One very last remark: Italy was the 9th league of Europe in 1978-79: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/crank1979.html Now, this can be compensated by performances in an international setting but I'm not immediately convinced there and he only made his national team debut in december 1982. For Scirea and Krol you can clearly point at the international performances around that time (as well as against the top of the league and Napoli was championship contender until Krol got injured in 1983). It was not until 1984 that the Italian league moved ahead of the Dutch league, and until 1984 the Belgian league was ahead as well. Another excellent example of the double handicap we see again and again. The (cultural) handicaps and time lag at the time itself, then another handicap and downgrade years later. Take out this 1978-79 season and Gullit is in your own analysis a top level player before (1985) and after (1996) Baresi. With also a higher peak in your own list, namely a number one ranking. That was it for today!
What about this Top Fifty? 1. Cruyff 2. Platini 3. Puskás 4. Cristiano Ronaldo 5. Zidane 6. Van Basten 7. Eusébio 8. G. Müller 9. B. Charlton 10. Best 11. Matthäus 12. Yashin 13. F. Baresi 14. Maldini 15. Meazza 16. Xavi 17. Sindelar 18. Baggio 19. Moore 20. Suárez 21. Buffon 22. Gullit 23. Kopa 24. Matthews 25. Henry 26. Rivera 27. Sárosi 28. Facchetti 29. Rummenigge 30. Iniesta 31. Kocsis 32. Rijkaard 33. G. Nordahl 34. Bergkamp 35. Scirea 36. Krol 37. M. Laudrup 38. Dalglish 39. F. Walter 40. Zamora 41. V. Mazzola 42. Figo 43. Neeskens 44. Hidegkuti 45. Bozsik 46. Zoff 47. Gento 48. Morton 49. Stoichkov 50. Coluna
Thanks for your reply I think as always these things are hard to judge (i.e. now everyone is parroting Oblak, Ter Stegen and Allison are the best but how do we know for sure? In 2018 Courtois was the flavor of the year) and bottom-up statistics as saves have limited application. Top-down statistics are more useful (like this and this from a piece on Neuer). Van Beveren, who was voted MVP by the american press in 1981 (succeeding JC14 for 1979 and 1980), also said that to US reporters in 1980: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler There are a number of ways to take the measure of a goalkeeper, but listing his statistics isn't one of them. Last season, for instance, van Beveren finished with the NASL's second-best goals-against average (1.29), led the league in shutouts with nine, and finished second in saves with 195. He never denied that he'd had a good year, but he did repeatedly insist that his goals-against average wasn't a true indication of how well he had played. "When they go only by averages, it makes me sad," van Beveren said. "But what can you do about it? I tell people in this country that averages have nothing to do with how well a goalie is playing, and they look at me like I'm crazy." While a goalkeeper's stats certainly aren't definitive proof of his skill, the numbers, taken together, can be revealing. That van Beveren's goals-against average, including a dreadful 7-1 loss last Saturday, had risen to 2.19, for instance, and that he led the NASL in saves, with 146, indicate, among other things, that he has been kept busier this season by the Strikers' inexperienced back line. Despite Fort Lauderdale's often porous defense, he has had three shutouts and is 11-4 in games decided by a single goal. Rather than citing statistics, however, it would be simpler in van Beveren's case to say that he has attained a level of the game at which his grasp has somehow exceeded his reach, instead of the other way around. After years as the top goalie in Holland, van Beveren is now one of the dominant players in the American game. Many of the NASL's top forwards have learned—as Krupa did—that when the Flying Dutchman is in goal, they can no longer shoot into any old port in a storm. When van Beveren's goals-against average dropped him to ninth in the league rankings last month, the stat watchers began to mumble that perhaps at 34 he was slipping, that his reflexes were no longer what they once had been. "It amuses me to hear soccer aficionados around the league talk about van Beveren in the same breath as other goalies," says Ray Hudson, Fort Lauderdale's veteran English midfielder. "He's on a totally different planet. Forget about the statistics. The real sages around this league know that van Beveren is as far removed from the rest as Péle was when he played in the NASL. The man's phenomenal." "You can't even compare him with the other keepers in this league," says Midfielder Vladislav Bogicevic of the Cosmos. "He's head and shoulders above everybody else." https://www.si.com/vault/1982/07/26/624661/the-flying-dutchman It is also hard to look past the supposed body language of a player or goalkeeper. People said Van der Sar can't stop a well-taken penalty, but later in England he was praised a penalty stopper. People said he wasn't a organizer or 'leader', but later even the very most critical (and 'fact-free') pieces mentioned his organisational skills as "exemplary". The story also is he was for "two minutes" at Manchester United before he started challenging Roy Keane and his tirades. Like you I have my reservations about Casillas (who was at #2 a few votes ahead for the 1987 - 2012 period) but I'm a real 'believer' in Petr Cech his abilities, preservation and career accomplishments with four European finals, five FA Cup finals etcetera. For the post-1994 era there aren't that many goalkeepers who played a part in four european finals. You also mention well he had basically two peaks many years apart, a peak around 1994-1998 and then 2005-2011. He retired close to the age of 41 while many still saw him as (one of) the top keeper in Europe. With plenty of facts (with Joe Hart the best shot stopper at a top team in 2010-11) in support. He's the only keeper to win the Champions Cup with two different teams, and played a record five finals (making 29 saves in the three he lost). On top of this, he also won a UEFA Cup and Intertoto Cup, played three semi finals with the national team (gaining tournament clean sheet records and overall records in the process, while having far fewer caps than some other keepers). On those two peaks - Ajax: In the calendar year 1995 he went 846 minutes without conceding a goal. At the time this was the 2nd best in history behind 1082 minutes of Hein Stuy. Important here is Rijkaard missed some of those games (which meant F. de Boer moved to central defense), and he was for foreigners their best defender. Ajax also went on to set an unbeaten record in Europe, and unbeaten in away matches. Again there was no full-stability with Rijkaard retiring and F. de Boer suspended for the semi finals. Second peak - Manchester United: Here of course the 1311 minutes record without conceding a goal was set. While it's true he had a superb defense ahead of him, he was nevertheless still busier than e.g. Buffon during his run. Also here we see Evra and Rio Ferdinand missed each 7-9 games during this run, and with no set right-back either (the teenager Rafael or 33-34 years old Neville alternating). Remarkably, Van der Sar was an integral part of the team that beat those Ajax records for unbeaten European Cup games and unbeaten away games. Can this be 'luck'? Sure, luck plays a part, but that it happened years apart for two different teams in different countries diminishes the factor luck. On longevity: He is the oldest goalkeeper to win the European Cup. The oldest to win the Premier League. The oldest player to make an assist there. He was also the first keeper at a major tournament (euro 1996) to make an assist since Kavazashvili in 1966 (the deputy of Yashin). He is behind Buffon the goalkeeper with the most ESM selections (three behind). This could have been more if also 1993-1995 is included (the same ESM group voted him keeper of the year in 1995) and without his Fulham years. His Champions League record is significantly better as the other top class keepers of the last 25 years. Better goals conceded record, better clean sheets record. Unlike a number of defensive legends like a Baresi or Maldini, he has also no games where he's losing with 5-0, 6-0 or 7-0. Buffon has also his games where he concedes 5 goals - for far better teams overall. IFFHS listed him among the ~10 best goalkeepers in the world in 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 2009, 2010, 2011. That is very remarkable longevity, and that despite a small 'time lag'. He was arguably also 'great' in some years where he isn't listed, for example 2001, while it is always doubted whether a polished sweeper keeper can also do it for the 'bad' teams: "Fulham declared their intentions to the rest of the Premiership when they signed Edwin van der Sar from Juventus for 7 million in August 2001 [back then a hefty fee]. And the big Dutchman did not disappoint as he scooped Opta's Fulham player of the season award. The goalkeeper turned down a return to his first club Ajax in order to try his luck in the English Premiership and was a solid last line of defence for Jean Tigana's team. Van der Sar kept 15 clean sheets through-out the course of the 2001-02 season and only Jerzy Dudek and Nigel Martyn [for clearly better teams] boasted more shutouts than the Fulham shot-stopper. Furthermore he used his 6' 5" height to full advantage by claiming 82 high balls in his penalty area." + in 1997 he was dutch goalkeeper of the year and nominated for footballer of the year. Conclusion: All of those things taken together (for multiple different teams) makes me to place him #2 behind Buffon personally. He was at Juventus also not as bad as is made out; of all goalkeepers with at least 40 Serie A games he has still the highest clean sheet percentage. Also, when Juventus signed Thuram, Buffon, Nedved and the whole lot in the summer of 2001, they didn't do significantly better from a defensive perspective (goals conceded, points won). It's no surprise he scores very well at things like GoalImpact and the FinkTank. (this took me some days since you wrote your post on Friday, and I haven't been fully complete still). Cheers!
Watch what you're saying Puck nowhere do I glorify the Wehrmacht or U-Boats or whatever. And when will you stop your hissy fits just because someone reps a post you don't like? Your touchiness is mental, really, everyone here knows it. You go around this board spouting racist vitriol towards posters whose nationality you don't like. And your glorification and overprotection of Dutch players is really something else.
