Nations League A, Camp 1, Cuba/Canada, Oct. 11/15

1) How often do decent Yank players in terrible teams get rescued by much better teams?

2) How often Yanks who move to Europe making peanuts to start eventually make it to the big stage making more money than what MLS would have paid?

3) If you're offered NOW to choose between a 400k/salary per year for several years, or moving to another place where you get 90k/year at first but if things turn nicely you may make much, much more, would you take the chance or go with the sure thing? Wouldn't that depend a lot on whether you trust the people making the offer, and trust yourself to be good enough?

4) Who knows a player limitations better, us or the player himself? Isn't it more logical for a young man who knows he's good but not excellent to stay with the sure thing?

5) Why should our young guys trust those offers from Europe, when for each player with a more-or-less successful career, making good money, we have 20 players who were never given much of a chance and return to make miserly salaries, or even stop playing completely?

Right now the US system is still in the stage of "no one respects it" --more so after Couva, and what happened with Jozy and now Pulisic is not exactly helping.

So far we're seen as novices, foreigners with little clout, they're like Jeremy & Jemima Potts and Europe is like the Child Catcher. Promises of a lot of candy more often than not have ended badly.

 

what you're missing is that we would trend heavily towards that number you want simply by changing the coach and getting the selection sorted.

i also think you're neglecting the steffen/donovan issue where many of our players try your way, come back, and then actually bounce back and forth the rest of their careers. it's not our fault they are biased and dunderheaded sometimes. or conversely that it's easier to pick out some stud mid career pro as opposed to figure out which prospect will have "it."

so, if adams is one side of the line now, honestly, who cares?? what does it prove??

i also think you're making some arbitrary numerical standard as opposed to looking at career trajectories and choices accumulating. i expect in about 5 years as this young team flourishes, and perhaps our coaching changes, europe will be in love. it will be many of the same people we already have. i think berhalter's playing time obsession favoring MLS veterans means something, and would correct the other way with a competent coach. that would make the team better since it would select better people.

but the idea of forcing people to be ambitious can lead to bobby wood, which actually doesn't help anyone. but let's be clear he's "right side of the line," eh??? there is no inherent value in being one side or the other. there might be different value in selecting different people. and in 5 years the same set of people might stack up different sides of the line because europe changes its mind over time. but does it mean what you suggest, or is it them catching up to what we already have???

 

What are you talking about? They are going in huge numbers like never seen.

CP didnt have decent conditions? What about mckennie? You just make no sense.

 

not good enough. you are making a highly particular response to a universal question. if big club/europe is some universal panacea, it shouldn't matter a ton whether you are a god or a mortal, it should make them all flourish. my point is it rewards some and punishes others, some of whose careers never recover. ok, that's not a universal upside, and it may in fact tend to favor the people we already thought were pretty good eg McKennie Steffen Pulisic Adams.

so are we saying that the best 4 players on this team currently are also the ones who benefitted most so far from signing those places?? shock and dismay.

this is where i get into my point, it's cherry picking. the players they actually keep are going to correlate to the best starters on the NT. that is how they set up the game. if you turn out zelalem you are loaned out, given a second chance, and eventually sold or released. being a solid pro does not suffice, at least not for our people. now for them, it might meet some roster quota they need. or they're not costing them work permits or a precious big salary. but for us, CP keeps showing, it's blackjack or pretty much nothing. and it's not that he plays that bad, makes catastrophic errors.

and then people happen by and are like oh wow see how the world cup and these clubs correlate. yeah, because not even christian freaking pulisic is guaranteed any time. given that premise what team in our situation would put our fate in their hands??

again, so much of this feels like the arrogance of a team that acts like it's already qualified and dominant as opposed to is realistic about its pool and their levels. this is the sort of crap brazil might worry about. we just need better players and ideally them getting minutes. precisely how would be a snob hangup at the moment.

