Your Top 10-100 Players Of The Century?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Viola Star, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Viola Star

    Viola Star Member

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    May 9, 2006
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #51 Viola Star, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    That's not even an argument of any sort. What happened to Modric?
    Did he change into Clarence Seedorf overnight?

    Seedorf century club stats:
    93 goals/81 assists

    Take away Brazilian league stats cause it's second rate:
    76 goals/67 assists

    (Another source gives it as 62 goals/68 assists.)

    32 apps for nat team/4 goals. Missed out on WC 2002.

    Scholes made 46 apps for his national team with 4 goals.
    Scholes made 472 apps for club, Seedorf 467.
    Scholes has 107 goals/47 assists this century for his club.


    Seedorf's stats are padded because he played for Botafogo. His
    passing wasn't anywhere near as good as Scholes. Scholes
    makes more passes per game with a better percentage,
    more interceptions, blocks,tackles and long balls.
    Check whoscored.

    Scholes arguably played in a deeper position than Seedorf for
    most of the century too.


    Maybe Scholes is a bit high when you take into account his
    limited international career, but there's no need to put
    Modric ahead of him or Seedorf anywhere near him.

    I'm still waiting for the 'endless list' of midfielders with more goals
    and assists than Scholes.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #52 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Fancy adjective to describe literally the only clear cut chance Ronaldinho created vs Milan 05/06

    MIlan 05/06 finished 3rd place serie A 18 points of inter Milan and wasnt by any stretch of definition the best club team in the world
    Not on form (defensive or offensive) and not in trophies

    Which adjective do we use to describe this assist by dejan savecivic?
    against saachis Milan, on form the best team in the world,with the best players of that era
    A team that actually won the scudetto and European cup (Milan 05/06 won nothing)
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Scholes never received a vote for the Ballon d'Or. Modric won the whole thing and Seedorf got nominated for five different club teams. He has more goals and assists in the Champions League and also in competitive games for his country.

    You are a fake news king.
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #54 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Completely useless BS,

    Milan 4 days before Barcelona just defeated Inter in the Italian Serie A:

    You can choice:

    according to Elo Football,

    Milan was the current TOP2: 2188 vs Barcelona's 2184
    and Chelsea the TOP1 when they faced Barcelona: 2221 vs 2213
    http://elofootball.com/club/clubprofile/clubprofile.php?clubid=883&season=2005-2006

    Or according to Club Elo:
    Milan was the TOP3: 1947 Pts http://clubelo.com/2006-04-18/Ranking
    and Chelsea the TOP1: 1963 Pts http://clubelo.com/2006-02-21/Ranking
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #55 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    @Tropeiro

    Last attempt to reason before I quit on this
    Your criteria for evaluating a players performance as you have shown on the last few pages is
    1.)ELO points acquired by team
    2.)Dbs calcio
    3.)percentage of goals vs big teams
    4.)assists and goals
    5.)ESM rankings


    Is R9 1997/98 an all time peak?
    You called it a historic season

    Now using your criteria please answer these questions

    Was R9 the highest rated player by dbs calcio in serie A 1997/98 ?

    Did he top score?

    Did he lead in assists?

    Was his record vs periodic top 4 league teams world class?

    Did he top score in the uefa cup 97/98?

    Did he top score in the 1998 world cup?

    Did he have more ESM team of the month rankings than CR 2006/07 ?

    Was he involved in a higher percentage of goals and/or assists than CR 07/08,11/12 and 14/15?

    What's the most ELO points acquired by R9s teams during his prime?

    Can you answer any of these questions without switching the criteria to
    " but Serie A was so strong"
    "Look at this video on YouTube"
    ???
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    He accepted the fact. OK. We can move on now...
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #57 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    1-0 :eek:
    Scored by a left back who scored 2 goals all season
    Inter Milan still won the title by 18 points
    Milan was such a unimpressive league team under ancelloti whose champions league form was masked by easy runs particularly in 2004-2007
    Inter Milan 05/06 wasn't even remotely special within the context of great league teams of the early 2000s (as arsenal, deportivo,Manchester united,real Madrid, ,barcelona etc)

    These are facts and im done
    Enough time has been wasted

    Edit:
    The rest is just copy and pasted recycled stats so not worthy of a response
     
  8. Viola Star

    Viola Star Member

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    May 9, 2006
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #58 Viola Star, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    You're beyond hopeless.

