FourFourTwo 101 best footballers of the last 25 years

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, May 16, 2019.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Contuining the merged list with PDG


    Wingers:

    Figo
    Beckham
    Robben
    Giggs
    Ribery (borderline having his own grouping above Bale maybe....?)
    Bale


    Forwards:

    Messi
    Cristiano Ronaldo
    Ronaldinho
    Bergkamp
    Raul
    Hazard
    Del Piero
    Totti
    Rivaldo
    Neymar
    Baggio
    Salah
    Rooney
    Müller
    Zola
    Cantona
    Le Tissier
    Tevez
    Stoichkov


    Strikers:

    Ronaldo
    Henry
    Shevchenko
    Weah
    Batistuta
    Suker
    Ibrahimovic
    Van Nistelrooy
    Suarez
    Shearer
    Larsson
    Eto'o
    Lewandowski
    Villa
    Aguero
    Klinsmann
    Romario
    Owen
    Drogba
    Klose
    Torres
    Vieri
    Trezeguet
    Inzaghi
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think here you exaggerate the idea of consensus that exists and I also think you are exaggerating the degree to which I rate players below any consensus that might exist. If you go back to my 100 lists (which are about 10 years old) I think the Dutch had pretty fair representation. That's my perspective at least.

    My point about Wales was (largely) a joke on the fact that you are quick to call out supposed biases and conspiracies against Dutch players while yourself choosing to downgrade the players of my country.
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #228 carlito86, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
    Why is franck ribery underrated with prime stats like this
    b0g2BFN.jpg
    There is no way ,in fact absolutely no way Gareth bale of 2012/13 (and most likely giggs 93/94 and Beckham 98/99) came even remotely close to this level of all round play/involvement

    Franck ribery 2013 was no doubt (at least at league level)an all time great wing dribbler with a solid success rate (not in the category of hazard, figo and Messi 14/15 of 60%+ but great nonetheless)

    The astronomical amount of chances he created,20+ goals in all comps for a conventional wide man is pretty grand too

    I can't envisage anybody outside of figo in his la liga prime 99-01 and arjen robben of 2014 touching this

    There is also Cristiano who should be in two lists
    Both winger and forward

    A runner up in the 2007 ballon dor and widely considered by both the British and Italian press as the undisputed best player in the world (at least up until April 2007)
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2007/apr/11/newsstory.championsleague1


    Most of his prime was as a free role WF(2008-2014) but still this was stellar and more than worthy of inclusion
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What is the consensus on Giggs and Bale? 'Downgrade' supposes there is one, and I give consideration to peak (hence Ronaldo the clear #1 striker etc. because five years peak stands above 15 years).

    Giggs highest ever Ballon d'Or position for these 1994-and-beyond years is 14th in 2009, as a lifetime achievement. Beyond that it is 21th in 1999 (3 goals and 2 assists in the league..), 28th in 1997, and 30th in 2007.

    He was league player of the month twice (both in his last arguable world class season, 2006-07, aged 32-33), never in the ESM team of the season and 6 times selected in the ESM team of the month (Nedved, Beckham and Robben 14, Bale 10, Ribery 8 - 'Robbery' also having super strong competition here); and his national team goals + assists (incomplete?) came against teams of the Czechoslovakia caliber or worse.

    Although Giggs was three times in his career nominated for PFA player of the year (including 2007, which might have been arguable), he only won it as a recognition for his entire body of work and with other attackers in the league being regarded as off the boil.

    By the look of that, the BdO peak and ESM peak, Ribery with his unofficial Ballon d'Or (Bale 8th) might appear to be ahead, yet I think there are a few good reasons to do not see Ribery his merit, contribution and influence ahead. Because, well, there is not exclusively one country in the world against which 'conspiracies' exist and the odds are down. Is there a downgrade next to Giggs his contemporaries in the same way as MvB and JC14 are downgraded? Downgrade assumes there is some consensus or golden mean for this. Is the average consensus Giggs > Figo?
     
  5. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    The 'consensus' is simply the starting point of the thread, the original list from FourFourTwo. You have downgraded them and bumped up various Dutch players in your own lists.

    Anyway, it was supposed to be a joke but clearly not one that found the mark.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You commented yourself this benelux representation is too low and there is a British perspective in the list (more specifically a ManUnited perspective as others remarked, including commentary on Giggs his high position and 'Robbery' their low position). Furthermore, in the end I kept this jingoistic bumping up within bounds.

