Things we See

Discussion in 'Referee' started by DefRef, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    I got away with calling a foul after checking with my partner. Dual, defender dispossesses the attacker and starts my way. I am straight-lined. The former attacker pulls the jersey of the former defender and the sideline goes nuts. But the former defender is facing me and I can barely see the perp and did NOT see what he did. I looked at my partner who I know had to have seen what happened but he just looks at me. I blow the whistle stopping play, then jog to my partner. He said it was a jersey pull, and I asked him why he didn't blow the whistle. He said "It happened right in front of you. I wasn't going to call something that you weren't." I explained why I didn't see it, then tweeted the whistle again signaling DFK.

    Sad thing is, in my pregame I made a point of saying "If you see something and you know that you know that you KNOW is a foul, call it. Don't assume anything."
     
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  2. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Duals sound like a hoot! Too bad I have a day job and can't do high school duals in my area. My mind needs the extra stimulation. Duals and high school together should stimulate, right?
     
  3. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    Had a similar situation a few seasons into my tenure, but the ball was closer to opposite side of defender from my view... Applying some laws of physics and geometry, I knew exactly what had happened.

    So, I called the PK for handling. There was a little bit of player confusion, but this was a low-level game so just follow my instructions. They converted and ended up winning by two.

    After the game, my AR said: Well, no, it actually never came that close to contacting the arm/hand - it actually deflected down off a raised knee... o_O:eek:. A ref-buddy watching the game said the same thing :(:sick:.

    I wanted to puke.

    Learned some hard lessons that day about my gut assumptions, really stressing the "call me over if ---" during pregame with new/young AR's, and having an AR chat after a KMI if there's even a 1% chance I just screwed the pooch...
     
  4. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Many years ago now, D1 women's game, I'm AR and a long time friend who had refereed in the original NASL (we went to high school together) has the whistle. In the pre-game, he tells us "If I'm looking right at it, don't call it." (It was a different time with a different philosophy about referee-linesman relations and responsibility.) Sure enough, we have a moment when our positions are perfect. Him, ball, players, me. Holding foul by the white team, but he's looking right at it, so as much as my arm was twitching, I kept the flag down. After the game, I asked him why he didn't call that. He said, "I thought you were going to bail me out." Yeah, he knew what a stupid answer that was. About once a year, I remind him. After he's done my maintenance assessment. :)
     
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  5. fischietto

    fischietto Member

    Apr 13, 2018
    It’s a difficult balance as an AR! Sorry, but pregame instructions are not enough for me to be calling fouls left and right, even if I KNOW I had a better look. “Call what you see” and “feel out what I’m calling the first five minutes” are tired tropes that have no real impact.

    On the other hand, nothing is better than working with guys I know. I know what they want me to call and what they wouldn’t and can adapt as such. Game is so much better. No pregame can substitute for game time together.
     
  6. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Ok, let’s talk about this. I use a line like this a lot when I’m working with ARs who have a good enough reputation/get high-level enough assignments that I should trust them somewhat, but who I don’t actually know well enough to believe they will feel the game the same way I do. It doesn’t always work, to be sure, but I do feel like it’s the CR’s job to read the game and the players and adjust to the game they want (especially as we jump from level to level, game to game), and the AR’s should be in line with that.

    I sometimes give more specific guidance - and that can get ignored as well - but often what I really want is “I don’t know exactly what we are starting with, so trust me to figure out what the players want today and follow my lead so we are a team.” As an AR, I expect that.

    The alternative is of recent memory, when in an adult tournament final with a high degree of scrutiny and needing a fair amount of care, I had to go over to a (Grade 6) AR and nicely tell him to stop putting his f’ing flag up when I am right there because it is riling everybody up. He was deciding himself at those moments what the bar should be - and maybe he was right (he wasn’t), but it wasn’t in line with what I was calling.

    In a challenging game, the crew needs to feel the game together, and often that can only happen live. How else do you set that expectation?
     
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  7. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    So counter story: In preparation for the Olympics and the 2011 World Cup, Kari Seitz did almost every game (e.g. World Cup/Olympic Qualifying, PDL, et al.) with the same two AR's, who were going to do most or all of their games at the Olympics and World Cup with her. So hard core "game time together." Kari's pre-game before every game was still an hour and a half. If they were working that much together, why would she still want to go over everything pre-game?
     
