Nations League A, Camp 1, Cuba/Canada, Oct. 11/15

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Pulisic. Boyd, Morris and Lleget versus weaker competition. Wes is good at a brief move, then pass kind of way but not a face and break down.


    I think Pulisic, Lleget and Holmes are all better options at the 10/CAM role that Green would likely play. Two were called into camp -- and Berhalter's rosters are basically 2 deep.

    At wing, I think most of our options are better than Green

    Are you trying to have an honest conversation, or just be an ass? Because you are succeeding at the latter.

    1) My Best XI right now only would run out, at most, 2 MLS players. I'm not adverse to European players at all.

    2) Yes, three years from a World Cup and staring at a lack of talent in the age 24-30 range, I damn well do prioritize young players, as they have more talent (if less experience) and will be hitting their stride in 2022.

    3) I have no idea where this one comes from.

    The truth is, though, that my criteria for selecting players is pretty simple:

    I actually watch the players and evaluate their skill sets both for overall quality and fit into the overall style of play the US is playing. I would select the best players for the role in the team, with special consideration for high potential players likely to improve over the next few years.

    Where they play is only relevant for gauging the opponent their skill is being executed against. I have no quotas for Europe or the Americas. I don't take one game or one performance as gospel -- there's such a thing as small sample size.

    It's telling to me that in all your response there's no real pitch for Julian Green. I question whether you even know his game. Your argument seems to be "EUROPE" and that's pretty much it.

    Here's my depth chart for the 10/CAM as is being played:

    1. McKennie (also #1 at the 8)
    2. Pulisic (#1 at wing)
    3a. Lleget (more dynamic offensively)
    3b. Holmes (more dynamic defensively)
    4. Pomykal (little more strength and he becomes a combination of Lleget and Holmes)
    5. Ledezma (could be #1 in a year, offensively at least)

    After that I think it gets fuzzy. Aaronson's better in space -- I think he's a winger on this team. Mendez has huge pluses but is further away than Ledezma in my mind. It just comes down at this point to what you want, and it's either untested youth or mediocre vets.

    Our biggest struggle at this spot is that our best two players for it are also #1s at other positions.
     
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  2. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    thanks for explaining coaches/managers wanting players to understand their instructions/game plans/general principles- i guess i was too busy building strawmen and gaslighting snowflakes or whatever the hell internet nonsense youre talking about.

    yes, less talented players can have roles in teams for reasons from being a "coach" on the floor to simply being a role player, or glue guy. thats not what this is.

    the idea that zardes, trapp or whoever is necessary- especially as justification for NOT looking at other options- isnt valid in international soccer (or is far, far less valid, i should say). you get a total of what, 8, 9 weeks over the course of a normal year that the team is actually together? why would anyone give berhalter more rope than literally every other intl manager in the world?

    people bend over backwards to protect and defend him- hes not managing the crew anymore. "system" coaches arent overly successful in intl play for a reason. i was a fan of his, and in the reality of our inbred joke of a fed was only ever considering one of our own i supported his hiring.

    and hes bungled this. his rosters are a majority role players, glue guys, coaches on the floor. he showing a staggering inability to adapt. we are just digging further and further in.

    we have to stop making excuses and he needs to find a way to put better talent on the pitch. berhalter having a team that suits him is NOT my priority- having the best team we, as a soccer nation, can is.
     
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  3. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You also have to beat the #4 Hex team. And you Oceania (NZ) percentage is only 33%.

    But first you have to win a 4/5 team group, then three two legged ties (QF/SF/F), THEN beat the #4 Hex team, THEN win the inter-continental playoff (vs CONMEBOL, Asia, or Oceania).

    So. No.
     
  4. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Great. Thank you.

    So, to get to the pre-playoff playoff:

    Hex team has to be the 4th best team in the Confed. Non-Hex team has to be the 7th best team in the Confed.

    When the odds come out after the Hex/non-hex is decided, I bet the odds of making the pre-playoff playoff are better for the first team out of the hex than for the last team in the hex.
     
  5. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I gotta say that I enjoy people willing to throw different perspectives out there in reasoned arguments but I totally disagree with this. I'm not a young person or a new fan and I suffered through 98' just like I did 2018. This premise is just wrong. It is simply not possible to change an entire soccer culture just by speaking it into existence. If we wanted to play a possession-based, positional play style, we would need to start implementing it in the youth teams right now to have it close to ready by 2026. The job of the national team coach really isn't to change a soccer culture despite what 2 of our last 3 coaches would have you believe. Their job is to find the best players at their disposal and devise a system that fits within the context of those players. This is what I think Gregg is missing.