    Scholes got nominated for Ballon d'or 5 times since 2000.
    Seedorf got nominated 2 times since 2000.
    Scholes got no votes.
    Seedorf got a grand total of 7 votes one year.
    So on the basis of 7 votes rests your entire argument? LOL.

    In fact, Modric also got nominated less times for the award
    than Scholes.

    I don't give a shit about a silly popularity contest like the
    Ballon d'Or anyway. Younis Mahmoud got votes one
    year. Who? Exactly.
    Seedorf has 8 goals and 16 assists in the CL:
    https://fbref.com/en/players/e6af3cc7/Clarence-Seedorf
    Scholes has 18 goals and 9 assists in the CL and more apps:
    https://fbref.com/en/players/24a3a72c/Paul-Scholes

    So you're wrong again!

    I already pointed out that both of them have a grand total of 4 goals for
    their country since 2000.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Seedorf#International_goals
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Scholes#International_goals

    So you're wrong again!


    “Scholesy was a top, top player. But I still don’t fall for that boy-next-door image, or that he’s dead humble. He has more of an edge to him. Everyone thinks he lives in a council flat.

    “No celebrity bullshit, no self-promotion – an amazingly gifted player who remained an unaffected human being.”-Roy Keane

    Socrates (Brazil): Good enough to play for Brazil. I love to watch Scholes, to see him pass, the boy with the red hair and the red shirt.

    Pep Guardiola described the Englishman as “the best midfielder of his generation”.

    Even Lionel Messi grew up learning from Scholes. "At La Masia his name was mentioned a lot,” the five-time Ballon d’Or winner once said. “He’s a teacher."

    "My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation" – Zinedine Zidane

    "For me, it's Paul Scholes. He'll do ridiculous things in training like say: 'You see that tree over there?' – it'll be 40 yards away – 'I'm going to hit it.' And he'll do it. Everyone at the club considers him the best" – Rio Ferdinand

    Cesc Fabregas: For any football player in the Premiership, Scholes is a player you want to emulate. One player does not make a team but there is no doubt that the presence of some players add extra motivation and confidence. Scholes is a player with character and is capable of transmitting that mental strength to his team-mates.

    "Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team – that goes to show how highly I have always rated him. An all-round midfielder who possesses quality and character in abundance" – Marcello Lippi

    "I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player" – Laurent Blanc

    "Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership has to be Paul Scholes. He knows how to do everything, and he is the one who directs the way his team plays. On top of that, he has indestructible mental strength, and he is a genuine competitor" – Thierry Henry

    "People say he is a great player, but you have to define what a great player is. For me, it is a player who has a bottom level that means his worst performance is not noticed. If he is having a bad game, a team-mate might feel Paul Scholes is not quite on his game, but a spectator wouldn't notice. Scholes, of all the players I have played with, has the highest bottom level. His reading of the game is unsurpassed. He has an eye for a pass, for what the play or the game needs at that precise moment, that I have never seen anyone else have. He controls and distributes the play and the game better than anyone I have ever seen" – Peter Schmeichel

    "Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes" – Edgar Davids

    "I have no hesitation in putting a name to the embodiment of all that I think is best about football. It's Paul Scholes. Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich. Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite. I love his nous and conviction that he will find a way to win, to make the killer pass or produce the decisive volley. When a game reaches a vital phase, these qualities seem to come out of his every pore. He's always on the ball, always turning on goal. He's always looking to bring other people into the action and if he loses possession you think he must be ill" – Sir Bobby Charlton

    "When I think about all I have won with Spain and Barcelona and all they great players I have played with - it is impossible for me to have any regrets.Maybe one small regret is that I never got to play with Paul Scholes - but I was never going to leave Barcelona and he was never going to leave Manchester United. In the last 15 to 20 years the best central midfielder that I have seen — the most complete — is Scholes. I have spoken with Xabi Alonso about this many times. Scholes is a spectacular player who has everything, He can play the final pass, he can score, he is strong, he never gets knocked off the ball and he doesn’t give possession away. If he had been Spanish then maybe he would have been valued more."-Xavi


    Come back when you've thought of something intelligent to say. I'm not
    going to waste my time with lazy posters.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Your facts are incorrect.
     
  10. Viola Star

    Viola Star Member

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    May 9, 2006
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Prove it or don't bother posting. You're wasting time.

    Check out all the quotes from the greats on Paul Scholes
    in my edited post above then tell us how Seedorf is better.
     
