Why no Vieri? Blanc, Rai? Skammelsrud? Paulo Sousa? About Francescoli, I understand a last nomination in '96 due to the Copa Libertadores (I watched, it was very emotional and i was happy for Him) but at this point, in '97, he was 36 years old and about to stop his career. It's true that he has 12 goals in the Clausura... but he never scored as much in Europe apart from in his first season. So my question is : how is he more worthy to make the list in '97 than during the years for wich you have probably chosen to leave him aside (because it must have occured)? Looks like he was better here than during his years in the calcio. One of the best in the world again when coming back to River aged 35. éhé. In all honesty I ask you and in all honesty you tell me : don't you think this is odd?
I think not clearly. Since the return to Serie A of Fiorentina (1994-95) until his last season before going to AS Roma (1999-00) this must be his worst season in Florence and his numbers I think also reflect it with a clear decline in this period. The ratings are not benevolent with him neither. He was rated by DBS Calcio as 136th in Serie A and Guerin Sportivo did not qualify him among the best 45 foreign players.
The only case of these that made me doubt was of Vieri, but I do not find it so clear, consistent or prolific. Any particular reasons for the others? Blanc, Raí and Paulo Sousa seem to me that they clearly decline this season. It's difficult for me to analyze Skammelsrud. I know he was awarded as Norway's best midfielder (or something like that) and had his merit with Rosenborg, what reached the quarterfinals of the UEFA Champions League, but I don't have him so particularly highlighted and I doubt about his national competitive level.
So you think that Romario, Edmundo, Salas, Finidi, Di Livio, Giovanni, Polster, Wosz, Martins, Sergi... were better than Vieri in '97 and that Francescoli did not decline?
First, it would be good to clarify certain points: For the 1997 list Francescoli's period of analysis at club level is that of the 1996-97 Argentine season (Torneo Apertura 1996 and Torneo Clausura 1997), as far as the period in which he was 34-35 years old (maybe there is a time mismatch). Then, he was certainly prolific in terms of goals. He scored 7 goals in Torneo Apertura and 12 in Torneo Clausura playing as a free-role forward (I'm not sure how many from a penalty kick) but I would highlight even more his quality in the conduction, creativity and opening of spaces. In Torneo Apertura seems me River Plate shows a huge level based mainly on the offensive quality of Ortega and Francescoli, then I think his prominence is remarkable in the Torneo Clausura playing as support for Salas (very apart from scoring more goals) and forming an excellent tandem with Gallardo. His participation in the 1997 Copa Libertadores is unfortunate. As reigning champions they didn't play the group stage and went directly to the last 16 to play against Racing Club, but 2 surprise draws and a penalty shootout left River Plate out (Francescoli scored at home and away). That aside from his stellar role in the Recopa Sudamericana. To be honest, despite the results, I think that River Plate was the best team in South America at the time and Francescoli was arguably the best player in that team at his age. I also remember that by then he was considered one of the best veteran players ever in Argentina, so it does not seem strange for me to include him in the honorable mentions (around the top 90). I could not answer with precision the comparison on his level then and that he had in Serie A. My own analysis in this thread starts from 1995 (precisely when he returned to Argentina), so I have not done such a deep analysis between 1990 and 1994, when he was in Italy (@Tom Stevens made these lists and, in fact, he does not mention him among the honorable mentions while playing in Italy, unlike when playing in Argentina and France). I would not say it's so odd (at least from a superficial glance). In Italy Francescoli did not play in teams that could really tempt a title in such a high level league and I can perceive/suppose how his figure could be absorbed among so many other stars in a better scenario. His first 2 seasons with Cagliari he was close to descending and his last with Torino, as far as I know, he was not so remarkable (and even pale). His best season there (1992-93) does not seem so great to me either. I do not know if it is very accurate, but I think it is very possible to notice/feel that the best Francescoli was not seen or did not fully explode in Italy, but in Argentina in the 1980's and the last stage of his career in the 1990's and in France, apart from his international performances. By the way, Francescoli was part of the Equipo Ideal de América by El País (an Uruguayan newspaper) in 1995, 1996 and 1997 consecutively (at the doors of his retirement) and was 1st, 2nd and 6th for the South American Player of the Year award in the same years (the last probably affected by what was the second half of 1997, the period after his 1996-97 season).