    We've had several spells in our history where we were a pretty good possession team. Through much of the period from 02-06 we held onto the ball well and had some fullbacks that could bomb forward and provide nice combo-play and service. The early Klinsmann days were full of possession-heavy performances where we were the aggressor. Even Bob Bradley had a few spells where we were playing some fairly skillful center-mids and had Dempsey and/or Donovan (plus Altidore and Davies even at one point) to provide some class in the final third. We've also had some very direct/counter-attacking spells when our pool dictated it. I actually credit those coaches for being willing to work with the pool and adjust. Klinsmann's stubbornness and inability/refusal to do so cost him his job and played a big role in us not qualifying.

    I think Gregg's highly philosophical approach is a bad idea but I think he is coming around a bit. The truth is his philosophy is not as complicated as we tend to make it. There's a reason new guys can come in and look fine their first camp, it's because they're good players. No system will make Trapp and Lovitz look international caliber. Gregg needs to tone down this changing the culture stuff, go a bit more pragmatic ie don't make 50,000 fans pay for a scrimmage against Mexico, be willing to turn over the bottom third of the pool to the tune of calling in a few better players over the average MLS group (even though some of those other players would likely be from MLS), and I think he'd win most of us over.
     
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  6. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But you seem not to understand much (other than how to edit a quote to make it seem they said something they didn't). Aren't you cute!

    Anyway, continue on whining and screaming and disregarding common sense, quotes from the players, and whatever.

    Memo to you: Mexico is better than we are. No coach is going to change that. We finished 5TH in the Hex. Fifth! Of course there are sketchy players in the pool. 5th!

    It is gonna take some time to fix. Berhalter is doing fine. Not great. But fine. Runner up at Gold Cup is where we should finish and did.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    What do you diagree with? I think you have reading comprhension issues.

    Most of your arguments are based on your lower NCAA division trained eye. Common sense doesnt tell you that. Common sense would tell you MLS teams would struggle in the Championship with oddly constructed rosters. The salary and value of MLS teams are heavily wighted toward the top 3 to 5 players. MLS rosters also lack depth.

    We could also look at how these average MLS guys look when they go abroad. Sciareta wrote a puff piece about how Matt Polster wanted to get back into the national team with his move to Scotland. He is a player that was in a January camp and is at a similar level as the second half of these rosters. How is doing the team Hyndman was a regular starter and named young player of the year as a 20/21 yo? He made one one 26 min sub appearance their last league game (out of 8) after they went up 4-0.

    People were talking up Perry KItchen a few years ago. He started off ok at Hearts and even became captain, but was unable to finish a full season. He only started 4 of their last 13 and was an unused sub in 8 of them. He was unloaded to Randers before making his way back to MLS.

    Let see... who else made moves abroad and didnt light things up? Altidore, Yedlin, Miazga, etc. MLS didnt prepare these players for the EPL, La Liga or Eridivisie, but you think teams could hack it in the EPL?
     
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  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Which of our core players is playing anywhere close to his potential?

    McKennie?
    Pulisic?
    Steffen?

    I'll give a pass to Adams and Brooks due to injury unavailability.

    What about Trapp and Bradley since they're the centerpiece we're building around?

    How long until these players "get" the system so it's automatic for them? What if the system doesn't accentuate their strengths and minimize their developmental areas?
     
  9. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Ya, once you get to your "THEN" you're back to square one.

    It's still as simple as, to get to that match, the Hex team has to be at least 4th best team in the Confederation, while the non-Hex team only has to be the 7th best. Now, you're going to say "the Hex team could also be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best team in the Confed!" But, that's just saying the same thing as they have to be at least the 4th best team.

    Put another way, if Canada or the Sallies was good enough to finish in the top 3 of the Hex, is there any doubt they'd emerge from the non-Hex?

    So. Yes.

    But, mark this conversation. When the draw is set, Vegas will publish odds on making the WC. I'm guessing the odds will be better for the 1st one out of the Hex than the last one in.
     
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  10. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any flipping news in this thread?
     
  11. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    well, we were, in fact, better than mexico for a decade so i wouldnt say NO coach could change that...
     