  11. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    - When Zidane retired, he hadn't been his clubs best player in the preceding three years. Ronaldinho had been the best player in the world in those years.
    - I didn't say Ronaldinho was a much better player than Zidane, but his performances in 03-06 were of a higher quality than Zidane in 01-04. His peak was much higher than Zidane's early Madrid years which for me aren't even the best years by a Madrid player in the first 6 years of the century.

    https://www.xtratime.org/forum/156-...maradona-says-pele.html#/topics/193641?page=1

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b-who-is-better-ronaldinho-or-maradona-b.269274/

    These are threads, just two examples, here and on xtratime. At the time I'd say they were the two more active online forums for football (I could be wrong). I used to ghost read here and post on xtratime back then, I was also in England at the time, in my mid teens, and the impression you are giving is very inaccurate. A lot of people (not everyone), really did feel Ronaldinho was an all time great. Some people felt he was an all time great in the making, but others genuinely felt he was already an all time great. That's how I remember it, personally, and it was the buzz back then, right or wrong, that was how it was back then with no benefit of hindsight.
    It was before the explosion of stats in football, you knew the top scorer and might have cared for who had the most assists but really people remembered that little "dance" and shot past Chelsea, the elastico then left footed shot vs Milan, the scooped assist for Xavi vs Madrid, the two goals vs Madrid, the scooped pass for Messi's first goal, the dribbles vs Zaragoza, him using some ridiculous close control vs Atletico, the rainbow flick over the defender's head followed by an assist to Deco, the back heel passes to Van Bronckhorst down the left flank that seemed to come off no matter how many players were between the two of them, the low diagonal switch across to Giuly or whoever would play right back etc etc so many beautiful moments and shows of breath taking skill and efficiency (he wasn't just showboating). People saw that and at the time truly felt they were witnessing one of the very greatest. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we know it's as good as it got. And now almost a decade and a half one can even pull some numbers supposedly to argue Lampard was the superior passer? I'm not sure what the figures are for.
    - Nobody is comparing Messi to Ronaldinho. Though I think you'll find Ronaldinho in 03-04 was a better season than Messi in 07-08. Both of them were a class, or several ahead of Xavi, when one saw both or even all three on the pitch at the same time.
    - Those key pass stats are what they are. You could use them to argue Ronaldo was twice the passer Messi was. Btw, I didn't say Xavi was not class in 09/10. It's in the middle of his 08-09 to 10-11 period. It was the weakest of those three seasons though, for a number of Barca players too. Henry was going downhill, they were struggling to incorporate Ibra properly and so on. It's the seasons outside of those three where I don't see him as all that (in the context of this debate). He's still a very good midfielder.

    I'll conclude by saying, Ronaldinho right now is going through the exact same thing Zidane went through some years back, where his place is being debated and there's a lot of analysis until he finds his "correct" place in consensus. There was a thread in this forum where Zidane was analysed and critiqued - his consistency was questioned and his "big game" reputation was also under the spotlight. I reckon it's good that as football fans we do that and I'm looking forward to your response.
    It will take a lot of convincing for me to see Xavi as being the superior player though lol, I watched the two of them on the pitch at the same time. And it never once occurred to me, or most observers at the time that Xavi was in that league or had the potential to be (they are almost exactly the same age). There were always mentions of Deco, and Eto'o but never Xavi.
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Curious but what is "historical" about R9 97/98?
    You do realise that he is literally the only player on your list who didn't propel his team to the summit of world football

    Why is an exception made for him and not Roberto Baggio 1992/93 (who excelled also in the second tier uefa cup and had great solo goals against top teams in serie A)

    Historical seasons should only be those during which a player raises his team to summit of world football
    (Displaying great individualism+team play in the process of doing so)

    R9 literally was outscored in every single competition he was eligible to participate in during 97/98 (except the copa italia I think)
    He was outscored by players who played for significantly inferior teams I might add

    His individualism and ball hogging entitlements most likely came at the expense of team results
    1 million dribbling runs in 97/98 resulted in literally in one world class dribbling solo goal in the whole season

    6 assists in all competitions(less than George weah 95/96)

    Note:
    Maradona 85/86 was great but doesn't belong in this conversation (perhaps only 89/90 does from his napoli career)
    85/86 was made legendary by his world cup
    Without it wasn't in the top 25 seasons of the 80s decade
     
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To be fair, if he wasn't injured in the World Cup final, he might have been able to "propel his team to the summit of world football."