I don't say that light-minded and it fits in a web of patterns. There are three posts of you in the 'Famous person is alive!' and 'R.I.P' thread, both are celebration threads and you know it because you've repped various posts there. Two of your posts are about footballers, and your very first contribution in the thread is about a U-Boat captain for the Third Reich, on the 9th page of the thread. Not one about resistance fighters, or well, about movie stars, cultural icons and musicians (what that sub-forum 'Movies, TV and Music' is about...). Similar type of thing applies to the three footballers in 1943 in a Wehmracht uniform, and that particular thread. Delete and edit what you want but that's the context (with Rick Joshua it is better visible) and to not ruin this thread I'll not argue back and forth about it (now seriously!). People will never see me alluding certain countries or 'races' are dumb by nature. However, when places as 'Forosperu.net' are passed off as "educated" I tell them how it is. IQ is tied to development, not race. I bet I don't have to explain those distinctions to you. That said, when I was annoyed I did say in the past certain places will remain a "s***hole" for the foreseeable future - I'm glad the election of a Bolsonaro has proven me right in this theory and I can't resist 'Schadenfreude' here (not because of this forum - for clarity, for other reasons). So I admit there are small fibers of racism in me, like pretty much every person I'd say. Now back on subject; I protect them - and the role of the culture in football development - when it is necessary and I protect them against effective people like you, and a Peru FC who mows the numbers down from four-to-six to one-or-two in more than one strong year. Of course you see that different, as someone who has literally claimed the liberal media has a fascination for 'our' football and gives them a bump up (whether the football scene is actually known for their broad-mindedness is a subject in itself). You've said it on PM years ago, too. Unlike a Zidane or Maradona, or George Best our top guys don't have a big number of advocates on their behalf (not here, in general). When Gullit is placed in a top 20 I also said a handful times it is too high and I won't protect him vis-a-vis Matthaus or Laudrup in terms of generational standing. I think Baresi is done a service by focusing on his best five years (or elite years), same for Modric. Baresi played in a league ranked 9th - 12th in his first five years and didn't have international performances to show for (with the benefit of hindsight here - first got BdO votes in 1988). Sadly, you are so effective 'on the internet' that e.g. a reasonably smart person as Ariaga cites and adopts your work integrally and places immediately four German goalkeepers among the best 16 within a half decade, without contemplating whether they had any international resonance (or performances) outside the borders.
This is what the dictionary says about the term "to worship": "show reverence and adoration for (a deity)." Clearly I am not worshiping a U-boat commander if I point out the astonishing fact that he's still alive at the age of 103 (now 105). I am also not worshiping German WWII U-boats in general by doing that. Fritz Walter, Andreas Kupfer (forgot the third player) are all-time great in pre-War football, showing a picture of them together in uniforms in a thread for historical football pics (if I remember correctly) is also not the same as "worshipping the Wehrmacht". Of course you will never excuse for that gross insult, you don't have that in you. Seriously, do you really think I would delete or edit any of my posts because of the nonsense you are posting here? Keep me out of your childish and ridiculous conspiracy theories. But then again, if I am part of your laughable conspiracy theories it shows just what a load of bullshit they are.
I'm not sure of your criteria about order, but it seems to me that here you may not be applying a perspective that is felt when a ranking is so general, that 26 positions (which are the ones that separate Henry and Bergkamp in my list) represent in itself a fairly short distance. If you would not reverse it I can hardly understand what the big difference you might have would be as a problem.
Indeed, I could not add much more to what was mentioned by Tom because, to be honest, I practically relied on his assessment (his inclusions in his tops 23, his summaries on the Mitropa Cup and a few other threads). I have looked for extra information about Pesek and I have not found something that could make me suppose some exaggeration in this regard, rather information that seems to reinforce his idea: his leading figure of a very famous "Iron Sparta", how important was the role of centre-half in his reality (seen as the very possible star of a team), Czechoslovakian football position, his good international impact and his consistency. This would be my first analysis, which is Tom's copy because I have not made personal modifications about him: Karel Pesek 1920 Top 23, 2nd (podium) (25 years old) 1921 Top 23, 1st (podium) (26 years old) 1922 Top 23 (27 years old) 1923 Top 23 (28 years old) 1925 Top 23 (29 years old) 1925-26 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (30 years old) 1929-30 Honorable Mention (34 years old) And considering that his 1910's season are not counted.
