Yep. I agree that we're probably not having this discussion if Arena fields fresh legs against Trinidad that day, but I also think it would have been a mistake to avoid this discussion in that circumstance. Even prior to the T&T loss, there were clear signs that something was off. We lost twice as many home games in 2018 qualifying as we had in the entire modern era of US soccer qualifying dating back to the mid 80s. (A weird 3-2 loss against Honduras in 2001 where Earnie Stewart missed a penalty,) Sure, both of those losses were against decent teams, but they were also both teams we'd never lost a home qualifier to prior to that. And the drastic dip in youth tournament results is pretty clear and unmistakable, and can't be as easily attributed to a single bad decision or manager.
We just won 6-0 against a T&T team that was fielding most of the same lineup from that Couva encounter, and Gyassi Zardes tore them apart. A terrible team with fresh legs could have gotten a point off Trinidad on that night.
I find that ironic. At my college ( NCAA Basketball Big East) nearly the entire basketball team got tutored/ cheated/ stumbled through 4 years academically. If they stressed academics, these students should have never been accepted
I should have prefaced it with the big caveat that soccer is not seen as a revenue sport at the majority of NCAA members. Men's Basketball and Football bring in all of the money at most NCAA schools.* *yes I know there are outliers with Men's Hockey, a few Big 10 Wrestling programs, and Women's Basketball.
Basketball and American football are revenue sports. They don't necessarily make money for the University, since they tend to have high expenses, but these are the high profile sports that many Universities have decided that winning is everything. Since there's no real revenue in college soccer, Universities are more likely to follow the principles they probably should be following for everything.
I know, that was my point. Conveniently trotting out “ academics first!!!” When in actuality it’s a load of crap.. they would be better off keeping quiet and avoiding the conversation rather than contradict themselves.
it was mistake to go with the same team as a three days ago and to try to play attractive attacking soccer but the primary sin for arena is that he built his squad with the express intent to showcase MLS. Should an MLS team beat TnT? yep but the odds are lower than if he, you know, took the best players.
Those are the guys who were in the 23 on the night. That midfield is a lot tougher than what was actually fielded and this team has guys in their best position. Dax 6 Benny 10 Bedoya 8 Arriola 8 would have dominated T&T.
The lost generation had a lot of guys just not develop but I also think once Jurgen got hired we focused more on getting Mexican American kids into the syste . Now I understand why they did that but that strategy was a bust (and again correct me if I am wrong that we took a couple years focusing on that) But the MLS at the time was still focusing more on getting brand exposure compared to improving quality of play. I could be wrong but I think missing 2 Olympics as well as disastrous showings in the u20 WC in 2013 (I think) played a part but that's around the time you saw more of a focus shift to the academies. Long story short, we were way behind on player development.
Just a quick breakdown of international caps from our U-20 rosters: 2001: Edson Buddle (11), Conor Casey (19), Brian Carroll (8), Kyle Martino (8), Bobby Convey (46), Landon Donovan (157), Brad Davis (17), Alecko Eskandarian (1), DaMarcus Beasley (126), and Oguchi Onyewu (69) total of 462 caps. 46.2 caps per player. 35.5 caps per year (years capped at 13 years) This team took 4 points in the group stage against Ukraine, China, and Chile. Lost 2-0 in the round of 16 against Egypt. 2003: Justin Mapp (8), Chad Marshall (12), Eddie Johnson (63), Santino Quaranta (15), Bobby Convey (46), Ricardo Clark (34), Freddy Adu (17), Clint Dempsey (141), and Drew Moor (5) total of 341 caps. 37.9 caps per player. 26.2 caps per year (years capped at 13 years) This team took 6 points in the group stage against Paraguay, South Korea, and Germany. It beat Ivory Coast 2-0 in the round of 16. Lost to Argentina 2-1 in extra time in the quarters. 2005: Brad Evans (27), Danny Szetela (3), Lee Nguyen (9), Freddy Adu (17), Eddie Gaven (8), Chad Barrett (1), Benny Feilhaber (44), Sacha Kljestan (52), Jonathan Spector (36), and Marvell Wynne (5) total of 202 caps. 20.2 caps per player. 15.5 caps per year (year capped at 13 years) This team took 7 points in the group stage against Argentina, Germany, and Egypt. It lost to Italy 3-1 in the round of 16. 2007: Michael Bradley (150), Danny Szetela (3), Robbie Rogers (18), Dax McCarty (13), Freddy Adu (17), Jozy Altidore (115), Anthony Wallace (1), Sal Zizzo (1), and Tony Beltran (3) total of 321 caps. 35.7 caps per player. 24.7 caps per year. This team took 7 points in the group stage against Poland, Brazil and South Korea. It beat a strong Uruguay team 2-1 in extra time in the round of 16. It lost to Austria in extra time 2-1 in the quarters. 2009: Brek Shea (34), Jorge Villafana (21), Ike Opara (1). Mix Diskerud (38), Gale Agbossoumonde (1), and Sean Johnson (8) total of 103 caps. 17.2 caps per player. 9.4 caps per year This team took 3 points in the group stage against Germany, South Korea, and Cameroon. It did not advance. 2011: DNQ 2013: Luis Gill (2), Kellyn Acosta (23), Zac Steffen (16), Caleb Stanko (1), and Deandre Yedlin (59) total of 101 caps. 20 per player. 