  8. Sam_C

    Sam_C Member

    Manchester City
    Brazil
    Jun 19, 2018
    Just for the sake of argument, I can think of two reasonable answers: The first is simply that everyone at the top level has a routine; regardless of whether or not they consider it ritualistic, it is a big part of being in the right frame of mind come kickoff. After working so many games with a pre-game discussion, I imagine skipping the pre-game would be a huge routine breaker and could possibly affect her ability to get be in the correct headspace. The second reason is that the teams and players are changing every match and at that level, I believe a big part of the pre-game preparation should be alotted to understanding the dynamics of the match far past what we consider for our men's league or youth games. In my opinion, tactics and player management can be improved on a lot at the top level by doing homework before the game and then relaying this information throughout your crew so that everyone is on the same page. Again, I am just being the devil's advocate even though I agree that a pre-game is necessary and will continue doing them every game regardless of who I am working with.
     
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    My two cents: it’s also a story that tells us that we have to think about the pregame for THIS game. I find surprisingly too many refs have the same pregame every game—whether a 12U or 19U and whether their ARs are brand new or very experienced. They see it as something g to do so that they did it, rather than a tool to improve the particular game they are about to have.
     
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  10. tomek75

    tomek75 Member+

    Aug 13, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Think of a pre-game like a coach or a captain giving a pre-game pep talk to the team. The CR is the coach and the AR's, 4O, etc are the rest of the team. Pre-game is a game plan and every game is different. I don't care that I have worked with the same AR a 100 times and I trust them. It is just as important as what you do on the pitch.
    For a good pre-game you must do your homework. For the lowest levels get the game stats that usually are available online, like record, # of cards, goal differential etc... the more the merrier. Discuss it with your crew, your crew might have some insights about a particular player or a coach that can be invaluable. Also remember that every league typically has a rules of competition. Familiarize yourself with them before every game and review them with your crew. The stuff about keeping up with play etc.. is for beginning referees so that they get used to a pre-game.
    The higher you go the longer and more detailed pre-game will be. The crew won't talk about the stuff that should already be second nature. They will be talking about communication, style of play, team formations, change in formation, problem players, players that they have to protect, etc... These pregames are crucial to a good game plan and should never be taken for granted. I was involved in quite a few. Usually it started way before we got to the stadium. Our crew typically met for a small meal near the stadium and talked about most of it. By the time we got to the stadium we already knew what we were going to do. Once we got the rosters we went over some of the more specific issues that might arise. If you want to move up and be a good referee get used to it.
     
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  11. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Thank you for raising the what not to do issue.
    I was going to be an AR for the O-60 men's final at what is now USASA Soccer Fest, effectively the national championship for O-60, at least in the minds of the players. The assignor had decided that a young guy, 18 I think, was the second coming of Brian Hall, so the kid had the whistle. He starts his pre-game droning "Stay with the second last defender or the ball....." When he got done, the other AR exploded. "Do you know what grade I am?" (His badge said "Emeritus National Referee") "Uh-huh." "Do you know what grade he is [pointing to me]?" (State Referee) "Uh-huh." "That isn't what you say!! This is what you say:" and then he launched into a solid pre-game for teams like that, including what to do in the event of a fight, etc. The kid was practically having an accident in his pants by that point. But the game went just fine. :)
     
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  12. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    "Uh huh, about a decade past retirement" :D

    Joking of course, is that young kid still reffing?
     
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  13. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair, that's probably what I said in my pregames when I was 18.
     
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  14. SoccerRefNova

    SoccerRefNova Member

    DC United
    Mexico
    Mar 27, 2018
    There is nothing I love better than working with a young "hotshot". Those guys get so focused on the obvious cookie-cutter stuff that you wonder who trained them up.

    So I did an O-30 game this year as AR2 (Grade 7), AR1 (Grade 6), and our-up and-coming 20-year old Grade 6 center. Similar thing to what Law5 had (last defender, see what they can play through, ball completely over the line), and this game went to hell in handbasket.