    While his teams didn't have the greatest season, Ronaldo personally did. He won:
    How Zidane, who didn't even win Bronze Ball in the World Cup, somehow ended with a Ballon D'or over Ronaldo cannot be explained in football terms.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #64 carlito86, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
    Propelled his team but was outscored by David suker?

    The bar is high and so it should be
    If CR of real Madrid was outscored by mandzukic or tevez in the champions league what would the narrative be

    Individual accolades are important and it is beyond doubt that R9 was the standout player of 97/98 ( a highly competitive ballon dor year I might add-one of the most competitive of the last 25 years)

    Still it was definitely not perfect
    As a striker (R9s primary function) a set piece and penalty taker for one of the top 3 teams in Italy how is he being outscored by mediocre players?

    Did this happen to Eusebio in his prime
    Did this happen to Messi in his prime
    Did this happen to CR in his prime

    The fact is prime R9 had one particular way of playing
    You could say one dimensional
    If you could double mark him and foul him out of a match his threat was completely neutralised

    On corners particularly in Italy he was useless
    He literally posed no aerial threat
    He was good without ever being great at free kicks
    His shots from out the box were pretty wild also
    His positioning was world class but became much better with age

    This is where all those extra goals come from that make a historic season

    All time is different from being the best of your time
    Again I'm not limiting R9 in his prime just to goals but heck he was a CF they were a pretty significant If not the most significant part of his game
    His dribbling was more of a means or mechanism to create opportunities for himself to score

    He wasn't a trickster in a traditional showboating sense (everything was purposeful)


    R9 would have to be a significantly superior scorer to his peers to warrant a mention as a historical scorer
    Not just marginally

    Outside of "poacher" 2015/16 suarez no one has gotten close to the peak numbers of Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo in the league

    Even less close in the champions league

    R9 wasn't able to "mature"(for lack of a better word) to a level where he was a phenomenon against heavyweights and minnows alike

    R9 was a phenomenon against bottom 10 periodic league teams.
    Perhaps as great as any striker has ever been against these teams
    Against direct title challengers and teams that were equipped to pose some challenge he was nowhere near as devastating
    Nowhere near

    on prime R9s resume a big game performance does not exist as
    Van Basten vs real Madrid 88/89
    Van Basten steaua 88/89
    Van Basten vs USSR 88
    Van Basten vs England 88
    Van Basten vs napoli 92 (4 open
    play goals in a single match against a periodic top 4 side -in the best league in Europe)
    Puskas vs benfica 62/63
    Eusebio vs real Madrid 62/63

    The closest R9 got was against lazio in the uefa cup final 98
    Lazio finished 6th in serie A and R9 scored a inconsequential 3rd goal (a nice iconic goal but still let's not gloss over important details)

    As I said the bar for a historic season is high and so it should be
     
  15. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    It's a good collection of names, although such a long extended list is a bit difficult to judge (especially identifying the "main absences", the "doubtful inclusions" or the "strange positions").

    Probably the way to read it to comment would be a bit easier if you grouped them by position/role (and that would also facilitate self-review).

    According to that mental relocation my biggest conflicts by role would be:

    Centre-Backs

    I struggle to consider Sergio Ramos as the best central defender of the 21st century. Despite his regularity in a big and successful club and his leader image I think his skills have not been so exceptional, especially considered to Alessandro Nesta (even with his injuries), Fabio Cannavaro (at his peak at mid 2000's), his compatriot Carles Puyol (37 positions of difference between them I think could be excessive) or even the unnamed John Terry and Thiago Silva (I doubt a little about Vincent Kompany and Leonardo Bonucci getting a place on the list).

    Side-Backs/Wing-Backs

    In my personal view Roberto Carlos may be easily the most prominent player in this position in this century. The influence he had in Real Madrid and with the Brazilian national team (even cutting off a part of the 1990's) seems to me even higher than Philipp Lahm reached, although I understand that there is some resistance on it for the issue defensive/offensive balance (which deserves a separate discussion). On the other hand, despite how I estimate Gianluca Zambrotta, I'd struggle to consider him before the unnamed Maicon (especially due to his huge performance peak), Marcelo (one of the most impressive of the last decade) or English Ashley Cole.