    VdS is the #4 goalkeeper in the original list, but I moved Casillas down to the bottom and Schmeichel having most of his peak earlier. RvN is the #10 striker in the original list but I have him #9. DB10 is #3 in the original list and I kept him there. Robben goes up two/three places by virtue of Giggs and Bale going down (Nedved was only one place ahead in the original). Davids was #2 behind Busquets and he stays there. The main bump is Seedorf who was #7 in the original (behind Scholes, Vieira, Keane) while I have him #3 or #4. That is all. I didn't go fully mental with it.

    This is also a result of having the likes of Romario, Sammer, Hagi, Stoichkov and Cantona in there while there are not really Benelux cases like that (yes, Bergkamp perhaps but still Premier League player of the month as late as 2002, 2004). That increases the odds of not falling down or going up because Schmeichel et al. (aged 31 in 1994) having not the best cards.

    Will respond to @carlito86 in the coming days (not today) on why I placed Giggs ahead of Ribery.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #232 carlito86, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
    I get the whole Rooney not being your cup of tea/looks like shrek/English media darling etc but Muhammad salah in front of him!!!

    He is the all time top scorer for a historic club (Manchester United) with the second most assists in premier league history.

    Scored against Barcelona 2011 in the champions league final( the greatest club side since rinus michels ajax).

    A 20 year old Wayne Rooney was widely considered to be superior (or at least on par)with prime Thierry Henry in 2005/06.
    check his dbs calcio ratings

    In 2009/10 up until his injury he was widely considered to be inferior to no one except Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma...is-prime-feature-about-wayne-rooney-in-200910


    Muhammed salah had one standout campaign.
    Everything else he showed before and after up until recently (12~ shots with no goal vs Manchester City in the community shield)isn't near prime rooneys class.


    Seriously dude this is just too much.
    Like I'm pretty sure you could make a solid case for giggs vs ribery... but salah vs Rooney
    Not a snowflakes chance in hell.
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Suarez got a big downgrade here - for me he'd be 3rd or 4th (like on your initial list) at worst.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #234 PuckVanHeel, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    That I try to see through this doesn't mean I apply tokenism.

    By this token there are also good reasons to dislike Salah, a product of antisemitic islamism, who has made antisemitic gestures in the past (at the same time, Europe should first look closer to home, then, Southern Italy and Southern Germany for a start). Egypt is a country of 95 million citizens, with many other countries sharing a similar culture.

    Salah is quite popular in Indonesia...


    Let's run down the criteria:

    - The skill level, range and effective application of the skill by the player

    Rooney has overall an advantage here, but that shinned bicycle kick is emblematic for his technical package. From his volleys, the slow floating passes to his 'croquetas' in midfield; it is close but not the real thing.

    - Did the player make his team better or give it a spark?

    As elaborated before, this is evidently the case for Salah. Whether it was Basel (EL semi finalist, scoring against Chelsea and Tottenham), Fiorentina, Roma or Liverpool he gave them something extra. In the Serie A his win percentage is 65% while without him (33 missed games) it is 48%. In the Premier League for Chelsea and Liverpool this effect does not exist (very slightly better win percentage without him), but it is clear he has given Liverpool something extra at the Champions League level. Therefore his UCL win percentage drops considerably in the games he has missed so far... (excluding his Basel spell here!) Rooney was rarely the pivotal player of his team and the numbers in the CL and Premier League back that up (for ManUnited and Everton). I think Salah has had a greater impact overall. Logically he is one of the two best paid players by Liverpool.

    - Five years peak goes above 15 years longevity

    Salah has just turned 27 in the summer and is not done yet.

    Salah scored 42 goals in a season. The only other Premier League player to do the same was a striker (Van Nistelrooij) (edit: both scored 44 goals). This while Liverpool scored 'only' 84 goals in the league, which was worse than Manchester United during Rooney's best scoring seasons (86, 89 goals).

    Salah has already twice as many World Cup goals as Rooney, and is only 10 non-penalty goals behind in the Champions League while playing half the amount of games (40 vs 85 for Rooney).

    Salah in 2017-18 was five times in the ESM team of the month, while Rooney has 'only' four in his best outing. Salah his 6th place in the BdO (in a World Cup year) is even better than Rooney his career best 8th place.

    Again: the sport is not only about goals, but Salah made Roma evidently better (record points haul!) when Salah himself was not only about goals.