Yes. Maybe not very clear for some cases (especially against non-offensive options), but I don't think Vieri is such a high choice (of course, not as much as it was for the next season, 1997-98, when he is by sure in my top 23). In the 1996-97 Vieri scored 8 goals in 23 appearances in Serie A, 1 goal in 5 matches for Coppa Italia, 1 goal in the extra time of the second match of the UEFA Super Cup when there were 6 goals difference (he did not start in any game) and 4 goals in 8 matches of the UEFA Champions League. A total of 14 goals in 37 matches (0.37 goals per match), which is a bit far from being impressive, even in Italy. Internationally he scored 2 goals in 7 matches (against Moldova and Russia). In think in that season Juventus showed a better level in defense and midfield than in attack and I think Vieri went to Spain because Juventus preferred to aim for a most solid option as partner of Del Piero (arrived Filippo Inzaghi) deciding not to compete with the Spanish offer (although here there is a certain degree of assumption). About Francescoli, I think I could point to a decline if I compared this season with his peak performance in a tournament, but I feel very comfortable in pointing him out as one of the very best players in South America at that time (1996-97), very close to the end of his career.
One other obvious example: Jaap Stam was on his way to become the most expensive defender in the world (summer 1998), a designation that would last for three full years (in a booming transfer market) and he immediately lived up to expectations. He was player of the year in 1996-97 by both the press and his colleagues. And yet he isn't fit for a honorable mention while someone like Frank Verlaat is? (admittedly, Verlaat was also named in the 1994 Rethacker book on the 1000 best players - have to complete this still)
So that is the question, the bigger the honourable lists are, the less fair it is for the players who don't make it. And the less easy it is to justify the presence of the players who make the cut above the players who don't. 23 for the main list can already be too much or... the problem is also about having the same capacity of places for the main list every year. For that year, I want well to continue discussing about a couple of names for example though : Vieri, from memory, was exploding in '97 and already looked like the future big asset for Italy at the CF position, was already seen as a player with the potential of a world beater. He received no less than 9 votes at the Ballon d'or that placed him in the top-10 along with Sammer (only 4 votes, in the first ranks... what is better between their two results, I wonder... looks like a sort of tribute to the old libero imo... anyway I'd consider to have both them, or none, but not just one of the two). Blanc : signed to Barça after he was contacted by Cruijff. The day Blanc signed with Barça, Cruijff was not the coach of Barça anymore... on the same exact day. Back to Marseille, Blanc, for example, makes two times the ESM team of the month in November-December (then in January-February '98 btw). Not saying that I'd have his name written down on my list for this specific year, but if it's about having 175 players, I mean why not. Even 90 players.
Stam is a good case. I had not noticed his nomination as Dutch Footballer of the Year and I can understand how he was out of my radar (I have little information about Eredivisie and Dutch cups until 2000's, so in these years of the 1990's I have judged them more directly by European competitions and international performances and PSV Eindhoven only played the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup and was eliminated by Brann in the second round). I have not seen him this season, but I suppose this reference makes him a likely very good candidate for honorable mentions. At least between central defenders: Top 23 Fernando Hierro (Spain & Real Madrid) Jürgen Kohler (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) Lilian Thuram (France & Parma) Honorable Mentions Tony Adams (England & Arsenal) Celso Ayala (Paraguay & River Plate) Fabio Cannavaro (Italy & Parma) Ciro Ferrara (Italy & Juventus) Paolo Montero (Uruguay & Juventus) Noureddine Naybet (Morocco & Deportivo La Coruña) Matthias Sammer (Germany & Borussia Dortmund) Olaf Thon (Germany & Schalke 04) Frank Verlaat (Netherlands & Stuttgart) Stam looks like a good candidate like that. I'll add him until more information. Is there another obvious example?