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  12. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Klinsi certainly tried to change the mentality of the team from one of sheepish deference to one of assertiveness and belief. I still remember the ridicule he got when he brought motivational speakers in (phone book guy, etc). He was right to see that and try to change it...and in the course of doing that he went into European stalwart stadiums and earned victories never done before, though I would venture to say that the wins in Italy or Mexico didn't show much in the way of assertive soccer. Klinsmann brought belief. He did not bring a tactical shift...it was common knowledge that the players were somewhat frustrated by the lack of strategy or tactics. That's revealing in its own right...Klinsmann was asking them to understand the game and be confident in their ability to be coached gently and they were confused because they came from the bunker-n-break culture.

    The systemic proactive approach by Berhalter is the exact opposite of Klinsmann, and it probably should be because he's dealing with waves of inexperienced young players over the next 3 years. The proactive strategic and cultural shift is happening now, not in 2014. The idea that we will demand that all of our players be assertive in possession and on offense as a core tactic in all scenarios is 100% new.
     
  13. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    McKennie shows like a young player...he will impact the game and he will lose the game for stretches. But the great thing about McKennie, is that when he has found the game, he's a brilliant player. The stretches of losing the game will diminish both with age and with experience in Berhalter's system.

    Steffen has certainly had some outstanding moments with the Nats over the past year. He hasn't stood on his head yet and turned a game, but he has had some excellent play.

    These players will truly be coming into their own in the system during the last stages of the Hex and should be mastering it by Qatar. It's good long-term strategic planning by USSF. They just need to execute.
     
  14. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #989 TheHoustonHoyaFan, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    I suspect you have also not seen Green play? In anycase here is a comparison of the AMs used by GB. The numbers speak for themselves.

    WS (Whoscored), M(atches), G(oals), A(ssists), K(ey Pass), Th(rough), D(ribbles), S(tuffed), F(ouled), T(ackles), I(nterceptions)


    Player
    AgeWSMGAPass%KeyLongThDSFTI
    Aaronson186.44283180.5.9.3-.71.31.31.2.3
    Baird236.58315378.7.9.4-1.7.7.8.4
    Boyd246.1450084.7.2.4-.81.2.6.4
    Green246.9593084.71.91.9-11.22.31.9.6
    Gyau276.2280085.8.4.1-1.311.3.9.3
    Holmes246.4260176.2.8.7-11.5.71.2
    Lletget276.97293590.51.21.9-1.2.7.91.1.6
    Mihailovic206.66273183.81.41.5-.6.3.9.61.1
    Roldan247.13296385.81.14.6-1.21.12.11.9.7
     
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  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You didn't answer the question: which players appear to be nearing their ceiling after almost a year?

    It does sound like you think it will take two B1 players almost three years (since Berhalter to the last stages of the Hex) to learn the system. Is that what you think? Are you also implying that in the beginning of the Hex, we're going to be going through an adjustment period with at least two of our core players?
     
  16. wixson7

    wixson7 Member+

    May 12, 2009
    boulder
    The sticky part for the lower seed group is they have to win their group (easy) but then have 3 home/away knockout rounds after that. If they make it thru that then they play #4.

    Still would rather be in the Hex.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    And that 30th man from the Championship better than the last man on the MLS roster.

    Let's assume that I agree that MLS and the CHampionship (which I dont), I would still think your League 1/USL comparison is just ignorant. You think a league cobbled together in our disjointed structure with many teams being less than 5 years old is compared to one that is part of an integrated system that has been in place for over 100 years?

    btw, I found the bit about your playing ability very amusing.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #993 juvechelsea, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    My eye said I was better than people Fulham was running out in what was then the Second Division and now League One, and most of who I saw in the Third Division aka League Two. You can throw in little personal digs but it doesn't change what I saw.

    Nor, if you do some digging, should that surprise if you look up what players that far down make. It becomes USL type money crossing over into semi-pro.

    The only reason we don't saturate those levels is work permits and how they interact with salaries. DeMerit or Gooch with the right passport might put up with it on the road to someplace else, or because they love Sunderland. But the reality is by the time you could net a work permit, your market value would exceed what teams in those lower divisions will pay. Unless you purposefully took a salary haircut below MLS just to play in England, it structurally doesn't work.

