USA vs. Canada, 10/15/2019 [R] - Post-Mortem

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    We can agree to disagree. I have no fear of the Mexican side - I don't think they're any better than they've traditionally been, even with their now-aging golden generation.

    We've beaten better skilled Mexican teams for decades - why couldn't we do that now?

    I'll answer it - because we have a poor coach/system/federation that makes our players look decidedly average.
     
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  2. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone with more time on their hands needs to look back over the last few years and tell me the results of the US corners. I don't remember an awful lot of goals, quality chances or even shots on target from them. It was Bradley for a while and now Pulisic, and neither seem to create much danger with them. We seemed to create more a few years back.
     
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  3. keller4president

    Jan 5, 2006
    Hilarious post, made me laugh out loud (with you, not against you). My post is half-satire, half-reality - I'm desperately looking for a solution anywhere outside our current player pool. Cause our current players aren't getting done, and a coaching switch won't change that. To me, this is more on the players than the coach. He's working with what he has, which isn't much.
     
  4. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    I don't have the time, but ... it may be as simple as the team having found a creative solution to the coach's directive that they score a higher percentage of goals from the run of play.
     
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  5. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That indicates me that you haven't watched David in Europa or Belgium, Cavallini in MX nor Davies at Bayern.

    Davies can make fools of Bundesliga defenders and clearly EPL guys like Yedlin.

    David
    dominates in Belgium (2nd goal scorer in the league) and Europa (2 goals)...he's only 19 and only his 2nd year as a pro...

    Cavallini
    is a regular scorer in Liga MX (lead scorer on his team) on a mediocre Puebla team.

    Those 3 are a nightmare do defense against and they face better defenders more often. Now if you mean Larin...I would agree to that but as of late (4G, 4A in 10 games) in Belgium

    You mean Tyler Adams. Yes that's an excellent mid corps when you add him, I've seen their games in Bundesliga and this year in Chelsea although that's an adjustment that Pulisic needs to make. EPL is a very different league.

    I put the emphasis on the word "match" I didn't say "exceed".

    Scott Arfield plays for Rangers but he's EPL caliber and was the regular starter at Burnley. He turned down EPL offers to go home and play European competition.

    He was the transformational change for our midfield, he's the guy who makes everyone around him better. It was obvious during the game, he was key to our midfield outplaying the US. That's not happening without him

    We also have better talent at midfield. A healthy Stephen Eustaquio (Cruz Azul) pushes Kaye to Osorio's spot and ejecting him from the starting XI. He was one of the best midfielder in Liga NOS but chose Mexico over staying in Europe.

    Samuel Piette
    should be in Europe but after that performance, I'm buying in that we may no longer need Atiba Hutchinson. Still, Hutchinson ability to dispossess and his IQ are unreal but this should be his last year.

    Fraser played due to injuries, you won't find him on any starting XI under normal circumstances.

    That I agree with. The US backline is both better and deeper than ours.

    Borjan more than matches Steffen in goals as we see in Champions League year after year.

    Still maintaining XI can match, which they did (matching doesn't necessarily mean surpassing) but your depth is better.

    Sure, Berhalter was outcoached but you can't contradict yourself either. You're hyping your starting XI as "out of reach" for Canada. If that was true, the players' talent should have been enough to get a result with guys like McKennie, Sargent and Pulisic. Curacao had an excellent game plan but the US XI was still too talented in comparison to fall so this doesn't add up. Either Canada XI is closer in talent or some of the US players are overrated. Can't have it both ways.

    It wasn't just the coaching, let's be real...Yedlin didn't look like an EPL defender at all. Context matters such as for which team and who they are playing with, not just the league. Are they a central piece of that team, a depth player, a passenger or bencher? Just stating the league and claiming superiority proves nothing.


    ------------------Cavallini (Puebla)
    Davies (Bayern)------------------David (Gent)

    ------Arfield (Rangers)----Eustaquio (Cruz Azul)
    ----------------------Piette (Montreal)

    Adekugbe (Valerenga)---Cornelius (Vancouver)---Vitoria (Moreirense)---Laryea (TFC)

    -----------------------Borjan (Red Star)

    Bench:
    Hoillet (Cardiff)
    Atiba Hutchinson (Besiktas)
    Larin (Zulte <---Besiktas)
    Millar (Kilmarnock <---Liverpool)
    Kaye (LAFC)
    Osorio (TFC)
    Fraser (TFC)
    Miller (Orlando City)
    Brault-Guillard (Montreal <---Olympique Lyonnais)
    Henry (Vancouver)
    Cordova (Huachipato)
    Crepeau (Vancouver)
     
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    David's best goal in Nation league
     
  7. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Easy test.