 

there is also a massive disparity, underlined by how berhalter does his selection processes, between who we have where, and who we then roster. the distinction being when one takes seriously whether all these expeditionary players see the field comparable to MLS veterans.

net result, i think there are a list of talented people from there who can't make the team. in short, we are doing what you want and then cutting a lot of the people who try it. i personally would change that, but as a practical matter do you not see the downside of your influx??

like i pointed out, at back, the biggest winners of the moment have the most prosaic resumes. but they play every week, for the team that signed them, and in a league that takes defense seriously. Yedlin CCV EPB Miazga Brooks etc. on paper should be the lineup. is that how reality works?? no. it's the ones with stable club situations who are competent at their jobs who start now.

and the irony is when they get their crap together west ham comes knocking. which is where i say the cause-effect is all wrong. the ones europe really wants are the ones proving themselves regularly.

 

In retrospect, Dusseldorf would have also paid 8 million for Steffen. Not a crazy price at all. Miazga is also finally looking like a 5 million dollar defender.

 

You do realize most of those guys did most of their development in MLS. Right?

 

to expand on "the ones europe really wants are the ones proving themselves regularly" -- i don't know if it actually matters if you are in their system, on loan, or in MLS right now. i think the pretense is being over there puts you under eyes and eventually you find a place to start. the history is actually some players with experience in MLS fly right past the people who have been in Germany 2 years, when they transfer over. because you are a 23 year old veteran they scouted on purpose and not just 19 year old fodder for their age group teams.

in other words, is there any proof that signing direct to dortmund or manU at 18 makes you come out better than someone who transfers to Leipzig at 20, with MLS all star resume and NT starts in hand.

push it out one step further, who gets the bigger fees or contracts??

my theory would be the experienced transfers (even a little) have better career and financial outcomes. they are picked more individual for proof of play, and less as among U19 fodder to see which ones stick.

now one could argue there are training benefits in playing abroad at 18 and getting coached up by PSG or Leverkusen for a period before settling someplace else. i might trust that education in soccer more than Dynamo Academy. but only some would be wanted, and i have a feeling stats would show you're shopping for a new job in your early 20s, and more so than somebody experienced from MLS signed there as a veteran transfer. in other words, if PSG wants you, let them coach you up, but be real about your chances, and have your plan B ready.

 

for example, anecdotally, weah started with the better team, PSG. his one transfer fee to lille is higher. however, in a sense tyler adams, who started in MLS, and had a lower fee to leipzig, is crossing over. he is more of a club regular. he is more of a NT regular. and his paper value now exceeds weah.

it's kind of like the friend who gets a job out of HS vs the ones who wait til college is over. the initial financial comparison flatters a different person than the longer term analysis. in plain english, the first one who can afford buying rounds is the guy who winds up making less over time.

now, i think weah is hard done by, and very talented, and maybe it balances back different, but particularly for some coach who should instead be an accountant, which one looks better to a green lampshade looking at playing time and player value etc. at least now, not the one who signed the biggest deal, was worth the biggest first fee, and was supposed to be the bigger prospect.

and people talk smack in favor of the big club like blah blah gets to train with neymar but one paying close attention might see that is also the potential stumbling block as well. adams' hurdle to starting is different than weah's, and adams might have even had more control over his destiny in the sense he could pick his intra-club competition, and choose a team under the same umbrella trying similar tactics, that didn't just sign a bunch of people but wanted him specifically. weah had to move to get the same position with a club adams walked right into.

 

It isnt a panacea.

MLS doesnt reward the USMNT with high level players. They are basicallynroater filler that I doubt we need by the end if this cycle.

The arrogance of team that thinks they have already qualified was Arena. Berhalter has gone down the same path so far. Those of us clamoring for players to push themselves know we need to get much better.

 

Even if I did, what does it have to do with this discussion?

 

He was a kid on the cusp of a potential transfer to a big 4 side, or at the very least, a legit side in a top 5 or 6 league, instead he chose to take the sure thing at home and not bet on himself. It was a HUGE mistake, and while it's way too early to suggest such a thing for me, I just worry about a players mentality, if he's that young, coming off a fantastic U20 WC, in position to pick from a lot of quality teams in Europe likely to bid for his services, and instead he chooses the easy money in the small pond league? It's just weak. Eventually we'll want players to do this, when we have a legit world class league where they are playing against the worlds best game in and game out (I think that league could be here someday, but it's decades away). We do not have that league right now. Sure it's miles better than where it was when I was regularly paying attention ('96-'06ish), but it's not an elite league by any stretch, period.

