indirect scenario

Discussion in 'Referee' started by socal lurker, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    IFAB didn't delete Law 18 ...
     
  2. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually they said it never existed at all.
     
  3. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    Of course, since I've been reading this thread with some amusement, I had an IFK for impeding, (or since it was NFHS, obstruction). Of course they kicked it 40 or so yards, DIRECTLY into the goal. The 'scoring' team goes into dogpile celebration mode while I'm blowing my whistle and looking up at my still raised arm. As they're all setting up for the goal kick, one of the girls, very politely asks me if I can tell them it's an IFK next time. :eek::cool::confused: I told her that's why I had my arm up like that. All in all it was a valuable learning experience for them.;)
     
  4. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    How many players do you guess know that?
    I am thinking about 20 or 30%.

    Most think it means, "Wait".
     
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  5. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    I know at least two on that team didn't know it. :cautious:
     
  6. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    No, no, it means "offsides", right?
     
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  7. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmmm sounds like my post earlier in this thread...

    indirect scenario
     
  8. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    No, no, it means "although we are subbing you are free to go ahead with your restart, the rest of us will catch up with you after the subs are done."
     
  9. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    I thought it meant "I know the answer! Call on me, teacher!"
     
  10. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Paging Arnold Horshack
     
  11. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Our adult league (7v7) has a local rule where every kick is indirect with one exception (PK), which is only given for DOGSO in the area. Every single restart the players look at me and ask if its direct or indirect. Or the ever popular version "Is it two touch?"
     
  12. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    The cattle are dying?
     
  13. camconcay

    camconcay Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Feb 17, 2011
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the discussion boils down to was the signal good enough? It appears everyone agrees the signal was not good enough because I think I read every one agrees the referee messed up.

    The LOTG clearly state what the signal is, so those arguing that the R in this scenario signaled are correct, the R did signal but the R signaled incorrectly. At what point does that matter? To me it must matter here as it is clearly stated that a signal must be given and goes on to specifically detail what that signal is. In Law 5 it only states "supervises and/or indicates the restart of play". I have seen many throw ins taken with no signal from a referee, doesn't seem to matter. I've seen a foul, whistle, and kick with no arm raised in any direction and no one said a word as it is obvious to everyone what happened and the correct restart occurred thus the restart was supervised but not indicated.

    There is no remedy for referee errors as the LOTG do not account for referee errors after a restart (if you count changing your mind or correcting a call before a restart an "error")

    - except -

    in the case of an indirect free kick.

    Since the LOTG say what to do if the referee fails to signal in my opinion the assumption is the referee signals correctly (based on the rest of the LOTG that assumes the referee performs their duties correctly). In the original scenario the referee did not signal correctly per this passage from the LOTG and in the drawings that show the hand raised thus no or incorrect signal and the kick should have been retaken.

    In the second case the ball does not go directly into the goal so this passage does not apply by the letter. However, the referee is instructed to raise their hand above the head and maintain it until the kick is taken and the ball touches another player or goes out of play therefore the hand must be in the air before the kick is taken and if not the signal is incorrect and an incorrect signal is in my opinion not valid.

    I believe this is spelled out specifically to prevent miscommunication from verbal "indirect" or anything outside what this passage specifically spells out. What if the referee verbally told the kicker (as stated) but the kicker is deaf and just nods yes every time anyone says anything to them, or doesn't speak English and nods yes or (imagine) a player not listening at all but wanting to get the kick going and the defense surely needs to know so they do NOT touch a ball going into the goal so if it's loud or commotion setting the wall - well - that's why I believe it's spelled out and if the signal is not correct then we retake and if the hand is not above the head from before the kick to when another player touches it or it goes out of play.

    This passage replaces the references to ITOOTR and "discretion of the referee" and gives leeway to uphold the spirit of the game - WITHIN the framework of the LOTG. So within the framework I believe that if the ball is not kicked directly into the goal then the spirit of the law in this passage takes over and if the referee's hand position affected play then it's a retake, not a goal kick, not a goal, not a corner, not continuing play but the best attempt to restore the conditions to as close as possible to before the mistake was made.

    I do not believe there is any way to ever know what affect the R hand position had on play unless the hand is in the correct position for the correct amount of time then being 100% correct by the LOTG alleviates the referee from trying to decide that as stated by multiple posters in this thread - don't mess up.
     
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  14. Spencedawgmillionaire

    Mar 2, 2017
    Belleville, ILLLLLLLLINOIZE
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    So yesterday I had the pleasure of awarding an IDK in a JV match right outside the PA.
    I spotted the ball as I called over the player guilty of obstruction because he was getting a little "energetic" about it. So spent a bit of time explaining his mistake and to chill out when defending.
    While giving this player the business, I completely shut my brain off and get into position and blow my whistle without indicating in any way that it was an IDFK. They scored directly, of course, and I disallow the goal.

    My partner (2 man crew) is a 26-year referee veteran. He explained to the coach on his side what happened. At 1/2 we talk about it, he's completely mystified as to the correct re-start on that, as is the CR for the VAR match. Coaches, nobody really knows what we're supposed to do on that. I tell them I think it probably should have been re-taken as it was my mistake, but cannot come to a consensus. Emails were sent for clarification.

    I found this thread, I knew I'd seen this somewhere. I guess I forgot. Glad it was JV, glad the scoring team won handily. Embarrassing, rough afternoon.
     
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  15. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Huh. So how did you restart?

     
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  16. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Under the current laws of the game, you retake the kick if the referee fails to raise his hand to signal and IFK and the team scores directly. I believe it is the same in NFHS now as well.
     
  17. Spencedawgmillionaire

    Mar 2, 2017
    Belleville, ILLLLLLLLINOIZE
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Goal kick.

    5.3.2 is from the NFHS rule book? I don't have mine handy.

    YAY! I did the right thing after doing the wrong thing! Wait, or did I?
     
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  18. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Whoops, that's from the 2018-19 book. Don't know if it changed for 2019-20.

    OK, just checked the new book and it's the same. You did good! (Kinda ...)
     
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  19. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    Ooooo, had that question and debate come up last week!

    Had a HS Coach claim there were both like USSF/IFAB (re-take IFK) and a fellow referee that said both were like NFHS (goal kick)... neither one believed me when I said the Rules and the Laws were actually opposite of each other on that situation :rolleyes:.
     
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  20. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I went and looked this up after I posted today. I really though that NFHS had adopted the IFAB position on failing to signal for an IFK, but they haven't. Maybe it's NCAA soccer that did.
     
  21. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    Not sure how much is gospel (it has no IFK signal in NFHS wrong), but it's a great list I sometimes review when bouncing between NFHS and USSF youth... (Includes NCAA too)

    https://www.nfhs.org/media/1018270/2019-comparative-study-of-rules-and-laws.pdf
     
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  22. tomek75

    tomek75 Member+

    Aug 13, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NFHS released an app with the rules for all high school sports. Give it a shot, I use it quite a bit.
     
    Spencedawgmillionaire repped this.
  23. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    You can also get a Kindle version on Amazon, and a Kindle reader for your phone, and your computer, and ...
     

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