Nations League A, Camp 1, Cuba/Canada, Oct. 11/15

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But ... there’s more competition in Europe.

    Can’t believe you didn’t think of that.
     
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  2. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    adams wasnt "sold", he was promoted.
     
  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC

    I don’t think I’m missing this point at all as the vast majority of my posts address this very issue wrt Berhalter and his predecessor Arena: there’s a built in bias towards MLS players and it’s hurting the USMNT.

    Next, it’s mind bogglingly hard to read through your posts for interesting nuggets as they ramble on for paragraphs. You’d be a very strong poster if you could tighten your posts as I think many of your points are different from the usual and are well worth considering.
     
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  4. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Oh, I was simply talking in the Summer. RBL wanted him in the Summer window, when he was 18. MLS didn't want to sell and NYRB didn't want to sell then. I was mostly responding to the idea RBL didn't want him at 18, they wanted more MLS minutes for him. They did want him.

    $3M as a figure is complicated by the large sell on clause. I think they get 25-33% of the next transfer. That could be another $12-$20MM if you look at what good young Bundesliga DMs go for.
     
  5. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Impossible! Everyone know that there is no promotion or relegation in US Sports! :whistling::sneaky:
     
  6. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    You responded to a post saying that you complain too much about MLS academies. The response, in my view, seems inappropriate.
     
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  7. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    What I say is that it is usually best to go to the people that are willing to pay you well.
     
  8. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gregg isn't the right coach. His quote about Trapp is scary.
     
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  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    source please?
     
  10. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #635 juvechelsea, Oct 10, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
    i think you're conflating two different things which create somewhat similar outcomes. i think we are veteran biased. the kids allowed in right now are already well established consensus choices. quasi-veterans themselves. if the metric is playing time then it will tend to favor MLS because those in the pool who do play domestically, play a lot. give or take trapp, who i think hides behind the inertia of being pro veteran.

    i don't think it's we're pro MLS, i think it's that many of the abroad players are in more complicated club situations, particularly the young ones. berhalter then chooses to simplify this job of comparing players and leagues, which we have every day, by using club minutes as his ruler. that has the perverse result of favoring mediocre players getting regular time here over ones at more ambitious places serving as subs or in age group ball.

    the comparison to me would be with someone like JK who was willing to call pulisic morris green when they were basically age group or college players, based on his own horse sense. if you notice, 2 of those 3 are out of country. by shifting more to eye ball tests, or basic talent, or even things like goals per 90, you could uncover players -- primarily abroad -- with more potential than their club is exploiting.

    if there is a MLS vs abroad issue, i feel like it's that Berhalter may be avoiding young talent abroad to evade the accusation that we reflexively favor foreign players. "see, i make these foreign kids prove themselves first, no special treatment." give or take dest of course. problem being, that is fighting the last war. i don't think the current leadership of the team cares, it is young and in europe. i think pulisic in handing sargent the ball was saying he wants to trust the new generation coming up. the coach is responding to a nonexistent problem by slow-walking the next set of players.

    it's fairly absurd, of course. it's a strategy that almost tries to avoid finding the next pulisic that most teams are eager to tap. we will wait until he fully manifests himself in first team club, which may be years. but we won't make the MLS grinders feel bad by bringing up some european wunderkind who hasn't really made his first team yet.
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I give you significant credit for consistency.

    Many posters here say that "league play doesn't matter" but what they really mean is that MLS is better than the consensus and can be comparable to all but the top of the major leagues. However, once presented with players in leagues lower than MLS, they are the first to scoff at the comparison to MLS and point out gleefully that it's a shitty level and/or its against non-adults and that reserve and youth players league play sucks: in these instances, league play absolutely matters. This is hypocritical bullshit.

    I think you believe that there isn't much difference between the minor and all but the elite majors (and I strongly disagree) but you also have been firm in consistently advocating that lower leagues/teams are viable as well. The same posters who agree with your first point wrt MLS and the majors are the same posters who attack you for giving the same shot to those in lesser leagues. It's astounding to me.

    Credit where credit due (even though i think you're dead wrong on the majors vs. minors).
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i just explained why. there is a steffen/dempsey/adams template where one stays here, becomes a NT regular who can get a work permit, and a MLS all star with a club resume. you go slightly older and get bought as an adult contributor as opposed to a kid with a youth NT CV ticketed to the age group team eg Weah Soto.

    you might get called first and have a higher initial transfer value as a PSG youth. but if PSG doesn't play you, the kids on teams who do play start to pass you by in terms of club accomplishments, NT calls, market value. because they have a veteran track record.

    i also think that MLS is a pretty darned good league and it's kind of laughable to suggest you can't step up your game here. until he has vela numbers, MLS all star, trophies in the cabinet, there are plenty of challenges here. now, it might be fair to argue at some point in the future a new challenge would be called for, but he has 2G 5A, it's not like it's child's play here for him yet. that argument is waaaaaaaaaaaay overstated. you're just airing bias out acting like even average MLS midfielders are above this place. they're not.....or does average mean nothing anymore. long as he has average numbers he belongs here same as anyone else.
     