    Is he better at 50/50's - Yes
    Can he accomplish the same approximate role as Roldan at a similar level - Yes

    I think Roldan was picked because he has a few more goals in his stats. I thought this was not great before the game but I am only now waking up to our issues with 50/50s.
     
  8. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fvck!
     
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  9. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Ya, I think the pool is as good as it's ever been.

    We can field a back line of all Championship level defenders + a PL starter. (I don't count Brooks, as he's rarely available).

    Adams, one of the better dmids in the BL.
    Wes, one of the better 8's in the BL.
    Morales, a mid that gets regular minutes in the BL
    Puli, a BL quality winger
    Sargeant, a forward getting time in the BL
    Morris, a decent wing player.

    And Steffen, a keeper who already has a couple of BL best 11's this season.

    I don't think we've ever been able to put 11 guys on the field like that. Part of the problem is that Adams & Morales haven't been available. But, the clear, obvious, huge problem is the manager. I don't think there is anyone out there who thinks "oh, when Adams gets healthy, Jay's Brother is going to turn us into a juggernaut."
     
  10. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Let's face it, there is a very high likelihood Roldan is ahead of Holmes because …. MLS.
     
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  11. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    the two young promising american teen attackers who got looks are in mls, whereas the others clearly ahead of htem in the u20 pecking order....
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    dude, i don't have to "watch them in europe." i watched them play the other night, which is more pertinent. as it was you managed about 5 good chances and 2 total goals. you had 9 total shots, 5 on target, and some of the "on targets" were foot speed issues with ream or lovitz. you swap out the backs who shouldn't have been picked, those are negated, and it's not like you had a 20 shot night to begin with. we were steadily grinded, not completely whooped. start the right people and our defense and your offense would have been relatively even and IMO 1 goal max. your whole offense was foot speed, not something more repeatable like what we did to cuba. negate the foot speed and what's left.

    if we start the right mids, they have more offensive talent, they do not give the ball away all night, they do not lose the ball getting pressed as much, and you spend your night playing defense. if you spend your night playing defense, the mids can't service your forwards much and basically the dynamic flips.

    our keeper is better than yours, though steffen is a little overated. but we have to create enough for that to show.

    i have told anyone and everyone yedlin is a liability and allows precisely the goal he was allowed to give up again. cannon started the other night and many games recently. cannon does not get back doored. voila, down to 1-0 already. that is a selection choice. selections play selections. if we select right line by line the job gets done. i think you would give us a game at home, but we'd win 1-0, and then i think it would be 3-0 or 3-1 at home.

    the thing people have forgotten is as recently as last hex this was the dominant offense in concacaf with 17 GF in the Hex in 10 games. there are few of those components that are retired and literally gone, dempsey and nagbe. there are components of that that have been deliberately left out -- wood, for example. the midfield has been dismantled and rebuilt shoddily. that is a selection issue. fix that and we have several people who can score goals. green scores on france but is too bad to play canada somehow. stuff like that.

    i do find it interesting that canada is now more like a US team a decade or two ago, some scary pure speed elements that make it dangerous to anyone. and what you have going for you is a team commitment to defense and then whack it to the forwards. i don't believe in the slightest that is better than our best players. i believe it is tuned picture perfect to personnel and well prepared to take advantage of teams like us that have gone sloppy, disorganized, slow in places, sub par selection. but if we are organized and optimally selected, to me, sorry, no, it's like panama, frightening in moments, but containable by a well coached team. we should then have 2 lines of offense where you have 1.

    i give you credit for getting your team back on the good foot. but we are where we are because we are a mess in transition. a team not starting its best players falls back down to a similar talent level and then a little tactics and home spirit and there's your goals. but that's only happening because we are less than the sum of our parts.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? Because he seemed to be the US's only central defender. Ream was nowhere.
     
  14. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    The problem is that you frame this at a league level which should never be done. If Berhalter favors MLS because it is MLS then it's wrong. The fact that you do the reverse is just as wrong. A player is a player. That said, yes Berhalter has to fix his selection process.

    FYI, McKennie has issues with defensive half duels. Brooks is terrible at that. It is also Pulisic's worst attribute. Those are three auto starters (IMO) and all are in Europe. Adams is the only starter that is a duel winning machine. Altidore is decent enough. I'm sort of glad that he is hurt because it reveals the error being made. We definitely need to err on duel winning players on the rest of the roster choices. Particularly the midfield.

    Who are the duel winners that we need to select? Holmes is a definite. Pomykal is another. Nagbe is one of the most effective duel winners but I know he has no interest.
     
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  15. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are definitely not going to agree.
    He might be better in a year or two but I don't buy it for today.