    In short, even if a NCAA kid or USL or average MLS could hack these levels, they won't get a permit. If they will get a permit, they are already USMNT and will cost more than those levels will pay. Catch 22. This is why Tony Meola is no longer at Brighton so to speak. And I think he had a second passport.

    However, we had a 17 year old kid from FCD academy with the right passport handling League One just fine. He is not even up to the U20 worlds type teams yet.

    Same thing with Scotland and Hyndman and others. Weah had great per 90 numbers there. Hyndman actually looked decent the game I saw him this year. Some people like Boca and Edu had success going there on a free, but outside those circumstances, we are awkward acquisitions. Maybe two teams might pay what we deserve, and would probably not pay the fee to acquire you, but take you on a free. Knowing we won't hang around, do you build the team around Americans??

    Whether MLS teams lack the same depth -- an argument I might buy -- is immaterial to NT selection......
    THIS
    IS
    NOT
    ABOUT
    TEAMS
    WE
    CALL
    PLAYERS

    Whether the 20th guy on their roster is better than our 20th guy, so what. This is not Dynamo vs Sunderland for a 7 game series played daily and you need your bench. This is about #1 or #2 American on each team, give or take. Whether the 20th guy is USL adjacent doesn't matter. Whether he would be worse than his British equivalent doesn't matter. We are not calling Eric Bird of the margins of Houston Dynamo/RGV Toros to the NT. it doesn't matter if his equivalent from League One would be a better player. It only matters if "Memo," the best American on the team, is good enough.

    Furthermore, if you are "above" the level where you play -- as many NT pool players are -- you can't pin them down specifically to their league level. Thus Gooch doesn't entirely embarrass himself on the NT from League One (I think he's just OK but he could hack the level well enough). We have some team leaders in Championship and MLS. We have B.1 and EPL. You are throwing around a broad brush of teams that doesn't assess the individuals involved, who are who I really want instead.

    MLS current exports:
    Adams Cameron Harkes Miazga Polster Ream Saief Sarkodie Steffen Yedlin

    that leaves out the historical names Dempsey McBride Max-Moore Lewis etc etc

    you leave out Adams Cameron Steffen Yedlin Steffen the no doubters

    and then for the ones like Jozy you leave out if they have a mix of good and bad years that suggest any one team might have been simply a misfit.

    I mean Jozy only probably has the record goals for a US first division player abroad, from AZ. Yes, Hull etc is fair counter-context. But you don't get to erase the good year and pretend it doesn't exist. That is literally probably as good as any American has ever done in exile.

    Last, even if your "but these MLS guys weren't great abroad" met my "but these ones were good," it basically cancels out, nets out to cut the abstract crap and look at each one personally, which is my argument not yours. Between the two of us we basically prove leagues have little predictive power. I say Europe doesn't prove anything definitive, you say the same for MLS. There, we proved club doesn't say anything alone.

    I think you could argue it's possible that an elite big league starter might be beyond question, or a lower division player past a certain point too big a stretch. But the reality is Pulisic has off nights and DeMerit worked from the bottom. The league argument proves very little and is basically the snob suggestion you can just walk out and put your club shirt on the field and not actually play, which is not how soccer or much of any sport works.

    I think it's a scouting requirement to try and come up with ways to compare apples and oranges. But once they play for the USMNT that's a controlled common environment, and there are the ones who stand out, the ones who get by, and the ones who suck. Your continued presence should relate to your contributions on that continuum. Yesterday I actually had someone argue that suckage was somehow unclear and shouldn't be definitive, and now you're trying to further muddle the whole objective apparatus by saying go back to scouting when field performance fails. Why are we playing games if we're going to ignore what they teach??
     
  19. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    what's the point of bringing in Johnson if Guzan always seems to start the matches that Steffen doesn't? Is Johnson just there for training purposes? If so, why not include Gonzalez or any other young keeper in that role.

    Guzan has proved himself with us but let him go. Makes no sense to start him against Cuba. Let Johnson handle that task.

    Going forward, I'd be content with

    Steffen as no.1 with Horvath as solid no.2 and Johnson/Gonzalez as the no.3 option.
     
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  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I am struggling to think of NT time periods where the goal of these games was less to prove who the Pulisics and McKennies are, identifying performers, than to try and convince ourselves that the weak Trapps and Bradleys and Roldans might be capable of muddling through. That is basically walking talking confirmation bias. It's the difference between keeping the performers even if they surprise, and trying to confirm a lineup works and grading it on a vicious curve.

