England Senior Team General Discussion Thread

Yeah and what a shock that it’s The Sun that has this story!!! They’re still obviously upset that he shat on their paper when they wrote a bloody story about his rucksack! Honestly, The Sun just loves to shit stir! Horrible Rag!

 

I can at least see the logic behind picking Keane over Gomez even if I don't agree with it.

The Winks one baffles me though. He's playing regularly for his club, playing CL football and has been their best player on a few occasions this season (alright, he wasnt great against Bayern.) His last competitive match for England was the away win against Spain. What more does he need to do?

 

Keane is woeful at the moment and a liability! I know Gomez looked rusty for Liverpool the other week but I would still have him over Keane, I would also have Tomori over Keane but maybe Bulgaria away isn’t the best place to give him his debut in a game we need to win.

Pickford
TAA
Gomez
McGuire
Chillwell
Winks
Henderson
Barkley
Rashford
Kane
Sterling

I also think Sancho needs a rest, he hasn’t been in that good form for Dortmund lately and that form was with him the other night even though he didn’t exactly have the supply line to him. I know Rashford is also struggling at the moment but maybe it might be a game for him.

Not a great scenario though tbh trying to decide which players are less out of form than others

 

So they expect maddison to sit in a box until the next Leicester game?

 

He’s that, isn’t he?

 

I used to think he was just about tolerable but obviously moving over to The Sun newspaper and rubbing shoulders with the likes of Neil Custis is having a negative effect on him!

 

Rice wasn’t involved in training today. Not sure if it’ll keep him out of tomorrow’s game.

 

Well, that would be Winks's ticket in, wouldn't it? So that's at least three changes (I'm assuming that the two fullbacks will be rotated.)

 

No further updates on whether Rice’s injury rules him out. Rose has left the camp because he’s suspended anyway.

 

Start tomori, taa, chilwell and winks for me. Sancho showed some nice touches on Friday. Keep the same front three

 

I'd start Gomez before Tomori, I like Tomori but he's still a bit error prone

 

I think it's harsh to come down like a tonne of bricks on Southgate at this stage. I am starting to ask questions of him and believe there are some potential red flags appearing, but I will reserve full judgement at this stage as he has put us in a much better place than where we were when he took over. Admittedly, the bar wasn't set high and he inherited a team still in the aftermath of probably the worst result in our history.

However, despite this, he's stabilised, unified and taken the team forward, created a fantastic team spirit and culture in the dressing room and provided a solid platform for future success. In addition to giving us the greatest wc campaign since Italia 90.I feel this can't be undervalued and if he was to leave tomorrow, he would do so with his head held high.

The issue Southgate has though, is that this next chapter is going to be very different from the one in which he entered. Whereas his remit when he took over was to pick up the pieces of a beleaguered, broken dressing room, restore pride, put his arm around the players and start building for the future, the bar is now going to be significantly elevated in the coming years. I believe we have a fantastic generation of players coming through, the quality and options available to Southgate now are significantly stronger than when he took over/ two or three years ago. When you combine this with the world cup run, the expectations have been raised significantly and we are expected to dine at the top table.

The issue for Southgate is that this chapter will require different managerial skills to the previous one. When you have such a limited pool of players as he did pre- Russia, it is just about being pragmatic, creating a tight knit group, getting players to work as hard as possible and seeing where it takes you. Now however, it is about playing better football, competing against the best sides and trying to be tournament contenders. This requires much more work on the training ground and tactical input, in addition to instilling a winning mentality and it remains to be seen whether he has these skills or not.

 

Yeah, good shout IMO.

He obviously looks a bit lost on occasion and he's not picking enough, (or, indeed, any really), creative guys in midfield but let's not go overboard.

As to the talk of a back 3, personally I think if it gives him license to pick a creative guy in midfield maybe it'll work out for the better?

I dunno but I'm prepared to give it a try.

 

No more licence than picking a purely defensive midfielder in Rice, and we're still seeing Henderson thrown in alongside him for extra "solidity". Even setting aside the issues that others have already raised if Southgate goes with a 3-5-2 (rather than 3-4-3), it doesn't really solve anything.

 

True but the thing is that with the right personnel 3 players is enough to cope with most sides that play with one up front. More to the point, we haven't got guys like Xavi or Iniesta so, bluntly, we NEED more 'bodies' there to cope.

Personally I think that, against most international sides, having a defensive shield in front of our defence, (an out and out defensive midfielder, IOW), actually gives us MORE defence than less when compared to having four at the back and the point about having the right personnel is the case anyway, as the last game shows.

I mean, I don't know. It just seems to make more sense for us as a side that doesn't have the sort of high quality midfielders some other top sides have available.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing

Pickford - TAA, Gomez, Maguire, Tomori, Chillwell - Henderson, Winks - Sancho, Kane, Sterling

Or even Rice in midfield, but only in a big game, maybe in a tournament. Not what we need in these qualifiers.

