England Senior Team General Discussion Thread

That's actually the most shocking thing for me... the way their midfield simply passed around us with our guys never getting close enough to make a tackle.

 

I don’t think switching to a back three is the answer.

Dropping Keane and breaking up the Rice/Henderson combination is the main issue for me.

 

He was OK. Drifted out of the game a bit on occasion but made an impact at other times.

We looked better when Barkley came on because of his ability to drive the ball forward on his own but, tbh, that was partly because the midfield created exactly nothing for the guys in front and wide to work with.

 

The solutions are staring Southgate in the face. A calm and well rounded defender; Gomez, a player in the middle who can transition play; Winks and a creative player; Maddison/RLC.

Ruben is injured but the other three can’t get a look in.

 

I couldn't help noticing that both Mount and Sancho looked below par and, as you suggest, that's probably not a coincidence.

Winks should probably have played but, having said that, he was part of sperz game against Bayern recently where he was made to look a bit useless... and I say that generally as a fan of the guy.

 

I'm not opposed to Southgate - he's done a lot right - but tonight was a bit of a shitshow.

I am concerned that he persists with both Rice and Henderson in midfield. How many times do they have to show their limitations before he'll accept that picking them both will never lead to a balanced and functioning midfield? All well and good to acknowledge that Henderson plays well for Liverpool, but he has a limited role for Liverpool that matches his skill-set. He's not required to dictate the tempo or to be particular creative. Similarly, it's fine to pick Rice if you just want a very good destroyer, but he's not the best on the ball, so you need to combine him with more sophisticated passers and make sure they're playing close enough by for him to hand off possession. Playing both looks doomed to failure no matter who's tasked with completing the trio.

What concerns me is that we're wasting time on questions that we pretty much know the answers to, when there are plenty of questions that we still need to resolve. Even if Winks plays the next game and justifies our hopes for him - which, let's be honest, he might not - we'll still need a back-up "passer" in case he's unavailable, and it isn't immediately obvious who that'll be. At some point, we'll need to try out some of our less obvious options, but we can't do that while we're stuck in this fruitless loop of "ok, not Dier and Henderson, but how about three or four games of Henderson and Rice?".

He needs to get on with it, starting on Monday.

 

I don't expect much of a change on Monday. He'll want to get the win and confirm qualification. I expect it'll be Barkley, Rice and Henderson in midfield.

 

I think all three central midfielders were diabolical, Mount included. Nobody showed for the ball when the defenders tried to bring it out— there were so static That basically meant no spark from that area, and the front three continuously feeding off scraps for most of the night. The other area from which chances could come, the flanks, was equally as bad. Each time Rose got the ball, his body shape was so poor you just knew he’d pass it back or lose it.

The only player who I thought had a decent game, although art from Sterling, was Kane who did try to make things happen a time or two but that’s just being the best of a bad lot.

All in all, a poor match.

 

Liverpool play a 4-3-3 which is the same as England have been playing recently. In a 4-3-3 the 6, which is Rice in this recent setup, is required to be a play maker from the back. Henderson has been asked to do exactly the same job as he does for Liverpool.

In a 4-2-3-1 the 10 is the playmaker which was Mount, he didn't get the support from the double pivot last night but was poor himself.

I agree that Rice isn't good enough on the ball to be a top level 6 so it would be worth giving Winks a run, although its questionable if he's good enough on the defensive side for a 4-3-3 either.

I don't think that Mount is the player many people seem to think he is, if people are expecting a departure from the technically limited end product focused midfielder England tend to produce then I think they'll be disappointed. He works hard but if he isn't scoring or assisting then you rarely notice him and he isn't technically gifted with the ball.

I think the 4-3-3 is the formation to persist with because the only area of the pitch where we are outstanding is up top. This system serves the front 3. I think the only questions are is if you swap Winks for Rice and if RLC should replace Barkley when he comes back.

I think the reality is that our midfield and defence is far too questionable for us to be anything other than dark horses in a major tournament.