14.42 caps per year This team took 1 point in the group stage against Spain, France, and Ghana. It did not advance. Note that two of the bigger cap winners played in 2015 as well, so these bad numbers are even a little more inflated. 2015: Zac Steffen (16), Shaq Moore (5), Cameron Carter-Vickers (8), Matt Miazga (18), Kellyn Acosta (23), Paul Arriola (29), Emerson Hyndman (2), Rubio Rubin (7), Marky Delgado (6), and Erik Palmer-Brown (2) total of 116 caps. 11.6 caps per player. 23. 2 caps per year. This team took 6 points in the group stage against Ukraine, New Zealand, and Myanmar. They beat Colombia 1-0 in the round of 16. They lost to Serbia (eventual champions) 0-0 on penalties in the quarters. 2017: Erik Palmer-Brown (2), Cameron Carter-Vickers (8), Tyler Adams (10), Jeremy Ebobisse (1), Josh Sargent (10), and Luca de la Torre (1) total of 32 caps. 5.3 caps per player. 10.7 caps per year. This team took 5 points in the group stage against Saudi Arabia, Senegal, and Ecuador. They beat New Zealand 6-0 in the round of 16. They lost 2-1 in extra time against Venezuela. Venezuela lost 1-0 to England in the final. 2019: Quick summary. Weah, Dest, and Pomykal already have 11 caps between them. We know how they did in the tournament. So conclusions: From 2001-2007 we advanced in each u-20 world cup that we played in. Using 15 caps and 40 caps as line for productive nats players. *I'm not counting a 40 cap player as a 15 cap player* 2001: 15 caps- two players 40 caps- four players 2003: 15 caps- three players 40 caps- three players 2005: 15 caps- three players 40 caps-two players 2007 15 caps- two players 40 caps- two players In 2009 a year we did not get out of the group stage we had three players have more than 15, but less than 40 caps. No players have exceeded 40 caps. 2011 we did not qualify 2013: 15 caps- two players 40 caps-one player 2015 15 caps- four players 2017: I predict that CCV will get above 15 caps, with Tyler Adams and Josh Sargent most likely being able to best the 40 cap threshold. Almost a repeat of the 2007 team which contained Altidore and Bradley. 2009-2013. There are your clear signs of a lost generation. We had poorer results at the tournament, poor graduation to the national team, and the graduation we did have only really yielded one impact starter (Yedlin). Interestingly enough the 2009 team? 9 players on it were playing in college. Fast forward to 2013 and the only college player was Zac Steffen. I think it's pretty clear that the lost generation was caused in part because of talent being shifted away from the collegiate system (or being ignored by USMNT) and being funneled into a relatively new academy system that probably needed its kinks worked out. It looks like the kinks are worked out and the middle of this decade was a necessary hiccup in our maturation as a soccer developer.
And yet... go back and look at the T&T squad that day. It was almost a U-23 squad, with several USL players starting. We could have picked an entire team literally at random from the list of Americans who were regular starters in MLS, and we would have outclassed them at almost every position. A combination of complacency and tired legs on a soggy field did us in. Don't think that was the case. Arena didn't really build a squad at all, he worked with almost exactly the same players he inherited from Klinsmann. The way he saw it, his mission was to take the fewest risks possible and then work new players in after qualifying.
Here's what ussf's website says of Klinsmann's roster for the start of the 2016 Hex (apologies but I couldn't find the link with the actual roster): "The U.S. roster for this pair of World Cup qualifiers against Mexico and Costa Rica is made up of four goalkeepers, nine defenders, nine midfielders and four forwards. A total of 15 players have been a part of a U.S. World Cup roster, while 20 have previous World Cup qualifying experience. The 26 players ply their trade in seven different countries: USA (8), Germany (7), England (4), Mexico (3), Canada (2), Norway (1), and Liechtenstein (1)." So, 8 out of 26 are MLS or 31% of the total. Here's what Arena did for the last two games of the Hex: Goalkeepers (3): Brad Guzan (Atlanta), Tim Howard (Colorado), Nick Rimando (Salt Lake) Defenders (9): DaMarcus Beasley (Houston), Matt Besler (Kansas City), Geoff Cameron (Stoke, England), Omar Gonzalez (Pachuca, Mexico), Michael Orozco (Tijuana, Mexico), Tim Ream (Fulham, England), Jorge Villafana (Santos Laguna, Mexico), DeAndre Yedlin (Newcastle, England), Graham Zusi (Kansas City) Midfielders (9): Kellyn Acosta (Dallas), Juan Agudelo (New England), Paul Arriola (D.C.), Alejandro Bedoya (Philadelphia), Michael Bradley (Toronto), Benny Feilhaber (Kansas City), Dax McCarty (Chicago Fire), Darlington Nagbe (Portland), Christian Pulisic (Borussia Dortmund, Germany) Forwards (4): Jozy Altidore (Toronto), Clint Dempsey (Seattle), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose), Bobby Wood (Hamburg, Germany) 17 out of the 25 are MLS or 68% (which is very consistent with what Berhalter has done). Here's his direct comments when asked about the devastating loss to TnT and if wholesale changes need to be made: he immediately went to a defense of an MLS heavy roster. “There’s nothing wrong with what we’re doing,” Arena argued. “Certainly, I think if our league continues to grow it benefits the national team program. We have some good players coming up. Nothing has to change. To make any kind of crazy changes I think would be foolish. We’re building a consistent professional league.”
