2018-19 Development Academy

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by TheFalseNine, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. STANDFAST

    STANDFAST Member

    United States
    Jun 8, 2018
    Edwards also swims and runs track at his school. Its a private 3A school so easier to be a sports God in one of those districts but impressive nonetheless. Playing for Solar allows that freedom. Couldn't pull that off at FCD. Surprised Smith is allowed to play basketball.
     
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  2. Runhard

    Runhard Member+

    Barcelona
    United States
    Jul 5, 2018
    I know the 02 Goalie at FCD DA Seth Wilson was really good at bball at a younger age but think he had to choose when he joined FCD. He could probably have played college bball as well.
     
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  3. STANDFAST

    STANDFAST Member

    United States
    Jun 8, 2018
    I am slowing my roll on all the Solar players. They just don’t have the body of work vs the same opponents as some of the MLS teams. Having three good matches in playoffs vs non MLS clubs, barely beating FCD with 10 players (and no Pepi, Sealy or Reddic) and beating Seattle with none of their good players isn’t a national team resume. FCD played against the top LIGAmx academies multiple times, River Plate, Dynamo Zagreb, West Ham, Toronto at full strength, 5 other top 15 DA teams and Mexican national team.

    Solar played....no one good at full strength.
     
  4. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    #1279 bpet15, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    I don’t think anyone is going to disagree with you, but you have to give them credit. FCD was widely regarded as the best U17 team before they started promoting players and Solar played them close every time this year.

    I don’t think anyone will say Solar is the best U17 DA team, but none of us can debate the fact they are DA Champions. In a tournament, anything can happen, and it did. They are a solid team with some good players, some even fringe YNT caliber.
     
  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #1280 Clint Eastwood, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    I don't disagree. But Solar can only play the teams and players that were put in front of them.

    As I said earlier in this thread, Solar finished 2nd to FCD in the frontier division regular season. They weren't an underdog in this competition. They came in as the 8th seed overall. They were seeded in the same area as the LA Galaxy, who were the 7 seed. They were much higher ranked than Seattle (21st seed) and Mondreal (14th seed). These games they won during the playoffs weren't upsets (except the FCD game). If FCD was the best team in the U17 division..………………...then they only beat them in 1 out of 4 tries. [One FCD win, one Solar win in extra time, and two draws).

    Its why even I, as an FCD homer, thought Solar had every chance to beat them in their quarterfinal matchup. Would FCD have won if Wilson hadn't gotten red-carded? Who knows? Maybe? And it doesn't particularly matter. He did get red carded and that's just the way it goes.

    What I will say is this.
    If we look at the U17 (or U16 previously) division...………………...almost every one of the previous winners has produced a number of outstanding professional players. The winners have been the best MLS academies over the last 10 years. Loaded, RSL, NYRB, FCD, LAG rosters. Seattle last year. Let's not pre-judge these Solar players. I'm sure we can find somebody downplaying the Houston Texans victory two years ago. Well, one of those players is now at Bayern Munich and a starter at the U20 World Cup. Another was an option for the U20 World Cup and getting playing time in Scandinavia (Cappis).

    The question for these Solar players is a difficult and touchy one. Where do they go from here? Is staying at Solar the best path for their development? Or like Richards and Cappis, do they need to make a move to increase their opportunities? The goal isn't to win DA titles. The goal is to develop into professional soccer players.
     
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  6. pwip

    pwip Member

    Jul 10, 2004
    Dallas
    We're in the YNT board and we see things through the HG, YNT lens but it's not touchy at all.

    Jonathan left for Norwich City before the finals
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/jonathan-tomkinson-at-norwich-city.2104796/#post-37929853

    Yes, several MLS academy players moved on to USL & senior debuts but regardless, this shouldn't happen. Little clubs like Solar have 1/7th of the resources and still produce quality players and result.

    I think as a NTX soccer fan we are happy for FCD homegrown success but that is not without criticism. FCD is not soccer community friendly. They've always been "we take your players" philosophy. There recruiting reflects their scouts' demographics. What's the problem with that? You leave a lot of local talent on the table. There are longer path to pro options for non-FCD youth players if you want it bad enough. It's always been there. (Keaton & Jonathan; Blaine) Solar players will have college options and the fact they took it to the top MLS academies and YNT fronted clubs.

