England Senior Team General Discussion Thread

Yeah but the obvious problem there is it isn’t working! Even having Rice & Henderson makes no difference plus if you have two players that can’t keep the ball, there’s no point, I mean surely Southgate understands if you keep losing the ball = more pressure that’s going to be coming back.

 

Except I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect a CM at international level to be able to receive under pressure, play with their head on a swivel, have a wide range of passing, be accurate with their passing etc. This comes back to my original point, if Henderson can't adapt and do these things, he should fall by the wayside and we should try other options like Winks. I don't think we should have to abandon our philosophy or adapt and play a more rugged, basic brand of football which also won't be successful just to accomodate him.

 

The first half was mostly down to that Rice-Henderson double pivot. To me Southgate just proves over and over again that he doesn't understand the qualities needed for the midfield roles in his system. To expect Henderson of all people to receive the ball with his back to the opposition, turn, and then pass through the lines was lunacy, especially when Southgate doesn't appear to coach midfield rotation. That lesson should have been learned years ago, even Klopp doesn't trust him as a sitting midfielder any more.

I think as a former defender Southgate looks at the midfield, especially the holding position(s), as nothing more than a screen for the back four. He seems to look at progressing the ball through the thirds as something mundane and pedestrian, as if all of his midfielders at this level can do it, and what he needs to worry about is having the legs in the centre to win the ball back when we inevitably lose it. The correlation between midfielders who aren't press-resistant, the frequency with which we lose the ball, and the numbers of chances we give away on the counter seems lost on him.

He wants to play progressive possession football but then populates the starting XI with players that can't do it. I don't care that Gomez isn't getting game time, he's the best partner to Maguire in the squad. I don't care that Foden can't get in front of the Silva's or De Bruyne, he's the best #8.5 we have. And I don't care that Winks isn't a man mountain, he's the best holding player for this system we have. The bigger problem might be Pickford. He can't play with his feet, and the only English keeper that can (or could) - Angus Gunn - seems to have had it coached out of him, and isn't in great form in any case.

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater though. It's surely better to try and get someone in to help Southgate with his weaknesses than take a punt on someone new. We can re-evaluate after the Euros.

 

Regarding goalkeepers and their distribution, who are the best candidates coming through at using their feet?

 

The odd thing is that Southgate was a midfielder himself until he was about 25.

 

Baseline level is so much higher nowadays. Pickford’s skillset will look decidedly normal.

Someone like Serrine Sanneh basically fancies himself as an outfielder.

 

In the real world individual players have weaknesses and a coach earns their bread by structuring the team/tactics to play up strengths and compensate for deficiencies. No/very few teams in history could field a midfield with three 10/10 players.

Liverpool's two best seasons in recent history have had Henderson playing a box to box role with a creative passer in the DM position (13-14 Gerrard, 18-19 Fabinho). Winks and Henderson in the same midfield has to be something worth trying.

 

1. Being poor on the ball and lacking ALL of the traits I mentioned are pretty undermining "weaknesses" to say the least for a midfielder playing in a team which is aspiring to win tournaments. I fully understand players have their weaknesses but it's one thing to have a weakness or two, it's a whole different conundrum to basically lack every trait required for the role that's required of your position in a top team.

2. I'm not asking for a 10/10 midfield, just a competent and functional one that can hold their own against top sides. To do this, they will need to be comfortable doing at least some of the duties I mention above. I am of the opinion that Winks would currently do a better job of this than Henderson.

3. As I and others have said, Liverpool are successful and a top side in spite of Henderson, not because of him. Due to their quality in other key areas of the pitch, such as the centre halves and forwards, they are able to mitigate his lack of ability.

 

Point 1 = a team can't aspire to win trophies with a player like Henderson

Point 3 = a team can aspire to win trophies with a player like Henderson by mitigating his limitations (AKA what I said)

Cool.

 

What's sad is that even Boothroyd is more progressive with his midfield personnel choices than Southgate is. I wouldn't be surprised if last season's U21 midfield of Foden/Choudhury/Maddison couldn't dominate possession against Southgate's Barkley/Rice/Henderson.

 

We really miss rlc as a cm

I wouldn’t begrudge a pivot with him and winks with a more advanced cm

shame we don’t produce any deep lying cms who can dictate tempo

willock is a good prospect and Gomez but neither play that role

 

Point 3= those limitations are mitigated mainly by Van Dijk providing such a solid base at the back that Liverpool concede hardly any goals and thus almost don't need to control games, score 2 or 3 goals and outplay the opposition every week to get results. Particularly this season, where if you've actually watched Liverpool you'll note they've been far from fluid and have produced some poor performances (Sheff Utd, Leicester, Chelsea) but got out of jail mainly because of the fact they concede few goals meaning they rarely need to score more than 2 to win. We don't have a Van Dijk style player to provide this foundation and thus there is a greater onus on us to control possession and dictate the tempo of games in order to compensate for our poor centre halves.