    Now ignoring the obvious missed fouls & heated dissent, there was one moment in the game that showed me the Center missed the show here: He called a foul at in the defensive third, going out. Hard foul, and the players start having words, pointing fingers, chest-to-chest, etc. My man WALKS PAST THIS and is standing over the spot of the foul and pointing while the respective teammates are breaking up a shoving match.

    By the grace of the soccer Gods the rest of the game went without major incidents. But all I could think was "Another young buck armed with a whistle and fancy badge, thinking he walks on water." When asked after the game he said "I didn't see it, I had to get the spot." :whistling:
     
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  15. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've ran into a couple young grade 6 refs that had to be reminded to call the pushes in the back in front of the benches. Maybe it's the big positive change about the regional ref requirements.
     
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  16. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Snicker.

    We used to have a National Assessor here who had been a FIFA Referee in Italy. Gino was a wonderful guy, although his English was pretty shaky. He spoke just like Chico Marx. Seriously. When Gino was assessing you, you always learned something. He was famous for reminding referees during the debrief "Hahns in da bock. You missa da hahns in da bock."
     
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  17. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Has anyone else seen the video clip of Mike Dean stopping play for a foul and then reaching for his back pocket? The perp looks aghast until Deans pulls out a white handkerchief and wipes his forehead. They both laugh.
     
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  18. Schlager

    Schlager Member

    Dec 5, 2016
    I almost...almost had a keeper kick a goal kick into his own goal yesterday. Instead it just missed and went over the end line on the far side of the goal. Mind you, the result would have been the same -- a corner kick -- but kicking the ball directly into your own goal from a restart is something that I didn't think I would ever see until the recent changes to Law 16 made this (somewhat) feasible.
     
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  19. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I was assessing a game Sunday. The blue team simply could not figure out offside. The red team wasn't running a trap, just the contrary, in fact, but it was just crazy how many times blue was called off. Not to mention how many times the AR should have called them off if he had been properly lined up, but I digress. Late in the game, a blue forward, in an offside position, sees the ball played forward and he raises his hand to call himself offside! He quickly pulled it down after realizing that the ball actually went to a teammate about 10 yards away who was coming from an onside position.
     
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  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've seen the clip it of this ref during the summer in a charity match. If you saw Mike Dean do it, it was probably "borrowed" from this guy.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/c22w4e/referee_trolls_player/
     
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  21. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    I had the pleasure of working one of the lowest quality GV games ever today. 2 inner city Technical schools, probably in first game of season. The visiting team had maybe 3 athletes and 1 soccer player on their team. The goalie was probably doing first game ever. Saw so many weird things

    On opening score, the visiting goalie just cleared out of the net, letting the attacker just dribble into the net. On the next one, the visiting striker is yelling cover 23, cover 23, cover 23. Sure enough 23 is all alone at the 18, gets the pass and easily scores. I make eye contact with the girl doing the yelling and said, "you called it". She grumbles, "I told them to cover her......"

    Every once in a while, a visiting player would make solid contact on a kick and clear the ball up half the field. The would trigger wild screams of approval and literal jumping up and down in glee on the bench.

    Whenever the visiting team got a throw in, we had to keep saying white throw, white throw, white throw......90% of the players would not take a throw in. And we had at least 5 illegal throws. After 20 minutes, I was literally coaching every player every single time what they could or could not do in every dead ball situation.

    It is 6-0 at the half and the home coach tells us he is not going to shoot anymore and will only play 9. For the entire 2nd half, his players dribble the ball into the corner and tries to play it back out again. Probably did this 50 times. And he would sub all 9 players every 5 minutes.

    It was excruciating...........:speechless:
     
  22. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Last week, in a college game, I had the keeper kick it over the goal line, wide of the PA, for a corner. That was a first for me. I can check that one off the "weird laws/rules you'll never actually see" list.
     
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  23. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    ...which serves to remind me that under the new Law, if the keeper does that even inside the PA, it's now in play and therefore also a corner kick. I'll probably need three more reminders before I get that one right.
     
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  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My brain process on that.

    *Wait the ball was in play when it was kicked *
    *Wait you can't score on yourself from a restart*

    *"Corner kick!" *
     
  25. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Now I'll only need two reminders. ;)
     
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