    Defensive/Box-to-box Midfielders

    I think Roy Keane could have a too high location (especially cutting off part of the 1990's) and, personally, I think that Frank Lampard should be as tall as Steven Gerrard (but on the list maybe not in the top 5, that perhaps very high for the English). Considering the inclusions of Daniele De Rossi or Marco Verratti, I consider the exclusion of Arturo Vidal, N'Golo Kanté, Edgar Davids (even cutting part of the 1990's) or Michael Essien (considering the last Italian I would turn to see the case of other unnamed goalkeepers as Petr Cech, Júlio César or David de Gea).
     
  16. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Playmakers

    I think Zinedine Zidane could easily lead this category (much disputed with Xavi due to the 1990's cut). Although his impact is somewhat short due to his retirement in 2006 and even considering his decline in his last seasons with Real Madrid, I think he accumulates much of his best at club and international level basically in this century (between the 1999-00 and 2003-04 seasons) and one last big spark at the 2006 World Cup. Although I think there could be some debate, that Paul Scholes appears before seems me a bit weird.

    Like some, Andrea Pirlo's position seems me very high, especially considering Xavi himself and Andrés Iniesta as options that could beat him in this comparison (maybe in a very closed). On the other hand, I would personally consider the inclusions of Juninho Pernambucano and Rui Costa to be doubtful (the latter due to the great cut he would suffer from the 1990's) considering the unnamed German Mesut Özil and Toni Kroos.

    Wing-Forwards

    I think the battle between Luís Figo (including his 1990's cut) and Arjen Robben is very disputed. Meanwhile, I would probably opt for Franck Ribéry over Ryan Giggs (a bit diminished by his 1990's cut). By the way, I doubt the inclusion of Andrey Arshavin (the late irruption in the last 3 seasons of Kylian Mbappé I think could already overcome his transcendence).

    Forwards

    In my opinion, a very notable absence is Raúl, who between 1999-00 and 2002-03 seasons I think he was among the best players in the world. That added to a certain regularity and his final rebirth with Real Madrid in his last seasons (2007-08 and 2008-09) and his laudable campaigns in Germany I think they give some more weight to his case compared with Dennis Bergkamp's and perhaps Alessandro Del Piero's.

    I'm not sure if they could enter, but Alexis Sánchez and Antoine Griezmann seem absences with some notoriety.

    Centre-Forwards/Strikers

    Perhaps the most controversial order for me. I think Thierry Henry has the strongest case (I'm not sure how David Villa would overcome him). The French must be very close to the top in terms of skills.

    I wouldn't be too sure about the inclusion of Karim Benzema (I never rated him on a very high season despite having him on the periphery many times). It's hard for me to see him over Ruud van Nistelrooy or even the 21st century version of Ronaldo (2002-2005 mainly), even considering his regularity.

    Miroslav Klose seems to me a bit weak option despite his international efficiency and Gabriel Batistuta loses almost all his general dimension without the 1990's.

    Edinson Cavani is a very notable absence for me and Adriano would be an interesting case about peak performance and consistency (Radamel Falcao's case is a less dramatic case in this regard, perhaps also Dimitar Berbatov).
     
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  17. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    A top 100 may be very complicated (I'll try to do it when I finish my own analysis season by season in more detail). My probable top X without order according to that from the 1999-00 and 2017-18 season would be:

    1. Lionel Messi
    2. Cristiano Ronaldo
    3. Zinedine Zidane/Ronaldinho
    5. Xavi/Thierry Henry
    7. Gianluigi Buffon
    8. Andrés Iniesta/Zlatan Ibrahimovic

    From 9 to 20:

    - Steven Gerrard
    - Kaká
    - Frank Lampard
    - Pavel Nedved
    - Manuel Neuer
    - Andrea Pirlo
    - Arjen Robben
    - Roberto Carlos
    - Andriy Shevchenko
    - Luis Suárez
    - Francesco Totti
     
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  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Interesting to know what are the pros for having Ricardo kaka but no neymar junior
    What would your season vs season analysis be?

    Neymar hasn't "taken over big games" as kaka did in literally 1 game and a half.
    The first half vs Liverpool 2005
    The away leg vs Manchester United 2007

    Outside of this is there anything left for neymar to tick off his checklist to overcome Ricardo kaka
     
  19. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Basically:

    Continental Class A

    At the South American level, the very best players (top 3-5, perhaps) in the 21st century from this continent (considering that South America is no longer on par with the best European leagues and stellar players in Europe in terms of competitiveness).