I believe in the kid, but I think he threw away a golden opportunity to make it into the big time and build a fantastic career abroad and I have NO idea why he made this decision. It makes zero sense to me.

 

let’s hope it’s just SOP for a developing team to set up a near term sale.

 

Paxton Pomykal has 2 goals and 2 assists FOR HIS CAREER in first team soccer.
Let's all settle down. He has a lot to prove before Euro teams put in a contract offer. First things first...………….he has to figure out how to stay healthy and contribute on a weekly basis. Apparently he's got some persistent hip flexor problem right now. That followed months of hamstring problems. Last year he had an ankle problem that kept him out early in the season, and then he had knee surgery in the middle of the season.

As I said in another thread, FCD had two more options years on his contract anyway. All that's really happened here is that Pax multiplied his paycheck by 6. And he can still be transferred in any window if the price is right.

Just a reminder that the FCD general manager used to have the same role with Gremio and Santos in Brazil. He knows how this game is played. He's the guy who was responsible for the Neymar transfer (amongst a host of others). What is he doing? Setting his club up for a maximum payday, which is his job.

 

There are a million stories in the Big Soccer world. I'm not going to try to walk in someone else's shoes. I do think you are somewhat overstating his potential (in the cutthroat world of Euro soccer).

 

I thought you were on record that he would get a lot of interest in the summer/winter 19/20 window. Are you now down because of his injury?

 

Nobody suggested he leave for free. It is possible MLS no longer thinks they can enforce their club only options. In which case, he might have been able to leave. But 5 years is excessive, if I'm Pomykal, and I want to play in Europe. Completely possible Pax has no such ambition.

 

As usual a strawman.

Do you believe that MLS roster restrictions lead to the same level of competition as found in Europe? You would be the only one. Listen to guys like Feilhaber, Holden, Dempsey, who will tell you it is an order of magnitude different.

Pomykal will never have serious competition for his spot. He might play himself to the bench, but nobody will force the coach to drop him.

He could get better; but he will not be pushed to get better.

 

I hope you are right. Not just for Pomykal, but it would be a welcome change at FCD. What you take as a probable motivation, I just am wait and see. I've never seen FCD extend an American and then sell him to Europe.

 

It's not a strawman. I've seen plenty of the same posters both laud when a player takes on European competition and rant at MLS when a young American can't beat out an MLS player. It's a contradiction, and it's a funny one.

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As to the rest, yes, there are leagues in Europe with more competition than MLS (and there are leagues with less), but that's not my point. My point is the hypocrisy -- if an Andrew Carleton can't even get minutes -- isn't that GOOD for him? Competition, right? If he can't earn time it's on him. But not to the Eurosnob crew.

Pomykal will get competition in MLS. Maybe competing for a spot, or maybe him competing to get a best XI spot. It depends how good he gets. He's certainly not so good that MLS is beneath him right now.

Is the competition in, let's say, the Bundesliga better? Of course. But competition only has value in making you better if it's a certain amount better than you. It may actually be better for Pomykal to become a star here then move over. After all, there's a lot more to development than competition. Even if that's only what Eurosnobs will pay attention to.

Playing time means something. Coaching staff attention means something. A team's tolerance for mistakes means something. These all have value in development. Not to mention a player's talent and personal determination.

Is it better for Pomykal to be fighting to be a great MLS player while his team both trains him and gives him the opportunity to be the center of the Dallas team? Or is it better to be fighting tougher competition in Europe ... but for a reduced role, on a team that isn't going to build around his strengths, on a team that may give up on him after a single mistake?

These things are portrayed as simple and one note: competition. But that's an absurdly naive and reductive view of development.

Here's another example: Tyler Adams didn't go to Europe at 18. Even more relevantly, Red Bull -- who know something about development -- didn't want him to go directly to Europe. Why not? There was better competition there!