  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I wouldn't include Adams as he went to a sister program where the style and familiarity was the same and he was was 19.

    Teams now want their prospects as young as possible. Who was the last mid 20s transfer from MLS to a major league team that has done well?

    - Almiron - looking bad
    - Yedlin moved at 21 - took a sidetrip to the minors
    - Miazga moved at 20/21 and also took an "extended" sidetrip to the minors

    recent success stories

    - Davies, 18 years old
    - Adams, 19 years old, same system

    what field players am i missing? i'm excluding goalie as you may have a point there with GKs
     
  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    wrong again

    every single keeper on the roster this time has played adult MLS here

    every single back on the roster this time has played adult MLS here

    every mid but mckennie and pulisic played here as adults, and mckennie was an academy product

    every forward except boyd and sargent played here, and boyd is a switch

    i would even acknowledge that this might slightly change if the selection changed

    but it's a fool's errand to chase a team where no one has anything to do with the home league

    at a certain point parsing the league that fills your trough for whether the feed is good enough, is pointless, at least in terms of a "please go someplace else" argument

    one should probably instead be asking how to improve the feed passing through MLS' bag

    i also think your argument doesn't work because of the top four players

    pulisic mckennie adams steffen

    you have one guy who started here
    three who played here
    and two who played youth ball in the academies

    "doesn't reward?" rubbish.

    you could actually get me on board for MLS improvement, i think the roster rules hurt the NT by allowing majority foreign lineups. i think most teams' academies kind of suck.

    but it's absurd, almost like foreign country disinformation crazy, to be like, we're going to try and build a NT around avoiding the domestic league, when mexico is a safety risk, and we don't have other good regional options. we can go to europe, but europe is a lottery for kids. some prosper, and many get flushed. and they have no particular need to support us and our NT. the bundesliga is not going to release your players for olympic qualifying and camp cupcake and all the rest. they will do the bare minimum legally required. they will employ a handful of players they like. they are not going to replace MLS. senpai may not notice you no matter how many of these players show up trying to gain attention.

    what set the NT up to excel for a while was a domestic league supporting the domestic player. that is the difference between before 94 and since. if you want to return to the golden age of minor league salaries at home and hoping some abroad team signs you, have at it. i think anyone with a brain would get that a domestic league that pays players and keeps them in the game is a good foundation for a NT, and if they want it to be better, build from there. only an idiot or a zealot would be like tear it down and everyone flee.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i mean at what point do you miss that mls is here for americans, at least to some degree, and no other league is going to supply that?? germany is for germans. the uk puts the epl behind a pay wall of work permits. etc. they are not going to do our job for us. they may employ some of our best. but england isn't going to be a substitute MLS. their immigration laws are set up exactly opposite. we will lick the frosting of the few players you have meeting a high percent standard of NT caps. that won't even cover the whole NT but just a chunk of it.
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    also think some of you have not considered what happens to our internationals if UK does brexit in a way where a "continental" passport is no longer a ticket in to work, as it was with right to work in the EU. at which point you are either UK or not, or work permit or not. a second passport saying latvia, croatia, etc. will no longer count.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    people rant that some young MLS prospects dont play while some 28 yo journeyman does.

    Competition isnt the only reason people want our players going abroad. Coaching, higher technical and tactical expectations, better reserve set ups, etc make it a much conducive to deceloping.

    Haji Wright is nowhere? On what basis do you think Toye is ahead of him?
     
  18. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
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  19. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    Yes, if only there was some sort of magic box on which one could watch some of the 100+ games of Tyler's young MLS/Bundesliga/YNT/MNT career to develop an opinion ... or imagine if one could listen to the near-unanimous opinion of everyone other than oneself.
     
  20. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no clue what im stepping in on, but scoring more goals in half an mls season than wright has in the last three years? that would be my reason to think that, anyways
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I responded to someone saying even if barca wants a player MLS cant sell until 18. I listed players that had to until they were 18 to move and pointed Pomykal, like most MLS players get limited minutes prior to turning 18.

    Some people make a big deal about this but there are many options to 17 yo kids that want to go abroad.
     
  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The Tyler Adams situation is starting to worry me. I hope he doesn't return a different player.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    what options do you suggest?
     
  24. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    This is the MLS sunshine pumper trademark. Create a fake dialogue that nobody actually has, then pretend that everyone is saying it. Instead of posting your fan fiction why don’t you just quote people? i know why.

    This is not to be confused with the other trademark, where someone criticizes MLS in some sort of way and they are told “CALM DOWN, STOP FREAKING OUT, EVERYONE JUST RELAX” even though it’s just a difference of opinion.

    It’s all an effort to make one side of the argument seem hysterical and unreasonable, it’s the definition of arguing in bad faith. It’s all so predictable.
     
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  25. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Non-MLS DAs or USL. Not ideal, but not sure it is worse than signing with MLS for 4+ years.
     
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