    At the world level, those whom in a season maybe I would not place them among the best 20-25 players in the planet, but they would make my list of about 40-50 honorable mentions.

    World Class B

    At the world level, those whom I comfortably place among the best 20-25 players on the planet or had a very high chance.

    World Class A

    At the world level, those whom I comfortably place among the best 7-10 players on the planet or had a very high chance (even possibly top 3).

    World Class A+

    At the world level, those whom I comfortably place as the best player in the world or dispute that label very thightly or with an advantage over others in a top 10.

    Legendary Class

    Those who must make up a handful of the best performances in a season of all-time.

    In comparison:

    Kaká

    2002 Sao Paulo & Brazil: Continental Class A (20 years old)
    2003 Sao Paulo & Brazil: Continental Class A (20 years old) (mid season)
    2003-04 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class A (21 years old)
    2004-05 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class A (22 years old)
    2005-06 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class A (23 years old)
    2006-07 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class A+ (24 years old)
    2007-08 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class A (25 years old)
    2008-09 AC Milan & Brazil: World Class B (26 years old)
    2009-10 Real Madrid & Brazil: Continental Class A (27 years old) (affected by injury(ies))

    Unfortunately for him, I think he was not back on top later because of his physical problems.

    Neymar

    2010 Santos & Brazil: Continental Class A (18 years old)
    2011 Santos & Brazil: World Class B (19 years old)
    2012 Santos & Brazil: World Class B (20 years old)
    2013 Santos & Brazil: World Class B (21 years old) (mid season)
    2013-14 Barcelona & Brazil: Continental Class A/World Class B (22 years old)
    2014-15 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A+ (23 years old)
    2015-16 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A (24 years old)
    2016-17 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A (25 years old)
    2017-18 Paris Saint-Germain & Brazil: World Class B (26 years old)

    I have not done my analysis of the last season (2018-19), but due to his injury problems I suppose it's even doubtful that he came to the World Class B.

    On the other hand, although I think they both had one World Class A+ season, I get the impression that Kaká's top is the most brilliant in subjective terms, at least the most dominant and stellar (although that impression could be because in the best of Neymar he had more competition in his own team of Messi at his last very top season).
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #70 carlito86, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    I think you may have to review this particularly his last 2 seasons for Barcelona were of higher class than his 14/15 campaign (inflated by tapins fed by Messi)

    dearman(a poster you respect)has neymar in the first half of 2017/18 as supreme world class(a level above anything kaka reached -even in the 2007 CL)
    He also recorded the highest recorded dbs calcio rating in ligue 1 history

    Sometimes reviewing footage is useful



    I personally( and it isn't a view shared by many )see neymar in 2017 as a higher quality amd more consistent performer than prime Ronaldinho gaucho
    https://www.quora.com/Is-Messi-the-best-playmaker-in-football
    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/2358084/ronaldinho-better-than-lampard


    Kaka was widely criticised for his 2008 and 2009 ballon dor placements (the accusation was he was benefitting from the Brazil bonus and his actual performances didn't warrant such a high ranking)

    Even in 2007 he was demonstrably outclassed by adrian mutu and francesco Totti in serie A
    https://www.xtratime.org/forum/156-world-football/210639-kaka-vs-totti.html

    The best kaka at league level was most likely his debut season for Milan at 21 years old
    His best at champions league level is 2007 where he carried his team to the title(he generally had solid CL performances between 04-07 maybe the joint best champions league player with Ronaldinho during that time span)

    Only 2003/04 serie A campaign is worthy of A rating

    2006/07 CL is A+
    Everything else should be B or less

    Neymar should have straight A ratings for his last 3 seasons at Barcelona.
    And A+ for 17/18 till his injury (was a top 2 undisputed player along with Messi during that timespan-ahead of even KDB)
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018

    Neymar

    2009 Santos & Brazil: not ranked.
    2010 Santos & Brazil: Continental Class A (18 years old)
    2011 Santos & Brazil: World Class B (19 years old)
    2012 Santos & Brazil: World Class A (20 years old)
    2013 Santos & Brazil: World Class A (21 years old) (mid season)
    2013-14 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class B / World Class A (22 years old)
    2014-15 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A (23 years old)
    2015-16 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A (24 years old)
    2016-17 Barcelona & Brazil: World Class A (25 years old)
    2017-18 Paris Saint-Germain & Brazil: World Class A+ (26 years old)
    2018-19 Paris Saint-Germain & Brazil: World Class A (27 years old)

    That is my opinion.

