The greatest 1980s NT player vs the elite and darkhorse teams

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Vegan10, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    So here’s the difficult part in choosing a winner between Rummenigge and Platini, both better than Zico against the elite sides and in major competitions overall.

    With Platini reviewed, let’s focus on Rummenigge in major events.

    1978 World Cup
    Rummenigge doesn’t make an impact in his first major tournament and the Germans underachieve as one of the top 3 ranked sides in the world. Against the Italians, Dutch and Austrian’s he received mixed reviews that alternated between mediocre/good. But like Platini and Zico none made a strong impression.

    Euro 1980
    West Germany has no problems qualifying as they are one of the strongest sides in the world (if not the best). Rummenigge is a pivotal part of their campaign in qualifying to the Euro Championship held in Italy.

    In the tournament itself he faces some of the top ranked sides in the world (Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and Belgium, all top 10). He scored only 1 goal and had 1 assist but is key in decisive matches. It’s also a defensive tournament with a low scoring of 1.92 goals per game. Although there’s nothing spectacular or transcending in his play, he receives good reviews in mostly every match. The Germans are victorious, and Rummenigge is voted by press voices as the best player in the competition.

    In comparison with Platini, the German has overcome the Czechs, the side that eliminated France in the qualifiers to reach the tournament. In addition, he’s faced stronger competition (on paper) in comparison to Platini in 1984, whose opponents are ranked mostly out of the top 10 or in the case of Belgium, under-strength. However, West Germany is the number 1 ranked side in the world in 1980 and their win is expected as primary favorites. Rummenigge lives up to his reputation as Europe’s premier player, although never reaches the heights of Platini in 1984.

    1982 World Cup
    Rummenigge struggles with fitness issues. He fails to impress vs Austria and England with disappointing performances. In the semifinals vs France (direct H2H with Platini) his arrival off the bench turns the tide in the Germans favor. It’s the only time against a top team where he makes a good impression and France are eliminated. The Germans meet the Italians in the final, where Rummenigge struggles and receives low grades from the media. Rummenigge is voted top 3 best performer at the World Cup by FIFA’s journalists, but his overall performance does not measure up to his reputation.

    Euro 1984
    Rummenigge is pivotal in Germany’s road to qualifying to France ‘84. His best game arriving against a top 10 ranked Austrian side. The Germans are still one of the favorites entering the competition as being ranked in the top 3 in the world. Rummenigge looks to further cement his legacy as one of the best players of his generation.

    But on the big stage the Germans ranked 2 in the world are a disappointment, failing to make it out of the group stage as defending champs against inferior opposition (at least on paper). Rummenigge doesn’t standout, despite this tournament being more open with a higher scoring ratio of 2.73 than the previous one. In the pivotal encounter vs Spain he’s rated average by Mundo Deportivo and regarded by the German newspaper of ‘Kicker’ as “committed too many errors”.

    Platini, on home soil and avoiding his most dangerous opponent, engineers France to their first ever triumph. Rummenigge relinquishes his throne as Europe’s emperor and Platini takes over the mantle.

    1986 World Cup
    On the grandest stage Rummenigge once again is not 100% fit but plays nevertheless. He no longer is the player of past years and knows it’s his last chance at the World Cup. But his tournament is a struggle, never produces anything better than mediocre/average displays. He confronts Platini again in the semifinals with the German winning the battle again, but neither player shines. He does his best in the final with a goal that brings the Germans back into contention vs the Argentinians, but victory escapes him in the last minutes. He retires afterwards with 2 silver WC medals and 1 Euro title.
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I definitely respect your approach with the press reviews, and selecting high level opponents to concentrate on Vegan mate, but yeah this section is what I have doubts about (on both counts - whether 1978 is under-played as well as whether 1980 is over-played):

    "1978 World Cup
    Rummenigge doesn’t make an impact in his first major tournament and the Germans underachieve as one of the top 3 ranked sides in the world. Against the Italians, Dutch and Austrian’s he received mixed reviews that alternated between mediocre/good. But like Platini and Zico none made a strong impression.