    I just enjoy when little clubs like Solar ruins the USSF narrative, MLS academies and their YNT id process.
     
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  7. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    #1282 bpet15, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    The other thing to take into consideration, and this is a pretty important detail is - a team like Solar at the U17 level is pretty much the only team that could give FCD a game. If FCD takes Solars best 2/3/4 players, all of a sudden there isn’t a competitive match them the entire season, exception being the odd one or two.

    It’s a double edged sword for FCD and some of the Solar players. One could argue the Solar players have a developmental advantage because of the amount of competitive matches they play is considerably more than FCD does.

    I’ve spoken to FCD staff, parents and kids about this before. Their thought process is they get the best competition day in and day out at training, which is fine. Even if that is true, it’s not a good situation for them to train and compete during the week for playing time at the weekend, then go smash someone by 5 goals. Admittedly, this is a bigger issue at the U13, U14 level than it is at the older levels, but still a problem none the less.

    I think the fact that the talent is still somewhat spread out helps FCD and Solar at the U17 level.
     
  8. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I think of it as good competition. Solar being good pushes FCD. It pushes the Texans, Lonestar, San Antonio, RVG, whatever Austin Bold is going to do and pushes Colorado and the other teams in the frontier division. I hope even if FCD sucks up the best talent that there's more talent out there in DFW than they can play. That's good that other kids who don't want to join FCD have opportunities. It's good that Solar is scouted enough that their CBs and Striker are getting European looks.

    If MLS will open up HG restrictions then I think a lot more kids will have options beyond FCD and Solar in the future. Just like Chris Richards made the most of his move to the Texans, in the future I hope the next generation of kids like Ferri, Sparks can move to other MLS sides or USL sides and start their pro careers.

    In the meantime playing at Solar is hardly an impediment. Non-DA clubs need something to hang their hats on as an enticement to kids and parents that they can provide a path to a pro future. Tomkinson like Ferri shows that's true and the future of US soccer is better for it.
     
  9. HoustonUnited

    HoustonUnited Member

    Jul 27, 2009
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    DC United
    I know this wasn't your point, but FC Dallas's philosophy "should" be to take the best players from the non-MLS academies

    The non-MLS academies are typically expensive pay to play academies. They also don't offer a pathway to the pros. Their main goal is to win these youth tournaments. If they have a 16 year old who is dominant at the U17 level, would they push him up to the U19 level to challenge him against older players?...My guess is probably not, their goal is to win these tournaments so they can recruit better players and charge higher fees to come and play for a "winner" that plays in top tournaments/showcases

    FC Dallas offers a free academy, who's goal is to develop professionals. If a 16 year old is dominating the U17 level, they will challenge him at the U19 level...then the USL level...and then possibly the MLS team. They want to do well in these tournaments because they want their players to learn to compete...but are they really worried about winning meaningless youth trophies, at the expense of player development? of course not.

    Its also good for the players families because it removes the expense of the pay to play academies.

    So it makes sense for the players, and the MLS teams to vacuum up the top players from the surrounding non-MLS clubs, because they offer opportunities that the non-MLS clubs cant provide.
     
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  10. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    #1285 bpet15, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    I don’t necessarily agree with this and find it a bit short sighted.

    “Pathway to pro” is nothing more than a buzz word that MLS clubs have latched on to when starting their Academies. It has become meaningless and quite honestly, tiresome. There are many pathways to becoming a pro and players can achieve pro status many different ways, at many different clubs. If they have the talent, the work ethic and most importantly someone close to them with good contacts, you don’t need to play at a MLS Academy to go pro.

    I agree with what you are saying with an MLS club wanting all the best players. The bottom line is the number of “pro” prospects in non-MLS clubs is pretty big. Not every kid wants to become a USL or MLS pro, some aspire to go elsewhere. If you’re a player at a MLS Academy at the moment, going to Europe at 18 is nearly an impossibility with the TC/SP stance MLS has now made.

    I would argue that many of these kids that are at MLS Academies would be just as good if they were at certain non-MLS Academies. The biggest difference is the notoriety they get at a MLS Academy, which is all you need sometimes. MLS clubs don’t have a magic pill, all they have is a direct path to USL or MLS, both are levels are young kids should be aspiring to better than.
     