    For me Neymar was better in 2012 and 2013 than in his first season at Barcelona (he felt the pressure and had a much narrower role too that it took him time to adapt) but he was at the level of peak Alexis Sanchez (check whoscored ratings of Alexis Sanchez in his three first PL seasons) and ~ at the level of peak Gareth Bale (the Best Player in the Premier in 2012 and 2013) and he also had a good WC that season too:

     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #72 Tropeiro, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    There is no such thing as Brazil bonus, dude. There is a Dutch bonus if something, like now with three dutch players in the TOP10 when they are not even the best players of their own team (neither in the UCL or Eredivisie): https://www.voti-fanta.com/p/statistiche-fantacalcio-champions-league.html

    Kaka was voted the best in the world in 2007 for his performances in the Champions League (not for the Italian League). 2008-2009 he wasn't considered a TOP3.

    Kaka was a player who played normally well against good teams and had good CLs in some periods, but he was never consistent on a daily basis that's a fact, while at his peak he may have had some better performances (against TOP15 teams) than Neymar, overall Neymar will earn you much more points and improve your team much more than Kaka, that is my opinion.
     
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    2013 - 2018 Guadian Men's TOP100

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TNK0kOMMV32xtanrDNdiZeRDFMbxBLoZ0POl22BQwwI/edit#gid=3


    About the level of Leagues,
    This is according FM Genie Scout 12 (Based 2011)
    Show Spoiler

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    We can make the average of these leagues, but it seems that the BR League and the French League was ~ of the same level (somewhat below the TOP4 Leagues), that according FMs Database's and also according the site Soccerverse (http://soccerverse.com/ranking_table).

    Saying this, Neymar has been the most dominant player playing in Brazil - and probably in South America - in the last - and at least - 20 years.
    *just check his ratings of Bola de Ouro Placar.

    Neymar stats at Santos and Brazil

    [​IMG]

    If the BR and the French League is more or less of the same level (hypothesis), then in much less dominant team (Santos) he had the same average (Goals+Assists per match) in 2012 than in the current season 2018/2019 (14 Goals + 7 Assists in 17 Matches vs 15 Goals + 7 Assists in 17 Matches).

    and he also had a good ratio in the Brazilian NT too (9 Goals, 9 Assists in 12 Matches plus the same Goal contribution than in 2016, 7 in 7 Matches).

    https://i.imgur.com/ixyrY0l.jpg

    In 2012 for Santos,
    In the 17 Matches he played, Santos had a 9W,5D,3L record (62.74% Points won), in the 21 he didn't played, Santos had a 4W,9D,8L record (33,33% Points won)
    http://www.playmakerstats.com/xray....=2254&key=player_in_team&filter_match=in_with

    http://www.playmakerstats.com/equipa.php?id=2254&epoca_id=141

    He also had a 43 Goals + 19 Assists out of 102 Santos Goals in these 47 Matches in 2012. 60,78% Direct Contribution. That is excellent in no matter where you are playing. Eden Hazard never had the same rating or the same involvement in the French League or with the Belgium NT (with the same age).
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You're just another first class brazilian liar and manipulator (Bolsonaro will ruin your country hopefully), with a dubious source there.

    De Jong and Van Dijk were the overall most important and influential players of their team.

    It's well established journalists and 'experts' are more favorable to dutch players than the masses and internet pseudo professors like Peru FC, comme and Dearman (e.g. germany playing total football before holland did, MvB below five of his contemporaries, and other crap claims).

    De Ligt, I agree and said myself, is not top 10 material. But there are many, many more overhyped Brazilian dudes with political perks, who are talked up as the next pelé before they have kicked a single ball in a league match. That's just never the case for northern european players.

     
  25. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Analyzing and coverting to numerical data the different prizes and surveys carried out between the seasons 2000-01 and 2017-18, I have ordered in a table the 100 best classified players accumulating those 18 seasons. I have preferred to point it out that way and not in the order of 1 to 100 due to the minimal differences that sometimes occur, for example, between the qualified in position 31 and the classified in position 46. In green, there is no discussion , are the great dominators of what goes of century. In blue, the 21 that would follow them, not for my opinion, but for that numerical treatment of existing data in journalistic sources.
    Finally, in yellow, the rest to the 100th place.

    por categorias 2001-2018-001-001.jpg
     
    Perú FC repped this.

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