    Euro 1980
    West Germany has no problems qualifying as they are one of the strongest sides in the world (if not the best). Rummenigge is a pivotal part of their campaign in qualifying to the Euro Championship held in Italy.

    In the tournament itself he faces some of the top ranked sides in the world (Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and Belgium, all top 10). He scored only 1 goal and had 1 assist but is key in decisive matches. It’s also a defensive tournament with a low scoring of 1.92 goals per game. Although there’s nothing spectacular or transcending in his play, he receives good reviews in mostly every match. The Germans are victorious, and Rummenigge is voted by press voices as the best player in the competition.

    In comparison with Platini, the German has overcome the Czechs, the side that eliminated France in the qualifiers to reach the tournament. In addition, he’s faced stronger competition (on paper) in comparison to Platini in 1984, whose opponents are ranked mostly out of the top 10 or in the case of Belgium, under-strength. However, West Germany is the number 1 ranked side in the world in 1980 and their win is expected as primary favorites. Rummenigge lives up to his reputation as Europe’s premier player, although never reaches the heights of Platini in 1984. "

    I'm thinking the end result (Germany winning the trophy) might just be leading things a bit too much. But like I said I'm only going off partial viewing/reading myself, so don't want to state anything as a fact at this point.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Unfortunately the reports aren't available (I guess) but here are the France Football ratings (out of 6) for Zico, Rummenigge, Platini in WC 1978, which perhaps add to what I'm saying a bit (pending info about Rummenigge's Euro 1980 grades but from what I recall they aren't really outstanding, although Vegan's summary didn't suggest they would be to be fair).

    My interpretation of France Football's ratings would be something like: 0 (worthless - perhaps due to sending off), 1 (very poor), 2 (below average), 3 (average/standard), 4 (good to very good), 5 (excellent), 6 (outstanding). We won't all agree with their verdicts every time of course - I remember that sometimes when they've given a 2 or 3 I've felt it was harsh, and sometimes when they gave a 6 or 5 I felt it could be a bit too much. Platini is French of course too, but it's not certain whether that if anything would more likely lead to harsh verdicts (due to expectations) or generous ones (due to being a 'jewel' of the team).

    Zico - Sweden (4), Spain (3), Austria (no rating - sub appearance), Peru (no rating - sub appearance), Argentina (4 - sub appearance), Poland (no rating - subbed off with injury early).

    Rummenigge - Mexico (5), Tunisia (3), Italy (3), Netherlands (4), Austria (4)

    Platini - Italy (3), Argentina (4), Hungary (3 - sub appearance)

    From what I've seen I'd feel fairly assured about saying I agree that Zico merits the grades vs Sweden and Argentina. Ditto Platini vs Argentina probably too. I'd think Rummenigge vs Mexico would be generally regarded as a very good one but have less idea about the overall performance, and even less for Austria (slightly less for the Netherlands game too even maybe compared to the Zico/Platini 4s).
     
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    Yeah, mate, the 1978 World Cup drew mixed reviews amongst different sources.


    Zico
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/th...-darkhorse-teams.2088447/page-2#post-37231336


    Rummenigge
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/th...-darkhorse-teams.2088447/page-5#post-37276450
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    In fact the sources available at the time have Rummenigge at Euro 1980 as a steady performer. The main problem here is that the 1980 competition was deemed as ‘mediocre’ by world pundits alike, with one of history’s lowest scoring major tournaments, with few outstanding performances and lots of bickering of players against the officials. It’s kind of a forgotten Euro tournament in comparison to the others that followed in the same decade. I think this plays against Rummenigge in the big scheme of things.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I'm just wondering whether 'steady' in a 'mediocre' tournament is really better than he showed in 1978 if you know what I mean.

    Yeah, thanks Puck - those France Football ratings are what I'd recalled you posting before. Ceulemans 3 stars above Rummenigge, but perhaps Rummenigge getting a 4 and a 5 in the games not listed on that page. I had felt from what I'd seen of the Final he wasn't overall great in that one, but he does only get 3 stars for his performance there.