    - Record in big games for club and country

    Rooney has of course many more games, and there can be a regression to the mean, but compare for yourself:

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mohamed-salah/bilanz/spieler/148455

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/wayne-rooney/bilanz/spieler/3332

    It is surely possible a regression to the mean will take place, but the flipside is here Salah already doing his damage against Chelsea for Basel or one of the strongest Juventus teams in this decade when he was at Fiorentina...

    - Performance in multiple settings and circumstances

    More or less already covered above, including Salah already having twice as many World Cup goals, and while Egypt is no San Marino, it is no England either. A few more things can be added; in the main this aspect is already covered.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #235 PuckVanHeel, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    Yes I agree. In the original FourFourTwo list he was also lower (further lowered if Henry and/or Raul are placed as a striker) but he went up almost automatically because of Batistuta and Romario going down. There are no Uruguayan cases of that Hagi/Cantona/Tissier mold.

    His compatriot Godin also should be far higher up imho based on ~5 years. One of the few defenders who could actually defend, and although the Atletico tactics and midfield protection help him, he could keep prime CR7 and LM10 quiet. Though with the ball not the most skilled, 'pes stats' rightly rates his teamwork high for a defender. I realize he was a bench player when he won the 2011 Copa America, and #2 is not certain, but would have him top five.

    edit: very obvious cases as the two Ronaldos aside (or JC14, MvB in the past...) it is natural there are differences in perception on where they stand next to contemporaries. I'm sure some of my calls are on the positive/jingoistic end, while on the other hand I saw you saying Robben might even be ahead of Figo for example.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Further backed up by something like this:

     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #237 carlito86, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    So is Adolf Hitler (not drawing a analogy between the two even though both share anti semitic tendencies -to varying degrees)
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vi...hitler-was-no-guerrilla-leader-or-grunge-hero
    Egypt is many things but known for assimilating different cultures and being civilised isn't one of them
    https://m.spiegel.de/international/...subjected-to-sexual-harassment-a-1198328.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...stians-egypt-unprecedented-persecution-report
    This is all very well but what happened to the five year peak beats 15 year longevity

    Where is the 5 year peak of mohammed Salah?

    Can you refer me to a source that ranked him pre mid 2017 as even a top 20 performer in Europe

    Rooney's highest ballon dor ranking was actually 5th not 8th so I hope this was just a mistake on your part

    Real thing or not the complete offensive skill set of Wayne Rooney is tier(s) ahead of mohammed Salah


    In salah We are talking about the epitome of a system player who would look like a fish out of water in other set ups (or a confused gazelle running down the flank as he was in Italy)
    Salah literally cannot take FKs
    Is shockingly bad in the air
    His crossing game is mediocre at best

    Read his PES stats and his abilities are the worst for any recognised "elite" player
    I don't make this up

    Both Rooney' prime seasons for Manchester United were higher rated than salah 17/18
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/3859/History/Wayne-Rooney
    So was his prime ballon dor ranking

    Throw in his longevity as a top 15 performer in the world between 05-11 and I don't see this particularly close


    On a separate note I noticed how you ranked Dennis Bergkamp as a AM for his post 94 period (I agree or at least a SS similar to Rivaldo)

    Why do your lists reflect the variation of roles he played but completely fail to recognise the development of CR starting out as a elite offensive lateral
    From 2005-2009 superior to contenders arjen robben and franck
    ribery
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...istiano-ronaldo-manchester-united-george-best
    https://www.xtratime.org/forum/506-...ecade-2000s-dream-teams-greatest-players.html
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He was world class in 2018-19 and even better in 2017-18.

    Before that he evidently (for me) had an impact on Fiorentina, finishing 4th, and an impact on AS Roma finishing 3rd and 2nd.

    AS Roma achieved a point record, Salah was club topscorer and player of the season, and contributed to the phasing out of club monument Totti.

    Again: he has already more World Cup goals and is closing in at the Champions League.


    It was a half-mistake.

    He was 5th in 2011 but that one was not only voted by the journalists. It had the same name ('Ballon d'Or') but it was effectively a different trophy with a different organizer. Among the journalists Rooney ranked one place lower, and it had a different voting method.

    Does this show though his peak was as high or higher as Salah? He was by WhoScored 17th in the league and 14th in the Champions League... For the national team he had one international goal against Switzerland, in a 3-1 win. This compares to Salah his 2017-18 season?


    I already made this point on ability twice.