In short, I am saying that England are not Liverpool and can't replicate their system due to differences in the quality of personnel in key areas. Also, pressing isn't the way forward in international football anyway due to
a) the fact that the top sides are much more comfortable on the ball and playing out from the back than your average pl side
b) the fact tournaments come at the end of a 50-60 game season and players just don't have the same energy reserves
c) games are often played in scorching summer temperatures

But hey ho don't actually bother reading between the lines and thinking about my points, just take them in black and white instead.

 

Is Sanneh even better than Ashby-Hammond?

 

Hard to isolate just their kicking.

Sanneh likes his highlights and unique plays.

 

Surely it should have been either 'my inference' or 'the implication'.

Anyway, whatever.

 

Talk in the papers that Southgate might return to a back three. Really exasperating when it’s not the system that’s the problem.

1) Bring in Chilwell and TAA
2) Play Gomez instead of Keane
3) Swap out Rice for Winks

 

Oh great, so Sterling will be played out of position and take away our most dangerous options playing out wide. Next he will be bringing back Ashley Young as a wing back!
Like TB says, it’s not the system but Southgates choice of personal that’s the problem! It’s going to be painful if he reverts back to three at the back.

 

Not a good look

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...-squad-and-being-spotted-at-leicester-casino/

 

Neil Ashton is such a massive prick though

 

Ffs Gareth is really showing how clueless he is now. Unfortunately he is unsackable due to reaching the WC semi final. Going back to a back 3 is disastrous and does not suit our players at all... Jesus Christ it’s tough listening to him speak sometimes

 

In hindsight I think us getting to the semi finals of the last world cup was the worst thing that could have happened us in regards to developing as a team . It papered over the cracks in our obvious deficiencies such as a non existant midfield and suspect defence . It also more importantly hid the deficiencies of Southgate's management .

The fact of the matter is it was a very poor world cup . None of the big guns showed up apart from France . And we had the easiest route to the semi final . I mean Sweden who we beat in the quarter final were a championship level team .
Croatia Modric apart were no more than a decent premier league side and they played us off the park .

Unfortunately since our success in the world cup .The media have had a love in southgate and seem to think he is a progressive manager who can makes us a force in football again .

Where is the truth is that southgate is a pr man who doesn't really inderstand the game . What is that Bill Shankly said football is a simple game made complicated by idiots who don't understand the game. Well southgate is that idiot .

Southgate claims that he wants to play possession football like Barcelona , but yet he plays two donkeys in midfield like Henderson and Rice in midfield and then scratches his head when his team isn't able to create anything .

He then says stupid things in press like we can't be expected to compete against the best unless we find another gazza.

What message does that send out to the midfielders he has at his disposal such as madiison , winks , grealish, etc. In otherwards I have not going to play you in midfield because you can't do what gazza .

Southgate needs to realise that isn't a player like gazza in world football, there isn't even a paul schloles .

Winks is probably the best we have as far as midfielders go and in an era where there is a clear lack of controlling midfielders outside of de bruyne and veratti. Winks is probably one of the better one's.

As far as flair players go grealish and madisson are as good as anyone in the premier league . I think those two are as creative as any player in the premier league not named de bruyne .

Aswell as that why not at the very least called foden up to the squad . I really hope this kid leaves man city because he is been messed about by Guardiola . The way I see he is a better player than anyone in in the man city team at the moment apart from de bryune . Why Guardiola is playing that donkey gundogan and silva who is finished ahead of him I don't understand .

I really hope he leaves city for the sake of his career and our national team . Mark my words this kid is really special . I genuinely believe foden can go on to become the greatest player we have produced since Bobby Charlton . He might even win us a world cup like Sir Bobby.

 

This would be a monumental mistake. England's best performance last year was the home game against Croatia, they actually controlled the midfield that day. The 3-5-2 was fraught with problems against better sides. And England's best position is their wide options. England's hopes rest on getting the best out of Sterling, Kane, Sancho/Rashford.

Going 3 at the back is just going to exacerbate England's issues passing the ball out from defence as ended up happening against better teams who pressed the wing backs back leaving England with a back 5 and zero width.

Plus, before England go castrating the attack and Sterling in particulaly, maybe sort out the defensive personnel before deciding they need extra help....The fact is that 3 of yesterdays back 4 should not be starting in England's best defence, even of the options in the squad, so all the talk of defensive weakness is immediately questionable when the team is limiting itself like this. Keane has never looked good enough, Rose not for a few years and was frankly a disgrace against the Czech's, Trippier offers less than Walker and Arnold in a back four.

There's nothing inherently suspicious about him being in the casino, the barrier for removing ill players from training is pretty low, you don't want even a cold spreading through the team.

 

So Southgate really thinks it’s the system and not the players? Sigh ...