    I possibly feel like more would be made of his tournament if it was really exceptional within the period of his biggest fame, but I do get the impression over the next couple of seasons (autumn 1980 to summer 1982) he shone as much as pretty much anyone (perhaps it's overall a better period for him and Zico than for Maradona and Platini even, but the latter two maybe as good or better on their best days, or in their best moments in that 2 year window(?) as I know Maradona had his spells of great form at Boca still, and Platini was very content with his final season and how he ended his St Etienne career I know plus the Italy game fits in that window too).
     
  7. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    So scoring a few decisive free kicks is all it takes to become an all time great free kick taker? Other factors like total number of free kicks scored, difficulty of the fk shouldn't be taken into account?
     
  8. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Those dry-leaf FK are not exactly easy to execute, actually...

    Serious question : among those who scored +50 free kicks scored in their carreer, who have a better ratio (free-kicks scored per game) than Platini (about 1 FK every 10 games, looking at the panel of games we know) ? I bet there are not a lot.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #260 carlito86, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    Platini quit early so it isn't actually a fair comparison to those who played significantly more games

    Between 2007/08-2011/12
    Cristiano Ronaldo played 290 games for club and country and scored 30 free kicks
    1 free kick every 10 matches over a comparable sample size of matches


    We are only 100% certain of 27 free kicks for platini
    Not 50+ (at least not yet-there is no guarantee he maintained a 1 in 10 ratio over 500+ ,games
    I'm not buying it for one second)
     
  10. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    You've still not told me where your 41 number comes from, btw...
    You must have confused it with the number of goals he scored with France.

    Anyway, France football stated he crossed the bar of 50. I see no reason to believe he did not for the reasons already exposed but I won't argue about it anymore because that looks a bit pointless at that point.
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In France(saint ettiene and Nancy)
    Not for France (NT)
     
  12. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    What ? I know that video but that doesn't answer my question o_O
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That video contains a substantial amount of free kicks platini took whilst playing in France

    Added on to what we know
    His NT tally
    His tally in European club competitions
    His serie A tally


    The number reached is still not 50 (let alone 60+)

    You aren't bringing anything to the discussion except conjecture
    for whatever reason you want or are even desperate for platini to have x amount of set pieces
    I can't expect you to be objective on this topic (even in front of clear cut footage)
    We will leave it here
     
  14. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Kuddos to the guy who made the video it still shows a small portion of Platini's goals in France : 15 out of 128 (!) for Nancy -where as we know he was quite prolific- and 44 or 45 out of 82 for Saint-Etienne... 60/210... so 150 goals are missing.

    Anyway, I counted 12 free-kicks in this video,11 for Saint-Etienne alone. Furthermore, 2 fk scored in European cup are missing in the video (out of 3). So we can count 13 free-kicks scored for Saint-Etienne alone as certain facts (11 in the video + the 2 missing), out of 82 goals... and there could be a few more as 37 or 38 goals are missing !

    At that point we have 27 + 12 = 39 confirmed free-kicks scored by Platini...

    So unless I' m wrong, we've got 166 goals remaining (the remaining goals with Nancy, Saint-Etienne and Juve in La Copa Italia) - ie almost half of the total of all the goals scored by Platini (355)... are you still sure we couldn't find... 2 FK (to reach your magical 41 number) out of them ? Or more seriously 11 additional ones, to cross the bar of 50, as France football stated ? 11/166... Given Platini's productivity in the large panel of games we're having now and knowing how accurate Platini was in Nancy, I bet he exceeded that bar.
     
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  15. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Good summary. Thanks. it permits to see clearer in this.
     
    babaorum repped this.
  16. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Wait ! I' ve found 2 more FK ! Platini scored 2 free-kicks in a single game vs the great Ivan Curkovic (Saint Etienne) in the French Cup in 1975 ! I think we've just hit the 41 magical bar, don't we ? But 164 goals -slightly less than half of the total of goals scored by Platini in his whole carreer- are still missing !...

    Is there a small chance that Platini scored the huge amount of... 9 additional free-kicks to hit the 50 bar, according to you ?
     
  17. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #268 babaorum, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    1 more : Coppa Italia 09/09/1984 vs Sambebenedettese

    And I counted 14 FK in Serie A, not 13.