    There are flaws in Salah's skillset, but note here 'pes stats' rating his technique with a 90, which is a few points higher than Rooney (who is 86-88).


    Rooney was though never rated as top of the league by WhoScored either. The likes of Van Persie, Suarez, Hazard, Mahrez, Aguero all were. Rooney didn't set the metric on fire.

    We know players can be excellent without having a high WhoScored/SofaScore rating. Some have (Van Dijk at Southampton) others do not (Modric).

    Salah was rated as #3 in the last two seasons (= a lot higher than Rooney in 2011). In the Serie A 11th, 25th and 39th. For me that is compensated by the top-down influence Salah has.

    No such strong bottom-up evidence exists for Rooney either (2nd link for 2004-05 - on par with prime Thierry Henry in 2005 you said?), nor is his top-down influence considerable.



    We will not agree on this, so let's move on to Ribery and Giggs... I already concede here I underestimated Giggs' number of set piece assists and overestimated his dribbling dominance (though he had 3.5 successful dribbles per 90 minutes in 2000-01 in the league and CL; it appears he never was the most prolific or accurate 'volume dribbler' of his league from 1998 on, since this data is known). I'll reply in the weekend.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Maybe because he went on a stat padding spree in the closing matches of the season (with a 4 goal haul vs Leicester if I recall correctly)

    Still though I think he must be the first English striker to score 40+ in a single season since Jimmy greaves (which is a great distinction no doubt)
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I didnt know you had issues with stat padding against inferior opponents, i thought you glorify players like that. It certainly is the stand out season of his.

    It should be checked, but if his win percantage in 30 games that he had played for Tottenham that season is drastically bigger than the win percantage of his team without him, its a non debate. Its by far the best Tottenham has achieved under Pochettino. 88 or something points.

    I dunno tho. I am just making suggestions.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #241 carlito86, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    You asked why it is underrated
    I answered by informing you the perception at that time was of Harry kane 16/17 being inflated by goals in inconsequential matches at the tail end of the campaign
    That's it

    Do I personally differentiate between useful and useless goals?
    No

    FYI every single post war historic goalscorer stat padded
    starting with puskas and ending with Cristiano Ronaldo (and yes even lio Messi)

    If Harry kane had recorded those stats let's say in 18/19 (with salah and mane on 22 goals)than the chances are he would've been even more highly acclaimed
    (Especially if he combined his league form with 6-10 CL goals we'd potentially be looking at a ballon dor contender)

    Unfortunately there were multiple players in 16/17 with great numbers so in a way he was overshadowed (lewandowski,Messi, Cristiano,suarez,cavani etc)
     
    Sexy Beast repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The problem is of course we don't have the same stats for Giggs in his prime, and this is for the 2013 calendar year as a whole.

    We do know Giggs had games where he completed all of his 7 dribbles and averaged 4.5 successful dribbles per 90 minutes in the league and Champions League in his prime (believe me, 2000-01 is right into his best years as a dribbler). Although, on closer inspection, it appears he never was the most prolific and/or accurate volume dribbler of his league from 1998 onward (since this is tracked). Other high volume dribblers completed more and/or reached a higher completion ratio. Giggs was also more dependent on set pieces than Ribery was for delivering assists.

    The thing is though detailed individual statistics (while football isn't a fully individual sport) is to me of secondary importance to the skill level and range of the players, and whether they helped to make their team win games. That can be by scoring goals but not necessarily; you can be an accurate shooter without being the main scorer and the more limited player (Andy Cole) scoring the goals.

    While jingoistic people overrate Giggs when they rank him as a top 75 all-time player and the 2nd/3rd best left winger in history, I place him ahead of Ribery mainly because of Champions League exploits (in big KO games and must win games) and Ribery not having a distinguished national team career either (not because of Ribery not winning with his team, but because of not performing and, like Giggs, quitting).

    Will go into Giggs vs Ribery in more detail later. The philanderer and family traitor pitted against the pedophile and journalist puncher ;).
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This is pretty dark puck

    I agree with the main and the tie breaker between ribery vs robben for me is also champions league football (KO rounds specifically)

    Giggs has tonnes of set piece assists(Beckham too)

    One player has been forgotten here and that is Angel di Maria 2014 commonly cited as a top 5 player in Europe in the run up to the 2014 world cup


    A higher peak than Gareth Bale no doubt about it
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #244 carlito86, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    2008/09
    the greatest European striker since Marco van Basten

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...009/sep/13/zlatan-ibrahimovic-inter-barcelona

    Fabio Capello, who helped him to two league titles at Juventus, told Italy's La Repubblica:
    "When Zlatan arrived in Italy he was a rough diamond. But now he is very complete, the best striker in the world and impossible to mark inside the penalty area. I know comparing Van Basten to Ibrahimovic is like comparing Picasso to Rothko, but I believe that because of his power and his technique Zlatan will become stronger than Marco.