  11. HoustonUnited

    HoustonUnited Member

    Jul 27, 2009
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    DC United
    You make some very valid points, and I agree with you, that if a player has no intention on playing domestically...the TC/SP rule will make that much more challenging

    I also agree that there are a lot of non-MLS academies that have developed a lot of professionals. Here in my hometown, I'd bet the Houston Texans have developed more pros than the houston dynamo academy (largely because the dynamo dont really care about youth development, but that's a whole different topic)

    I'm also sure there are some great coaches at both the MLS and non-mls academies... what I am saying is that the difference is the MLS academies have an incentive to move players up a level and challenge them at older age groups, or even the USL level. The non-MLS academies have no reason to move players up, their main goal is to win youth tournaments which I think hurts player development. Especially for kids who grow early and are physically superior to their peers.

    For example, by the time Ricardo Pepi turns 18 he is going to have several thousand minutes at the USL level playing against older players and grown men (he might even be getting solid MLS minutes by then)..if he was at a non-MLS academy, he would be playing for their U-19 team just overwhelming his opponents.

    I'm not saying you cant become a pro at a non-MLS academy...I just think the opportunity and development path is much better with the MLS acadmies
     
  12. STANDFAST

    STANDFAST Member

    United States
    Jun 8, 2018
    My points were not about head to head match ups between teams and the results or who has a better chance at a pro career. Lots of non MLS academy players are good enough for overseas careers.

    With the new push toward signing youth players to USL/ homegrowna many MLS academies will never be competing with their best 11 in U-17/19 and opposing DA players won’t have to deal with them in matches. In evaluating a players long term performance, who they train and play against is an important evaluation tool. U-17 Concorde Fire opponents are not analogous to River Plate, Pachuca, or Valencia opponents or USL/MLS pros.

    I am sure Solar is relishing shoving their success in FCDs face for years of being treated like a 3rd tier club. I am pleased that they won and maybe it will make FCD have to work a bit harder in the future to recruit and retain players. Plus it gives DFW players a legit option.
     
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  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    People act like Solar was a "little engine that could."
    Dallas Fort Worth is the 4th largest metropolitan area in the country with a loaded talent pool. Dallas CAN'T hoover up all the talent. There's too much of it. And of course Dallas goes out and recruits from all over the place to bring in the best talent, pushing some local kids out of their consideration.

    The FCD U17s have a youth international (whether Mexico or US) at essentially every position. [Some of them have advanced now like Pepi, Sealy, Redzic, Rodriguez, etc..] And people think they need to be EVEN more greedy? If I was a kid in the region I'd go to FCD if I was a starter. I'd rather be a starter at Solar than a reserve with Dallas. Why would Bailey Sparks go to FCD when at the start of the year they had Ricardo Pepi in that position? [I'm not saying he would. I'm just saying the position was spoken for.] People talk about the CB on his way to Norwich. Well...…………..FCD has two international caliber CBs. Carrera is currently with Mexico, and Che has gotten USYNT calls (and is reportedly trialing in Germany as we speak). Why would Jonathan Tomkinson go to FCD? I don't understand. He had a great opportunity to be a starter a key player at Solar.

    Now, I'm as greedy as they come. If these youngsters want to come to Dallas, I'd welcome them with open arms. I also have no problem with Dallas behaving like a bully. You get Reggie Cannon, Paxton Pomykal, and company when you steal these young talents. No issue with it. Schalke came in and bullied FC Dallas, taking Weston McKennie from us. What did we get in return from Schalke? Zippo.

    By definition, kids at Solar HAVE to go somewhere else to pursue professional soccer. There is no endgame at Solar. Whether its FC Dallas or somewhere else, they have to leave. 100% of them. By definition.
     
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  14. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think everyone is overlooking that FCD has now copied the NYRB system where they don't just turn a player into a pro. Being a pro like in the early FCD HG years isn't close to good enough anymore. Now they need to be pros that can have careers at big clubs. NYRB sort of pioneered that in the US with MLS using their second team to great effect. Adams can go from RBNY II to RBNY to RB Leipzeig and not miss a beat. If Solar can't offer this to one of their players the payer is being disadvantaged. Now FCD has McKennie, Richards, Cannon, Pomykal and perhaps Servania, Cerrilo, Reynolds, Roberts, Pepi etc who aren't going to be satisfied with just be a pro. They are all wanting to jump to where Adams and McKennie are. The bar has been raised. Winning a youth title is great but the best players on those teams can recognize their best counterparts were moved up and are on a path that will be very hard for them to achieve if they stay where they are.
     