 

If we have to chose between one of Rice and Henderson you have to go with Rice imo,as others have mentioned he's more disciplined and won't be caught ahead of the ball as much which is more important in international football.
Henderson is great for pressing teams but we don't have the time/knowledge to coach a good press,on top of that he doesn't stay compact when pressed himself which leaves gaps.
Rice,Winks + a ball carrier/dribbler would be a better balance.
We don't need to play a #10 if Kane is playing as he drops so deep anyways

 

I personally think it’s a bit harsh to judge Mount on that performance last night if I’m honest, sure he wasn’t great but let’s not forget he’s still only 20 years old so there’s plenty of time to to improve tactically and he will learn plus like a few others have said, having two midfielders like Rice & Henderson in their specific roles was already on a hiding to nothing imo and not to mention the other out of form players and there’s quite a few tbh which is a bit of a concern.

 

I'm not judging him on last night. I'm judging him on his time at Vitesse, Derby and Chelsea. I watched a lot of him at Derby last year and have seen most of his games with Chelsea. I think he'll be a useful player but not a great one. I don't think he's the kind of step forward for England that a lot of people seem to think he will be. The only way I see him becoming a top player is if he starts scoring lots of goals. As a player, he works hard, he is good at set-pieces and has a nose for goal. He's a pretty functional player. He's not a complete, controlling or dominating midfielder.

I think Tomori should come into defence over Gomez personally. Gomez isn't playing football at the moment and Tomori is good on the ball.

 

Would be an incredibly bad signal to the rest of the players, meaning Henderson and Rice are untouchable regardless of their performances.

 

If Southgate truly believes Henderson is his main man in midfield for the future then we may as well give up now. Whilst Rice lacks the composure, poise and technique that a Busquets has or even a Tonali if you're comparing him to young players, I don't believe these attributes are as crucial to his role as a defensive midfielder. There have been many teams who have been successful in employing players there who aren't the most gifted on the ball. I can think of hardly any teams in international football however, who have been successful in having such a limited technician in the number 8 role. Some stats are useless, but a 67% pass completion is quite simply unacceptable and even on a bad day, you'd never ever ever see the likes of Modric, Kroos, Xavi, Iniesta, D Silva, Fabregas, Thiago, Verratti etc post that. Unfortunately it is a stark illustration of just how limited Henderson is and how much of a misfit he is within the blueprint required to win major tournaments and compete against top teams.

I'd therefor like to see a Rice-Winks-Barkley midfield on Monday. Let Rice focus on his limited skill set of shielding the defence and giving it to the players ahead of him. Unfortunately Henderson's seniority and experience means he's probably undroppable in Southgate's eyes.

 

As bad as that performance was maybe it will give them a kick up the arse that i think they need, P.SI know Southgate has his faults, but this is worst bunch of center halves that i have ever seen be available to an England manager and i have been watching football since 1986.

 

I can’t recall the last time we outplayed anyone .. being a lover of nice football ..

Results don’t bother me too much

 

The Irish conspirasists believe Maddison has pulled out of the England squad to play for Ireland

 

Not really. Maguire stones Gomez and tomori are all good defenders. Keane is shite though. Tomori and Gomez have the potential to be top defenders

 

That explains why he's constantly tweeting about England. Can we not waste time on this rubbish?

 

There are many ways to play 4-3-3. For instance, there's the old (and perhaps slightly clichéd) model of destroyer-passer-creator, which fits Rice but not Henderson. I just can't see a way of playing both.

 

Lol, mate don’t get sucked into what they say. They’re just shit stiring, there’s zero chance Maddison has all of a sudden decided he’s Irish.

 

Southgate coming out with his usual "we have got a long way to go" speech.
We were making progress , but he keeps taking us backwards by binning successful systems.

 

Anyone using Liverpool as an example that Henderson can be an effective pillar in a successful team is forgetting one very important point. Liverpool are successful because of Van Dijk, there's a reason they won nothing before he came, they were conceding too many goals because they gave the ball away too much and their back four back then wasn't good enough to deal with being under pressure. This is funnily enough the situation we find ourselves in now, a midfield that gives the ball away too much and thus puts too much pressure on a mediocre defence, resulting in too many goals being conceded.