neutral metric would tell you our players are far better.

    The race to the bottom from USSF/Egg supporters has gotten embarrassing, and we're only 1 year in!!
     
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  22. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    boycott MLS till USSF fixes itself and dumps this MLS primacy garbage.
     
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  23. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Arsenal, Leeds....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. The players are not stupid.
    2. They have much better coaching with their club teams.
    3. They know GGG is trying to ram a system down their throats that there is a weak justification for.
    4. Defensively we are not well organized.
    5. Midfield roles are not crystal clear.
    6. Instead of us pressuring the opponent in their defensive third we are being pressured in our own.

    GGG is not clue less (he is not that stupid) but he is a quiet narcissist who has the confidence of his brother (a conflict of interest) and who cannot see his way to dumping his wrong convictions. Somebody external has to fix this because Jay will not and Greg has the deer in the headlights look and cannot resign (he has to be fired). Others would see the issue clearly and would resign.

    The players know - pick a strong 11 - get the defense organized - don’t let us get picked apart playing out of the back - pressure the opponent in their half - hit them on the counter - don’t try to complicate the game with some glorious system. Put the best players where they play for their club teams. Be tough and bust their ass collectively 95 mins. The players know.
     
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  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It depends on your standards.

    Do we have a pool good enough to qualify? Yes. Do doubt in my mind.

    Do we have a pool good enough to survive a typical World Cup group? No, no way.

    So if your standard of "good" is qualifying out of C-CAF, yes, our pool is not a bad one.

    If your standard of "good" is aspiring to make a QF run in a World Cup, then our pool sucks the big fat one.
     
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  25. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Look at CR and Hondo's results in the past year. Hondo beat Chile in September and is on a 5 match win streak (the others were against Ccaf competition) Hondo tied Paraguay in June.

    CR beat Chile and Peru on the road last November.

    If Canada edges the Sallies, we could fail to get a point on the road in the Hex. We'll lose to Mex.
     

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