Not that it changes your point, but you forgot to add the two "Canada" players into the MLS total for Klinsy's two games. So, it was 10 out of the 26 - ~38.5%.
We need our YOUNG GUNS/Our best and Brightest to be in Europe. They can't expect to just move there at age 27 and perform miracles. Sure, a season or 2 in MLS isn't bad. But age 20/21/22 they need to plying themselves, whether it's in Belgium or Netherlands or 2 Bundesliga.
I agree. Next in line needs to be: This Year: -Paxton Pomykal -Brenden Aaronson -Reggie Cannon -Andrew Carleton -Frankie Amaya -Cole Bassett -Djordje Mihailovic -Jesus Ferreira -Jeremy Ebobisse -Aaron Long -Walker Zimmerman -Justen Glad -Gianluca Busio -Auston Trusty Next Year: -Miles Robinson -Jackson Yuiell -James Sands -George Bello -Mark McKenzie -Sebastian Anderson -Julian Araujo -Mason Toye Should consider coming home: -Andrija Novakovich -Bobby Wood -Aron Johannsson -Romain Gall -Lynden Gooch -Kenny Saief -Gboly Ariyibi -Kyle Scott -Mix Diskerud -Fabian Johnson -Brendan Hines-Ike -Danny Williams -Rubio Rubin -Desevio Payne -Julian Green -Shaq Moore -Mukwalle Akale -Matthew Olosunde
there’s a lot of guys on this list whose ceiling doesn’t appear to be much higher than MLS/B2/championship. The gap between this level and the big 4 is quite big - not sure we need a lot of these players heading over. I also disagree with the notion that players should move laterally from MLS to championship/B2. I would like them to go to leading academies while youth prospects and not wait until they’ve matured as players.
I don’t mind them starting there. I’m thinking of the DeAndre Yedlin route. Although he signed with Tottenham first and ended up with Newcastle in the Premiership, he cut his teeth in the Championship. For someone like Justen Glad, I could see him getting a decent shot in the Championship and if he impresses, he could eventually work his way into the PL. Otherwise, I see him stagnating in MLS. For most of our attackers, I prefer the Eredivise. Our players tend to do well there and they get good exposure. And, the Bundesliga has proven good for young players. I could see someone like Pomykal succeeding there. Whereas, Carleton might have to try out somewhere like Venlo, or maybe Rangers/Celtic/etc where the league is not that good but it’ll help toughen him up and give him exposure.
And for those who falter and never achieve 1st division or prominence within their squad, they can def help us with competition for depth. We need our players to not grow idle with complacency. They need to stay on point and fight for their starting spot ALWAYS.
The ones actually in the starting eleven were largely the same as Klinsmann's squad, though. The changes were mostly on the bench. Also, at least two players (Guzan, Arriola) moved from overseas to MLS during the Hex, while no one moved in the other direction.
Here's the starting lineup that Arena had for Couva Wood Jozy Pulisic nagbe Bradley Arriola Villafana Omar Besler Yedlin with 3 field players from Europe (plus one that had been former top level European) and the rest MLS / Mexico. All three midfielders were from MLS. Here's Klinsmann's vs. Costa Rica Wood Jozy Pulisic Bradley Jones Johnson Besler Omar Brooks Chandler with 5 field players from europe (plus two that had been former top level European) and the rest MLS / Mexico. Here's Klinsmann vs. Mexico Wood Jozy Johnson Pulisic Jones Chandler Omar Brooks Besler with 5 field players from europe (plus two that had been former top level European) and the rest MLS / Mexico There were also the memorial Arena words where he effectively said that "we have players in MLS who play that position", which simply served to back up the awful things he said before he was coach. Next, Danny Williams stated that "I heard from a few people that they tried to ‘market the MLS’ a bit more, in the [World Cup] qualifying games and get a name for the MLS"
shocking...you think the issue is...mls bias when ur at work and they say hey serving times in drive thru are too long...do you yell 'its mls bias thats causing the issue'?