Except ... they kept him in the US, to go from passable to a star, where he would play every game, and then brought him over. They saw value in him playing in MLS at that development stage, and were rewarded. He stepped into Leipzig without a hitch.

I have no issue with the idea that the European experience is both more cutthroat, and in the upper group of leagues, more competitive.

Where i have an issue is with the naive idea that competition is the only factor in development, and that more competition is always better. A five year old playing with professionals won't get better. Different development paths can be successful and different paths may be needed for more people.

Haji Wright was a U17 star and went to Europe and he's nowhere right now. Mason Toye went to freaking college and looks ahead of Wright at the moment. Both are '98s.

In a world where the NCAA is still producing players that beat out folks that went to Europe, you'd think people would be less definitive in their opinions of development paths.

But nope, your story is "EUROPE ALWAYS BETTER BECAUSE COMPETITION". My point isn't that Europe is somehow worse. It's that development is the result of a lot of factors; there's a lot of ways and places to develop; and that going to Europe as soon as possible isn't always the best plan.

If Paxton Pomykal were at the level of Tyler Adams was when he left, I'd feel differently. But he's not there yet.

 

Ouch. That is a lot of problems for a young kid. Surgery is never a good thing.

Yeah, potential must be taken with a grain of salt. Kid still needs to prove it before my panties get in a bunch for signing an MLS contract

 

Red Bull absolutely wanted Adam's at 18. MLS wouldn't sell.

You can't pick one guy that went to Europe and base anything off of it. Why don't you substitute Sargent for Wright? Is Toye ahead of him?

Toye was in college for a few months then turned pro. If the NCAA is developing players better than ever, why did he leave so soon? Toye himself would tell you that you need to turn pro as soon as possible to reach your absolute ceiling.

Adams is going to turn out to be an exception to many rules. Let's not compare every player to him and think they have to be as good as he was to make it. Pomykal was supposed to be the next one to be developed by MLS and sold on to bigger things. But, not going to happen anytime soon.

 

He signed with RB NY, and he wanted to stay and finish out the season. He's said as much. Also, don't you think MLS HQ would have demanded a larger transfer fee if they didn't want to sell??? Adams was sold for $3M......less than Miazga.

 

Cite a source please. Adams has actually credited his not moving to Europe immediately as a positive in his development.

I'm not surprised you're missing my point.

I can pick one guy who went to Europe and base something off of it. Because my point isn't that MLS is a better avenue than going to Europe.

My point is that there's isn't one absolute right path. That Pomykal signing with Dallas has positives for his development and isn't an umitigated disaster. Hell, it doesn't even limit him going to Europe.

I doubt he would since he LITERALLY did not turn pro as soon as possible.

Clint Dempsey didn't, either.

You act like decisions are final instead of steps along a process. You act like there is only one answer and it's definitive.

Your argument -- that competition is the only factor, that turning pro and doing so in Europe is the best path for everyone and always, has been proven wrong over and over again.

And yet you persist with it. It's almost comical at some point. Try getting some nuance to your thinking.

 

And before you respond with some ridiculous assumption that I think it is always better to go to college or go to MLS...

My point of view is that none of us actually know whether it would be better for Pomykal to go to Europe or stay in MLS, not even Paxton. Even if Pomykal had real offers from strong developmental clubs in Europe, we don't know. Paxton doesn't know.

European clubs -- especially the right ones -- offer some great advantages. Better competition, great coaching, a more intense professional atmosphere, European visibility, a new perspective. I'm sure there's more.

Staying in MLS has benefits for Paxton's development as well. I've gone into them before, but a higher likelihood of playing time, a coaching staff and ownership group invested in him, a higher chance of being put into a key offensive role, and so on. Plus, the benefits of being at home, which is good for some people and perhaps too comfortable for others.

These things are complex. And we've seen college work, and MLS work, and Europe work. At the end of the day, yes, you want your very best to test themselves against the very best. But Paxton ain't there yet -- how he gets there, or rather, the way most likely to get him there, isn't as simple or clear as you'd like to make it out.