    Zlatan needed to learn and mature, but he's an intelligent lad. He also has an incredible gift for maintaining his position, freeing himself from defenders and at the same time seeing a pass, a space or a chance to shoot. What Van Basten and Ibra have in common is their natural elegance. We're talking about giants who are like poetry in motion."
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Di Maria was a bit of a headless chicken at times but think I might agree with you. I don't think I would have him above Ribery but above Bale is certainly possible.

    Let's do the following as concise as possible, but because it is not an easy comparison I'll do it in two posts.

    Giggs vs Ribery

    - The skill level, range and effective application of the skill by the player

    I don't think there is much between them. Both were pretty well rounded wingers, well balanced in their technical and tactical capabilities. Maybe Ribery was more of a trickster and a better shooter, and Giggs better in his awareness, but in the main this is splitting hairs.

    - Five years peak goes above 15 years longevity

    This complicates things, but Giggs is actually a good example of why longevity ('hanging around') goes below a five or ten years peak contribution in my opinion.

    While the longevity is commendable next to the ones who implode early because of their own obvious mistakes, this also demands perspective. The veteran Maldini and Giggs in 2008 were one of the lowest paid members of their squad. That in itself is not conclusive, but for example in Cox's 'The Mixer' (written in chronological order) four of the five latest references on Giggs are about how he was exposed by opposing full-backs like Bosingwa or was overrun in midfield.

    I'd say 2006-07 was the last season where he, if fit, was a regular match winner and showed himself in the matches. He was top assister in the Champions League, had his only 'player of the month' designations here, last time in PFA team of the year (other than 2009 as a tribute), this was his last borderline elite level season (check the not-so-great profile against top teams in the league).

    For many his peak (if fit and healthy) started around 1993, when his agility was the highest, but that career best 17 goals (1993-94) falls outside the scope here. Others see his regular influence against the best of the league and international opposition taking off at a later date. The 2002 encyclopedia by Keir Radnedge sensibly notes: "He first demonstrated his international quality in United's 1996-97 Champions League campaign when he was inspirational in the 4-0 defeat of FC Porto in the quarter-finals." If you look at his game log, there is something to be said for that as well (the opponent he most often assisted against is ManCity btw... which was not a good opponent for most of his career).

    I can see the point of Ribery reaching greater heights, but when you take that 1996 to 2007 period, then in my perception Giggs his Champions League contribution is a bit better as what Ribery did. Ribery reached great heights (and influence) in the league (the 3rd league of Europe), not so much in the Champions League or for his national team.

    - Did the player make his team better or give it a spark?

    To be continued.....................................
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    - Did the player make his team better or give it a spark?

    This is not a straightforward comparison. I can understand the thought a fit Ribery reached sustained peaks and a consistency (for a winger!) that Giggs never reached. Giggs his exploits against Juventus (several times) left fans wondering why this wasn't seen more often.

    Ribery became a first team starter at a later age (21-22) and continued 'only' until he was 36 and 1 month old (so far), yet has more goals and assists than Giggs in his entire career. This while not taking as many set pieces.

    Ribery won 72.9% of his Bundesliga matches while without him (92 games) it is only 68.2% (Robben: 75.5% vs 69.7%). Ribery was clearly a marquee piece behind reaching the next level.

    Underlining the previous observation the Champions League wasn't quite his best territory is the win percentage increasing from 59.5% to 75.0% in the 36 missed games without him - though this size in difference is inflated, it supports the point Giggs (5 goals and 11 assists in the quarter finals and beyond) was a bit better, albeit inconsistent, here in must-win matches.

    Ribery his record against Dortmund since those became title challengers (2010 onward) of 3 goals and 6 assists in 21 games is also underwhelming next to a Lewandowski and Robben.

    For Giggs you can say Manchester United wasn't succesful before he became a starter and hasn't been since he left. Giggs has the highest win percentage of all 125 players to have played more than 300 games.