I think some of these player vs player comparisons sum up the quandary re: how to go about attempting to make such lists. It could be that in a straight choice the majority of Czechoslovakians of the time would always pick Bican over Pesek (that is hard to be certain about, but let's suppose that the list Peterhrt posted did reflect that reality accurately - as comme said it is hard to know the background of the voters even if they are informed to some degree and that is perhaps the same with the Hungarian version I've posted before that appeared in Hungarian FourFourTwo I think it seemed, and IIRC it was indicated that it was Hungarian football historians or historical figures perhaps voting - I'm not sure exactly). But when Tom and Peru look at each era in isloation it has occured that Pesek's case is more persuasive to them than Bican's, factoring in team success at club level, and perhaps keeping in mind wanting to include a decent number of deeper players in the list, not stack it with mainly forward players. And I stated myself earlier that I'd see Henry vs Bergkamp as very close whichever way it is looked at (while understanding not everyone has to agree), but when I did make an era-based attempt at numbering 100 players, following Tom's lead and template, it was purely because I slotted Henry into the modern era (which is a marginal call in itself) that he ended higher than Bergkamp by approaching the same distance as Peru had it. I think of course it is true that small gaps become bigger when all players in history are factored in (or all Europeans as with this thread), but I'd not have perceived that I'd have such a gap between them normally, and it almost comes down more to rating Maldini over Nesta or Figo over Robben, or going with Baggio and Zidane higher than Bergkamp, but not with Xavi and/or Iniesta above Henry (because by definition I was trying to spread each era's players fairly evenly through the list; this is notwithstanding that Bergkamp and Henry were team-mates and their peaks were not very many years apart either of course).
Stop it now. You've got no basis for these suggestions and they have no place in this forum and no relevance to the topic at hand.
Yes I will stop it, but you're evidently wrong there is no basis (the familiar and southern german Rick Joshua another such dude on the internet/BS with complete dedicated websites to these things, but that as an aside). I stop but don't apologise. He has also redacted your works (not my imagination), another nice example of effectiveness and encirclement to close off.
This was Franco Baresi's first real season, Milan won the league and he was voted Player of the Year by Serie A Captains/Coaches. As you can see looking at the other names on the list Serie A's quality was in a bit of a slump, but still really impressive for a 19 y.o. defender.
In an article from early 40s Corriere dello Sport which ranks the best players ever Kada is mentioned as the #1 centre half (tied #2 are Bernardini & Sarosi) So looks like he was well know internationally back then.
The second table is for Young Player of the Year I guess? (I did a translation to 'ranking of young people', but I think it must mean the players and not the voters!). Did you find similar for other years? Not that this thread would necessarily be appropriate for it I suppose - maybe Vegan's Serie A ratings one would be though for example.
I'm curious about this one too now lol! Firstly whether Sarosi was also ranked as a forward, and secondly just who the other players were. You've done great these past months finding this kind of stuff in abundance anyway.
Here is the rest: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ol...-esp-1950s-1970s.2038892/page-9#post-37962180 Sadly they didn't finish all positions (or they did and I can't find it) and there is no forward ranking.
They didn't mention a single British player, so yes. Found this short article about British players though: http://dlib.coninet.it/bookreader.php?&c=1&f=8651&p=1 James, Hapgood, Matthews
Definitely Cristiano Ronaldo. He is the greatest world footballer in football history. He has the best NT career ever: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cr7-best-nt-career-ever.2086155/ He has the best performance in the toughest competition ever, Champions league: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/li...ns-league-career.2085719/page-2#post-36979273 He has the most assists as well as goals: 39 assists, 127 goals. About 70% of his goals were scored in the knockout stages, compared to the around 40% of the second top scorer. Ronaldo is the greatest european footballer as well as greatest ever.
I really shouldn't 'bite' at this but just on one point, how can he have the greatest national team career ever without a single great game in the World Cup (I really think the Spain game last time is a stretch, if considering De Gea's error for example)? The Champions League seems to be less tough than the World Cup for the players that play for the best clubs as well no?
The guy is an obvious troll account. Having said that, you can argue both ways. Club football unleashes the full potential of top players. Top players generally end up on top teams with good teammates. While NT can hinder a player's potential depending on his nationality / strength of generation. Having said that, it's interesting that Ronaldo, in his prime, doesn't even have a great WC performance even against average teams. His best WC performances was probably in 2006 before his prime.
Yes I was aware of that (saw a different source though - this is Stampa?) but a problem is Italy was the ~10th best league at the time (dropping down to 12th gradually) by coefficients. Players like Scirea can still show themselves in international games of course (at hindsight), showing they're good there. Scirea won the UEFA cup in 1977 - Italy had a bad reputation in the 70s thanks to journalists like Glanville so maybe therefore he didn't register in the international awards/teams in '77. Milan had the best offense (Baresi 0 goals however) and 2nd best defense of the country in 1978-79. Noteworthy though Rivera doesn't rank too well in his last season. Some sort of lifetime achievement recognition didn't happen, but was ofc already sufficiently recognized at times.
It's from GdS. Yeah, Milan has been struggling for a while and I don't think Rivera had a noteworthy season in the late 70s.