    Worse, this is literally setting yourself up for the Mexico letdowns, and then even with those definitive lessons we persevere, apparently conceding first place.
     
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  21. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Our players tend to get injured for so long, that if I were a Euro club, I'd be wary of buying Yanks.

    I know it happens everywhere, but with us it's brutal. As soon as one of our guys is looking good, boom, injury and out for six months or worse. Puli and McKennie have been the bright spots about that, so far.
     
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  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i have two guzan issues, one, he was handed the 1 jersey in howard's absence and presided over a lot of important bad nights last cycle eg Jamaica GC semi, Panama GC final, Mexico regional playoff, Colombia CA, Argentina semi CA, Mexico WCQ, CR WCQ. he was also in goal last year for Peru 1-1 and England 0-3. at some point this should lead to a conclusion. sometimes with GKs there is the illusion of "if he had to play in a big game he would surprise." there is no such illusion here. his MLS stats aren't even that great. we should be moving on.

    also, with him at 35 (and Ream 32, Bradley 32, Omar 31), we still haven't learned the jermaine jones lesson of looking at ages on the roster and planning ahead. the smarter approach is move on and then if there is an emergency you see if he can still play. we are instead baking over the hill right into the cake. we seem to like experience, but the odds are definitively against you beating age risks with any consistency.

    i might not be as grouchy if this was the experienced 3rd keeper clipboard carrier. but this is the 2nd keeper that will probably see playing time. that slot should be a performer slot and not an honorific. think the US tradition of keeper being a dogfight has basically degraded into a succession line and the position has suffered for it. but then we don't reward performance and punish shoddiness on the field enough either.
     
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  23. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Well, I looked at the FIFA rankings.

    Below Canada and The Sallies come Panama, then TnT, then Antigua&Barbuda, then St. Kitts&Nevis.

    I mean, come on ….. the alternate path to the playoff game against the Hex 4th place team is that you can't trip up against the likes of Antigua or St. Kitts, and worse. Then, you have to win a home and home with either Panama or Trinidad. There may be some bizarre seeding error where you'd have to beat both Panama and Trinidad. But, barring that, you beat one or the other of those teams and you're in.

    I'd much rather have that path to the concacaf playoff game than having to finish above two of:

    Mex
    U.S.
    Costa Rica
    Jamaica
    Honduras

    If you're Canada or the Sallies, would you rather have to beat Panama in a home and home, or have to finish above Jamaica and Honduras in the hex? Here is what Panama has done for the last year or so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_national_football_team#2019
     
  24. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    #999 matabala, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    Thanks for that very informative post re Berhalter's "system".

    The whole approach sounds overly wonky and counter-intuitive to the now old-fashioned idea of fluid football a la brasilienne.

    Still searching for where to play your most talented players? Sounds like a bad nightmare, right out of The Revenge of the Soccer X & O Bean Counters.

    Seems like he's working from the wrong end of the carrot. In a nutshell, he wants to mold his "system" players into a supposed coherent whole rather than finding the most coherent players who, through the trial and error process, develop into THEIR most capable whole. I'm a big believer in letting teams develop their identity through the inductive process. The creme will rise to the top and no one's natural inclinations are stunted in the process. You won't build a successful structure when a coach insists on fitting a square into his rigid idea of a circle. The end product is a whole that is equal only to the value of it's least individual part.
     
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  25. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    You need to watch the games. But following all our Yanks in Europe would be a full-time job, so I limit myself to the 12 or so most sexy ones.

    Truth is, form fluctuates a lot. Julian Green has been in very good form since the start of this season. He's cooling off a bit of late, but he's still looking dangerous.

    It's not going to last, though. Like Morales, Lichaj, or even Pulisic, Brooks and Yedlin, our players in Europe have their ups and downs, like any player.

    At the national team level that has to be taken into account. And if a guy is well-integrated in the team, he may be able to manage, whatever the fluctuations, and be useful for the team.

    Besides the very top players and a few legendary Pokémon who are always good for their NTs (in our case, guys like Deuce and Landon), you have to come to terms with the fact that, after investing a lot of time and effort fitting a guy into the team, it's entirely possible he gets so out of form, you either start again the process with someone else, or carry him around on the bench just in case he gets hot again.
     

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