Not sure what I want now, just worried about Southgate deciding to lump on Rice as the answer. I do kinda suspect he'd love to have Dier back in there. Which I wouldn't mind and still wouldn't rule out, but only if he was somewhere near his 2019 level. At this point, that seems like such a long time ago though.

 

I think that team would still struggle to keep the ball and get it to the forwards against any half-decent opposition.

On a more fundamental level, there's a long-running and rather wearing theme of England coaches abdicating the initiative. Stating the obvious here, but the vulnerability of a side comes down to two very broad factors:

1. How well they resist opposition attacks, and
2. How often they need to.

It's frustrating to see that, again, we're focusing so heavily on the former that it's almost entirely to the exclusion of the latter. Not to suggest that we could choose to be Barcelona if we wanted to, but we do have options.

 

Very strange that the Spain away game isn't used as a benchmark, DM (Dier at the time) Winks (our only ball recycling CM at the moment) and Barkley. Barkley, Maddison or Foden ideally. We didn't dominate possession against Spain but this allowed us not to be under constant pressure and to counter them. We don't need Iniesta or Xavi, we're very strong upfront quite strong at the back, what we need is a midfield that won't completely crumble under pressure. This is the one single thing the last 30 years have taught us, the no nonsense hardworkers who're poor under pressure simply do not work at this level, it's not that international level is better than CL level, it's just a different tempo that does not suit them.

 

Even at Liverpool, Henderson doesn’t offer the defensive solidity that Southgate seems to think he does, so I’m not sure where the idea he’s a defensive midfielder comes from. He doesn’t consistently track runners and, to me anyway, is not always aware what is around him for someone in a defensive position. What Henderson offers is continuity in possession (some say he only passes sideways and backwards ) and closing down and pressing when not in possession. If you want the best from him, play him further up the pitch where he will force quick turnovers and hence scoring chances.

We’re back to the Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes conundrum where we shoehorned excellent players into positions where they were not as comfortable (they should find a way to play together, said the pundits) and found they offered less than the individual parts. And it wasn’t just Sven but McClaren, Capello with hundreds of pundits in the media stridently agreeing.

 

Interesting interview with Roy keane talking about top midfielders he'd played, both with and against, over the years...



One thing he said that I've always thought. That players today have a good run of form for, say, a month and are patting themselves on the back. As he said, the best players do it for years on end.

 

The fact that Southgate sees Henderson as a defensive midfielder shows how clueless he really is . The fact of the matter by any objective measurement Henderson is a very limited midfielder . He does one thing well and that is press the opposition . He is solely a workhorse.

Honestly i would like somebody to name a more limited midfielder who has played for England in the past thirty years . Henderson has really got the rub of the green through out his career. He could easily be playing in the championship now .

 

What he says in that interview about the standard of midfielder not been the same today . I couldn't agree more . He mentions Davd Batty and Nicky Butt . While both players were seen as limited midfielders at the time who broke up play . They could both play a bit . They were decent on the ball .

The likes of Henderson and rice who are their comparisons today offer nothing on the ball . They are far more limited footballers than batty and butt.

 

Ironically, Henderson's pressing and ability to cover ground wouldn't be needed if he could actually look after the ball and exert some form of control. Unfortunately, his complete inability to do this is what means we are left chasing shadows in midfield in the first place.

Regarding the rumoured 3atb, if Southgate experiments in midfield and gives Winks a game, then I actually don't mind it. The main positive is that it would give a game to another, better centre back option such as Gomez or Tomori. Obviously I don't want us to play this system long-term as it will mean no front 3. However, as some posters have said, Sancho looks tired as does Rashford so it may be for the best that they get a rest in this game.

However, if he sticks with the same personnel in midfield then there will be hell to pay. All this change would do then is make our most dangerous player in Sterling less effective whilst providing no extra fluidity or control in midfield.

 

I don’t really understand the calls the Gomez to be playing. He’s barely starting for Liverpool now and when he has played he’s been pretty awful.

I’m surprised Dunk hasn’t been called up. He’s been in excellent form recently and he’s good on the ball

 

As another point, who, if there are any, are our best hopes long-term at filling the void in terms of being that classy, silky, technical midfielder who can dictate the tempo of a game and make a team tick? I've heard good things about Garner, could he be the one if given the chance? In terms of going even younger, what are people's hopes for Azeez at Arsenal? Or Patino? Are there any other players I missed? Also, in terms of developing this type of cultured player in general, is there a shift happening at youth level where more of these types of player are coming through or is it sadly a case of same old, same old with more of the all action, industrious workhorses still being the norm?