    From Duncan Alexander (OPTA): Best win percentages in PL history:
    >300 games: Ryan Giggs 64.4% (without: 64.8%)
    >200 games: Nemanja Vidic 70.6% (without: 64.1%)
    >100 games: Paulo Ferreira 72.3%
    >50 games: Arjen Robben 82.1% (without: 57.4%)


    Thus no surprise Giggs scores well in metrics as this, even though Manchester United could do perfectly well without him (a reason why he ranked so low in the BdO and ESM).

    - Record in big games for club and country

    I think Giggs has an edge in the Champions League (yes, Ribery an assist in the final but Giggs has two). Against the top sides of their own league there isn't a significant difference in Giggs favor (3 goals and 9 assists in 50 games against Arsenal for example) and neither stand out much for the national team if you consider Ribery played for the better side (Ribery definitely not as good as Robben here who has 7 open play goals and 5 narrow assists in 15 games against the elite national teams).

    - Performance in multiple settings and circumstances

    One could say here Ribery managed to stand out for two club sides (Marseille and Bayern) but Giggs had his contribution in a number of (vastly) different tactical set-ups and formations. He also played from the center (moving out wide at times) as early as 1997 against Juventus and Porto.


    When weighing all of this it made me place Giggs ahead, despite Ribery his clear advantage in accolades.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here a good discussion in the first 10 minutes or so:
    https://audioboom.com/posts/5959609-the-mixer-podcast-ep-5-wingers
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Jose Mourinho: "For me a number 10 does a lot of things, with the ball and without the ball. So for me a number 10 is a very special player in my team. With a system of two midfield players and one number 10, I demand a lot from a number 10. A number 10 for me is an eight-and-a-half when the team loses the ball, and the number 10 is a nine-and-a-half when the team has the ball. Who is my perfect number 10? Deco and Wesley Sneijder. Because they could defend, get in the box and finish goals. I like a number 10 to score goals. I like a number 10 to get in the box." :thumbsup: (similar comment by him in 2014)


    (31 goals, 0 penalties; Robben 29 assists btw)





     
    carlito86 repped this.
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #249 carlito86, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
    @PuckVanHeel

    The last one isn't correct in a 'absolute sense'
    Taking wide assists into account CR had 7 non penalty goals+ 2 assists in 5 CL starts in 2009/10
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...sdaten/spieler/8198/saison/2009/wettbewerb/WM
    4 MOTM awards and also the highest CL rating according to whoscored



    For an AM though having a direct hand in 9 CL goals in a single CL campaign is infringing elite territory no doubt
    Combined with his WC form sneijder shouldve been a ballon dor podium player in 2010

    Which puts gheorghe Hagis 88/89 EC into perspective @Perú FC
    6 goals+5 assists in 9 European cup matches(also 1 pre assist vs IFK goteborg)


    Ronaldinho couldnt do this in 05/06
    Zidane couldn't do this
    Neither Maradona,Totti, rui Costa,Micheal Laudrup,savecevic,iniesta,david Silva etc


    Only xavis 08/09 CL and possibly tadic 18/19 (which is becoming underrated already)
    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/02/18/the-resurgence-of-dusan-tadic-at-ajax/
    can compare from recent times
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Because penalties won are not counted as an assist by OPTA.

    This is not a criticism of Cristiano, as you know I think he's a genuine candidate for best european player ever.


    Yes, I don't think Hagi really qualifies for post-1994 very well but would have him among the 20 best 1990s players. Where exactly I don't know but he's up there imho.

    Hagi (like e.g. Sneijder) has an up and down career and was generally a man of moments rather than persistent influence, but does have a few seasons where he did things in Europe, for his national side and the league. That in three different decades. The 1988-89 European Cup campaign, leading them to the final, is a good example.

    Maradona with his individual no show in Europe (0 non-penalty goals + 3 open play assists in the 1989 UEFA Cup campaign...) and sub-par in the league, and poor in Copa America, gets often a bit of an easy ride for the 1989 year imho. Not saying he was bad but you get the point I think.


    That's true I think, especially when factoring in the knock-out stages and that those won the ties.

    Also in other seasons a few goals and assists against teams as Bayern (twice), Dortmund, Chelsea, Juventus, Real Madrid, Tottenham by the way in the Champions League.


    I get your general point but Tadic was really more of a center-forward or forward to be fair.

    To back up your point: Ronaldinho (a forward without many responsibilities) has 'only' two World Cup goals and 11 non-penalty goals in the Champions League in his entire career. I don't make this up.
     

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