    At that point I count 43 free-kicks out of the -more or less- 193 goals we've registered until now. Still -more or less- 162 goals missing... Is there a little chance that Platini didn't score the considerable amount of 7 FK out of these 162 goals to reach the 50 bar according to you ?
     
  18. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    162 goals plus the 3 missing in the European cups that were mentioned earlier. Let' s say it' s between 160 and 165 goals that remain unclear.
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Wherever the footage and data takes us will be my answer

    NOT interested in maybe, possibly, probably, I think, most likely etc

    Without extensively researching the topic myself, without particularly being a fan of platini I pointed you towards those extra free kicks.
    According of you estimates of his Saint ettienne and Nancy tally was total guess work

    It seems one person is interested in getting down to the hard cold facts
    The other is interested in perpetrating myths
     
  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    According to the sources at hand in 1978 he has mixed reviews and is not a standout figure in any game against a top ranked side. There’s no decisive contribution in any key match and although there’s nothing to write home about his 1980 campaign, it has less peaks and falls than in 1978.
     
  22. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Dude, the hard cold fact is the simple calculation I made from the videos available : 43 free kicks goals until now. No guess here. The myth is your 41 figure that comes from nowhere... The hard cold fact is that just looking at a bit more than half of all Platini' s goals you' ve already surpassed that number...
     
  23. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    About Rummenigge at the Euro '80, I think that the two main things were that he was decisive against Czechoslovakia (holder of the trophy, very first game of the tournament and already decisive, this before to play against The Netherlands (then Greece), the other big thing being that he often played in support of the two strikers througout the tournament, not always but often. He was a bit more "number 10" in this competition, operating between the midfield and the attack. And globally was very good with a new and noticeable influence on its team in that new role for him.
    Nothing really that transcendantal though it seems indeed, at the image of this Euro championship. But still.
    It seems that he made defensive efforts too. Wich he did not do enough in the first part of his career perhaps. For a set of reasons, it's a turning point in his career for sure.
    I think that when asked about it, Platini said that Rummenigge was the best during this year or more generally "at the moment" and that it was deserved, first because of his talent and for the title that the German were able to win, as they're acustomed to do, wich doesn't hurt. Something like that. Also Platini did not regret that France did not qualify because he could not see what they could have done in this tournament. Wich was a lucid statement.
     
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  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I see what you're saying in a way in terms of him being declared (arguably, or according to some verdicts) top player in 1980 while he'd be according to anyone probably a bit down the list at least for the 1978 WC. I'm just thinking that due to the length of tournament, and more of a lack of other candidates (Kempes for example did more in 1978 than anyone in 1980 although he had his own lesser moments early-ish such as vs Italy, while a Ceulemans did pretty well in 1980 but with less iconic moments overall of course), then a straight comparison between his actual form in those two tournaments might not be clear cut. The France Football ratings for him would be closely matched also.

    For example, it probably does have less peaks, as although not a top contender, Mexico were put away so comfortably thanks to him in large part and he scored an impressive solo goal in that game, and even the opening goal here vs Austria is better than any key contribution in 1980 (the header vs the Czechs probably required good anticipation, but I guess it'd be argued it owed more to Allofs than KHR if anything - the assister might be deemed to have conjured the goal more than the scorer needing to come up with something special?):


    Anyway, maybe we can agree to possibly disagree lol. I just felt giving one tournament a 'pass' from his perspective and the other a 'fail' might not be reasonable, except that his team won the trophy in the second one (he did play in a corner that was scored from didn't he in the Final, but like I say others played better and contributed more to the final result that day I think, and the France Football ratings say that too - Schuster played less games though so couldn't be seen as easily as a Player of the Tournament even if player of the final match).

    I don't want to drag it on anyway, and I know it's not like you were glowing about his Euro 80 exactly. Maybe it's as much that I don't see his WC78 (or Zico's or Platini's) as without some merit and quality and stand-out moments. But yes, overall none of them were player of the tournament material and they might have been expected to be beforehand, especially Platini and Zico at that time maybe (maybe KHR was seen as an up an coming player)?
     
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