    Lovitz isn't even the best American left back playing in Canada.
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Roldan has no goals for the NT in 18 games. to me he trends "Nagbe." who has 1 goal in 25 games. at that point i don't care who on paper has more club goals. it doesn't translate. we need to quit denying what is obvious for the Nats by continuing to drag out scouting claims based on how they fare with another team. it's a bait and switch. you can start a guy because he has 6 club goals til the cows come home but the odds are if he is stuck on 0 for the NT after more than a dozen games, and has like 1 decent shot on goal, that's what he offers there instead. i don't know why this lesson used to be so obvious with a player like twellman but now we're going to debate the gooseegg with club numbers forever. two different levels, two different numbers. some people translate, some don't.

    to me the mids have become a xerox of a xerox of a xerox of the old bradley/jones/beckerman lineup, crap defense, little offense.

    Holmes has tangible production for club and will get stuck in on defense.

    we need to decide what our midfield identity is -- offense, team defense, whatever -- and select to that. what i am looking at right now is a team that claims to want to pass selecting the ones who can barely complete one, and selecting people who are more defensive when it sounds like they want to be more offensive. that's a basic selection problem, IMO shows the coach is clueless.

    not only does the team look bad, but that kind of thing suggests he just doesn't "have it" and it's a waste of time giving him more matches to work on it. i am sure he gets at least two more, and i expect him to perseverate some more on about half what he needs to replace. he lacks the objectivity and nous to do what he intends.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #492 juvechelsea, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
    i had to look this up to remind myself, but how has no one brought up that he's not bothering to try to find our "Higuain?" i have seen endless parrots touting system and claiming what he did there was deep lying playmaking. that is, to put it politely, horsesh*t. he had a high class 10 sitting right behind a solid kamara striker and two alright wings. just like last time the crew were decent they had schelotto. without that he is pimping playmaking from the 6, which is not the same.

    this is not even really The System. let's be clear on that. it is two different things to go out there with both a good 10 and a 6 that can hit longballs, than to just go out there with a 6 who isnt even very good at that.

    it tells me what i need to know that 6 bradley was the one who looked even any offensive while the 10 roldan generally scrapped and lost the ball. it's not even that we have a CAM but they are merely ok. we're starting people up there who are trip over the ball types.
     
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  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Why is winning duels such a fixation, now? Doyle?
     
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  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the difference would be that the team has traditionally had a veteran core led by a handful of fully formed mid career studs. many of the people off that list have talent but haven't shown it consistently at this level and/or are early in their career. there is a difference between final product dempsey and early career sargent.

    the offense also just generally feels slapped together and "get it wide and hope." the two best players basically improvise.

    i mean, the US wins the ball in midfield. what is the plan to score. what is plan B if that doesn't work.

    no credit for bs about "playing between the lines, imbalancing," etc. who is playmaking. who is ball winning. how are we getting goals. what if they get back and a wide cross isn't on. are we really going to pass back to the keeper and try and come back wide AGAIN??? what is the non-cross strategy for getting the striker involved??
     
  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gregg started yet another game without a playmaker or a ball winner. How did he suppose we were going to score or defend?

    People say Bradley was boring but he started multiple playmakers and ball winners. He played to win. Look at the lineup from the 2011 Gold Cup final.
     
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  21. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I totally agree about the coaching part of it.

    And, ya, for me, for the U.S., Dempsey is GOAT.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the upcoming process is a bit fraudulent. he gets, what, a week more with the team?? easier pair of games?? to "prove" himself again? damage is done, far as I am concerned. maybe he loses at home to canada, at which point fire him on the spot, we're not making Nations League finals anyway. but let's say we win both with the necessary 4-5 goal difference to advance. do you feel any better?? if he makes it to next summer only to lose to (say) CR, will we fire him right before WCQ?? this is Klinsmann level leash length for someone who couldn't win MLS much less put 2 teams in the knockouts at world cups.
     
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  23. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    To me, the unsung missing link from the last cycle is Bedoya. He's got a lot of bite in the midfield. I'd start him over Roldan or Bradley.
     
  24. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I don't think we're qualifying for Qatar. There's no way we qualify with Jay's Brother. And, the fed's not canning him before WCQ's start.
     
  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    What most people are saying is that they didn't expect Egg would never change his system. They figured he used a certain system at Crew because that is what the situation dictated, in his judgment, and he made the best of it. They expected he would look at the National team and say ok this situation needs x, y z. Instead he convened camps where people were not taking the pitch before they were totally ingrained in his 'system' (when's the book coming out?;)).

    Some young fellow looking for something to do could write a book on the 'culture' which created the Berhalters', the 10%, nay 1%, nay 1/10th of 1% of US soccer.
     

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