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  15. Brotheryoungbuck

    Jan 24, 2015
    parts unknown
    I listened to the TDS podcast on my drive today and they predicted that Barca Academy will probably scoop up some of these kids I’m other non DA teams. Which as soon as I heard I thought it was pretty likely.
     
  16. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Don't you have to be at an MLS Academy to be signed as a Homegrown which is becoming the dominate way for MLS teams to sign teenagers?
    You can't sign with MLS if you are not at a MLS academy so all non-MLS academy players only have Europe and USL which is fine but as a player I want options not limitations. Any countries first division youth academies are considered the best way to train for teenagers. Not the only way just the best way.
     
  17. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Its just obvious that the resources that MLS teams can offer prospects is so far advanced its not close. From being free, to the facilities to the top coaching, to the top teammates, to the International travel and tournaments to USL teams to national team exposure. Its not even close.
     
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  18. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cam Lindley won a state championship playing basketball. I played him in pickup a few times in college and he could shoot well enough to play D3 basketball, with his height obviously being a limiting factor.
     
  19. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    #1294 bpet15, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    Again, I don’t think anyone can argue with what you are saying, but a debate could be had about the quality of player being produced.

    Before MLS Academies ever came along, we were producing players like Dempsey, Donovan, McBride, and many others that played at a high level in Europe and many that could walk into our current NT XI. I see no evidence at all that MLS Academies are producing a higher caliber of player than we were 20 years ago. I don’t know why that is, maybe someone has some ideas.

    Just my opinion, but while we may be producing more pro players (our own league has a lot to do with it), we aren’t necessarily producing better top end talent.
     
  20. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    I think the better top end talent will come when a much larger cross section of young players are honing their technical skills to a greater degree than at present. DAs can develop the tactical and physical parts of players' games, but can only work with the technique that players developed at the youngest ages. Some argue that technique can always be improved, but if so only marginally so. For example, I've actually seen games where Zardes' first touch was better than it usually is, but he just can't produce that on a consistent basis. The die was cast many years ago, unfortunately.
     
  21. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    You don't see the current U20 and U17 pools, which are unquestionably the deepest ever by a long shot, to be evidence that MLS academies are producing higher caliber players than the non-MLS system was 20 years ago?

    Are you suggesting that ODP, state cups, and tournaments where champions played four or five games in two days was a better way to develop players than the system that is currently in place (which has hardly been in place long enough to even begin making conclusions about)?
     
  22. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    I agree with you that the caliber of player coming out of the DAs and onto the YNTs is much better than the players we produced before the DAs reached a more professional level. I remember coming out to watch Freddy Adu as a 13 year old, playing with the U17s. Except for maybe one or two other players (e.g., Jon Spector), the rest of the team were meh, with some very substandard skillsets. Thankfully, as we saw with the U20s and also the U17s most everyone looked like they belonged. However, we can no longer measure our current players against earlier versions of YNTs. We're competing against the rest of the world, and so many countries are now producing highly skilled players. That's the standard we need to meet, and we can't just be content on having shown improvement from days past.
     
  23. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    No doubt, but the bar has to be set based on our own history. That is the only way you can have a cohesive perspective of how we have progressed with player development over time. Comparing how we stack up against other nations provides a snapshot for that moment, but it does not provide any sort of real perspective on the course of player development. Taking several of those snapshots provides a good assessment, but it is because that assessment really is just a comparison of the types of players we were producing at different times. Of course the test that matters is how we stack up in real time against other nations, but the only perspective that matters in the judgement of how our system has progressed over time is how we compare to ourselves.
     
  24. bpet15

    bpet15 Member+

    Oct 4, 2016
    I didn’t communicate that the way I intended. I think we are currently producing a much deeper talent pool. I don’t think we are producing better top end talent.

    Completely subjective opinion that can’t be validated for at least another 5 years.
     
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  25. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    You can improve strength, often speed, but not size or quickness.
     

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