What USWNT roster is better, 2015 or 2019?

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by McSkillz, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    ANGEL CITY FC, UCLA BRUINS
    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I personally thought we were way better this time around than 4 years ago. I certainly believe there would have been no way we would have beaten all those top 10 teams if we had the 2015 squad but maybe I'm wrong who knows. What do you guys think?
     
  2. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that this time around there was never a fear of IF we could score. You always felt/knew a goal was coming (VAR helped). Of course, I had the constant fear this time around that we could give up a quick goal too. Although, really, I had that fear in 2015 too.
     
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  3. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    2015 has a better starting XI, other than Morgan not good on finishing it's pretty much flawless. 2019 has a weaker defense line and nobody was monster like Lloyd in 2015.

    But 2019 has a better squad depth, unlike 2015 has too many old veterans.

    The only time I was TRULY scared was the German PK, we dominated the game before and after, but THAT was a huge moment.
     
  4. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There seemed to be a perception going into this tournament [based in part on the number of goals that the team had given up in the friendlies throughout the first half of this year] that the 2015 team was stronger defensively and that the 2019 team was stronger offensively.

    That being said, both teams ultimately gave up the same number of goals throughout the length of the tournament (3 total).
     
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  5. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    I think we only tied Sweden in 2015, so yeah, you arent wrong.
     
  6. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    It is a great question to debate. The teams the USA beat in 2019 in the knockout rounds were stronger than the ones we beat in 2015 other than the Germany team in 2015 (which, save for the Johnston near disaster, was a game in which the US had the better of play). The overall picture of the 2015 team is warped because of 16 minutes of bombardment in the first half of the 2015 final, the most watched game in US history. I have to think about the question. I don't know that I can form an opinion yet.
     
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  7. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not really the question asked, but I think its worth mentioning that from all that the players (and also Ellis) have said, I think there's definitely more camaraderie among this group than in 2015. In 2015, there was rumors of some players upset with the play and having to have team talks at the beginning of the knockout stages. There was none of that this time around. Multiple players have talked about how close and tight this group is, and it's apparent also in the videos of the team as well as the way they talk about one another. That doesn't necessarily mean the roster is better, but I think it does mean the team is better.
     
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  8. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which may explain why Ellis made some of the decisions she did on the final roster. Chemistry and willingness to sit without stirring things up may have been most important to her.
     
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  9. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #9 hotjam2, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    I follow the international scene as well and I firmly believe that the opposing teams were somewhat weaker. two reaons for it;

    1) the heavy turnover of coaches(with the quality falling among the newbie coahes of EN, FR. & GE)

    2) too many of the world's best strikers were missing from this tourney; Hegerberg, Harder, Pajor, Katoto along with some good mids, like Vero, Fishlock Sosa(mvp of the Spanish League.

    on the other hand, Lavelle proved to be a relevation, giving us the classic, playmaker, that was mssing last time & Ertz so much better of a defensive mid than Morgan Brian(I feel both these players offset the one impact player that was mssing, Cheney)
     
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  10. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Perhaps someone could line up the two rosters side-by-side for purposes of comparison. There's obviously substantial overlap, and my guess is that (on an individual basis) one might sometimes prefer the younger version of the same player.
     
  11. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Member

    Dec 29, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Indeed, I think both Krieger and Long were on the team because they helped with chemistry, although Krieger really stepped up and played well in the final. As much as I wanted Short on the squad, maybe she didn't mesh personality wise with the team.
     
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  12. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    If we're going by the eyeball test then I choose this team. They dictated the rhythm of the matches a lot more. Back in 2015, up until perhaps the semis, they often looked disjointed, playing seat of your pants soccer. Back in 2015 other teams more often seemed to be able to dictate the tempo or style of the match at times.

    Although outside back wasn't thought to be a position of depth for the USWNT and with Kelley's recent health issues...the corners were a bit of a question mark coming in...but in my opinion overall our OB's were much more dominant than in 2015. That's not to disparage the 2015 tandem, as Klingenberg impacted the offense and made a few heroic plays. O' Hara had a big goal and some great moments too four years ago. But her play now seems more cerebral to me. She's not just a force of nature anymore. But this WWC Dunn and O'Hara just suffocated the opposing teams throughout. Dunn really put paid to the notion that she was a weak link, stifling the other teams constant probing down her end. Kelley likely chalked up more miles on the pitch than other player in the tournament.
     
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  13. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    What happened to Klingenberg? Why wasn't she called?
     
  14. BlueCrimson

    BlueCrimson Member+

    North Carolina Courage
    United States
    Nov 21, 2012
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Klingenberg isn't fast enough for the style of play that Ellis prefers from her outside backs.

    It seems like it, but nope. Both Sauerbrunn and Dahlkemper logged more miles than O'Hara. And that's just on the US team.
     
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  15. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    Stats source? What about distance run/minute?
     
  16. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Where to see the distance covered?
     
  17. BlueCrimson

    BlueCrimson Member+

    North Carolina Courage
    United States
    Nov 21, 2012
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIFA's site has stats for every WC player, including distance covered (in KM, of course).
     
  18. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nice thanks.
     
  19. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    O’Hara actually had less field time than I thought because I forgot she rested vs Chile. 492 min vs Dahlkemper’s 622. However O’Hara did log more distance than Sauerbrunn despite playing fewer minutes (Becky played 540).

    But when calculated as distance per minute O’ Hara is well ahead of both. However among regular starters on the team she finished *only* second....behind Rose Lavelle.
     
  20. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    As much I love Becky Sauerbrunn and think she's the best defender in USWNT history. I doubt she could keep the form next year.
     
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  21. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very well said. I think this is an aspect of the team's performance for this WWC that has gotten too little credit. Some opposing teams tried O'Hara's side, some tried Dunn's side, and the two of them were solid rocks. There have been many posters who questioned Ellis' having converted them to outside backs (the questions came when O'Hara first was converted and have come more recently with Dunn whose conversion is more recent). I think those doubters have been proved wrong.
     
  22. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good post. The other thing to consider is that the 2019 team had a much more stable XI. Though there were rotations & injuries, Ellis' preferred XI never wavered: 4-3-3: Naeher; O'Hara, Dahlkemper, Sauerbrunn, Dunn; Lavelle, Ertz, Mewis; Heath, Morgan, Rapinoe.

    In 2015, we were 4-4-2, but there was a lot of switching of the lineup. Back was the same, but Lloyd was CAM thru most of the tourney and was moved to CF for Wambach/ARod for the SF & Final. Thos got Holiday to a more attackin CM role with Brian as the CM partner. Heath/Pinoe got stabilized as WMs (O'Hara, HOR, and Holiday (I think) spent time there).

    Ellis was searching earlier and things just exploded late.
     
  23. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Five of the players were the same in both WWCs - Morgan, Heath, Rapinoe, Ertz and Sauerbrunn. So, half the team is not much different, even allowing for Ertz playing different positions. And, Sauerbrunn in '15 was better than in '19.

    I see Brian in '15 (for the games she played) as the equal of Ertz in '19 and Ertz in '15 as the equal of Dahlkemper in '19. That means another position is a wash.

    Naeher was close to Solo's equal (Solo's misjudgment of the lofted ball in the Germany semifinal nearly cost the US the WWC).

    That leaves the outside backs and two/three midfielders to compare.

    Dunn should get the nod over Klingenberg (who did play well in '15). The reason is that Dunn had to play against tougher competition. She is the superior athlete and I am not sure Klingenberg could have equaled what she did (especially since Dunn could also advance attacks). Also, none of the three goals the US gave up came on attacks from her side, another factor in her favor.

    O'Hara was stronger on attack than Krieger but two of the goals the USA conceded came off attacks on O'Hara's side. Close to a wash here. Plus, Krieger subbed well for O'Hara in the final in '19.

    So, Lavelle and Mewis have to be compared to Lloyd and Holiday. Lloyd had the greatest knockout round of any player in a WWC, which somewhat exceeds Lavelle's stellar (even Golden Ball-worthy) play. Mewis was not better than Holiday in my opinion and often was absent. Horan might have been better than Holiday, though.

    So, slight nod to '15 starters.

    The difference is probably the '19 team's depth. A bench of Horan, Lloyd, Press, Brian, Pugh and Krieger, plus some of the younger players, probably was deeper than the '15 bench.

    The '19 team did beat tougher competition. Could the '15 team have done that? The team that was on the field for the last three knockout games could have, perhaps. So, I see the two teams as relatively equal.

    It is a fun question to ask.
     
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  24. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Oh, and Ellis was a better coach this time around. If the Colombia game referee had not carded Rapinoe and Holiday so that Ellis had to play Brian against China, we probably would have lost in '15. Her choices worked well here in '19.
     
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  25. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    You have chosen to compare the teams by breaking them down into their constituent parts. Basically a symmetrical line item analysis by position. Even though the tactics, formations, and scope of responsibilities may differ a bit between them. Although I do think these comparisons are interesting and relevant to the discussion.

    I prefer to see the team as a singular whole. I think the 2019 team was greater than the sum of it’s parts to a greater degree than 2015. As a salve to my increasing excitement back in May I rewatched all the knockout matches plus the match vs Australia from 2015. Strictly going by the eyeball test that team, up until the semis, struggled often to dictate the terms and tempo of the matches. There were times when there were uncharacteristic communication breakdowns between Solo and her CBs. Apart from the final the free kicks and corners were sub standard. Perhaps it was the turf but errant and misjudged passes were far more common. It seemed like the team had a collective lobotomy prior to the final because up to that point the there was a noticeable lack of combination play. The back line and midfield often monotonously passed the ball looking for width, but often looked out of ideas when it came to moving the ball vertically when there was any sort of body traffic ahead. Also the 2015 team seemed to make more mistakes in bunches. There were several times when dangerous counters were the result of compounded mistakes made by different players. The rough patches in the 2015 WC were a lot rougher than the dicey stretches of play in 2019.


    The 2019 team just looked more in control from the opening whistle in each of the matches. This was a confident team. That was my one major worry. That they might get a little too confident. Even when the matches were tight you felt they could get a goal as needed. Or conversely salt away the minutes when necessary. Also I think crossing the ocean and winning the Cup on European soil is more impressive than winning next door. The international spotlight was brighter. The media microscope and scrutiny more intense this time. Both the team and environment seemed to have more edge. I guess you’ll just have to weigh up these points vs whether you believe I’m displaying recency bias (or still in the throes of a victory hangover)!




    I would certainly dissent with this assessment. Probably not surprising given that, as I’ve said before, Ertz would have been my Golden Ball winner. Also unlike MB Ertz is a true DM. This isn’t a diminution of Brian’s critical role in the latter stages of the 2015 WC. She helped bring needed structure and stability to the midfield. And she was a better player then before the injuries.

    If there is one player that epitomizes the collective identity of this 2019 team and the way it plays then it’s Julie Ertz. She has that pivot move where she’s on a swivel to outmaneuver the opponent. Either to protect the ball, move an opposing player off the ball, or create space for a teammate. Her nickname in this household is the Windshield Wiper. Opponents do not like to take her on and this is evident in how they often pull up or hastily dispatch the ball in her presence. She has an enormous impact on both maintaining and acquiring possession of the ball. Much more so than Brian has ever done. But then they are quite different types of players.
     
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