First, yes, it is true, while the list becomes more extensive it is more complicated to find clear differences, although I think with around 90 (23 + 65, 66 or 67 HM's) it is still possible to establish certain sensible and solid levels (although there are always complicated cases in the margin). I move on that number because it is more or less the average with which Tom finished his work previously until 1994 (without being fixed). Then, apart from what was mentioned about Vieri, I must say that I must assume that him gained a lot of momentum for the 1997 Ballon d'Or because his first months with Atlético de Madrid (he was voted for the first time in the ESM Team of the Month in April 1997 (playing for Juventus) and 3 times while he played in Spain, including in October 1997) and his successive goals (including 2 hat-tricks): La Liga x2 vs. Celta de Vigo (27-09-97) x1 vs. Real Oviedo (05-10-97) x1 vs. Mérida (15-10-97) x3 vs. Real Zaragoza (18-10-97) x1 vs. Real Betis (01-11-97) UEFA Cup x1 vs. Leicester City (16-09-97) x3 vs. PAOK (21-10-97) So yes, I could notice that explosion in 1997, but in the 1997-98 season most of all. On the contrary, I suppose Sammer's votes are much more influenced in his 1996-97 season, suffering in part from an injury, but still very good rated for being decisive in the decisive matches of Borussia Dortmund in a relatively good campaign in Germany and giving the bump in the final of the UEFA Champions League. So I think their votes in the Ballon d'Or come mainly from different lapses (what usually happens because what I think it is an irregular way to set time parameters in the voting for this award at the end of each year). Time is a similar case for Blanc. Indeed, he returned to France to play for Olympique de Marseille and was chosen in the ESM Team of the Month in November and December 1997, that's all about his 1997-98 season, so it does not belong to the 1997 list here, but to the 1998 (he's in my top 23 in the next list including the World Cup). Only in Spain (1996-97) Blanc was not voted in any ESM Team of the Month and had a complicated season between injuries that didn't allow to take hold as expected.
Sammer is easily one of the worst Ballon d'Or winners in history. He had typically only one ESM team of the month selection that year (december 1996, played only two games that month, vs Portugal and Steau Bucharest). One of the guys who surpassed him in 1995-96 for ESM? Blanc (among others). At the euros he had two or three good to very good games, but also an awful one against Italy (passed an Italian directly in the feet while under no pressure at all, then goalkeeper Kopke made the foul, only a soft yellow for him, and Zola missed the penalty for the win) and in the final really very 'lucky' to stay on the field after deliberately tripping down the last man. I don't make this up. Cannavaro was at least the clear-cut 'man of the match' in both the semi final and final of the World Cup.... Easily the best man on the field in both matches.
This is season is weird yet again, because after Ronaldo there isn't anyone who really deserve to rank on the podium. A bunch of players really close to together, none outstanding. Can't comment much about Zola, however there isn't much to suggest Suker should be ranked third. He might not even be a Top 3 Real Madrid player that season. https://pdfhost.io/v/ZTenOQVDJ_9667esppdf.pdf Hope this works. The ESM seems tough to read, I'll try to fix it later.... - Real didn't play in Europe that season, there was no International tournament other than CA. So looking at league only is sufficient. - Suker doesn't make the MD team of the year and 5 RM players have higher grades then him - Average Marca grade: Redondo: 1,30 RC: 2,05 Raul: 1,80 Seedorff: 2,00 Suker: 1,28 Mijatovic: 1,34 Hierro: 2,35 (alright this one is just really inflated. whoever does this is in love with Hierro) Again not really setting himself apart - Stats from the Marca summary: 24 goals, but 6 PK. 20 asistencias (I don't know the certain definition of what is counted or not) For comparison Raul has 21 goals, 0 PKs and 25 asistencias - Don Balon ranks the overall season all RM players. This isn't based on individual averages, just the whole impression for the season There are 4 players who get a 9 (Raul, RC, Hierro, Seedorf). Suker gets an 8. - Don Balon team of the season: Suker makes the 2nd XI. There are 4 RM players in the 1st XI. - He is mentioned among the "Ases", however not the first choice yet again - ESM Team of the Month selection look pretty good, everythings close together though Who would I rank 3rd overall or as best RM player? Not sure, certainly not Suker though.
That's really fair. Suker's choice seemed increasingly unsustainable. Of course, that leaves me in the great predicament of choosing a better option from among several similar. I've thought about how to solve that discomfort in the top 3. I think it is clear that no case is differentiated over the others with notoriety (with the exception of Ronaldo), so I could change the point of view and choose who I find most spectacular (from the large group of escorts) and that could be probably Roberto Carlos, who surely did not have a pair in his position, he was a top player in La Liga (2nd for EFE Trophy behind Ronaldo) and he went through memorable moments that could have defined his legend (including his curled free-kick in Tournoi de France playing for Brazil). As a 3rd option I think we could discuss it like that between Raúl and Zidane. Personally the French seems to me something more masterful (maybe it's because I still saw Raúl as a future promise to exploit). Zidane also has in his favor the sum of his continental success (reached the final of the UEFA Champions League) and won a very well valued award (Serie A Foreign Footballer of the Year). They are not exactly my best arguments, but when in doubt maybe they are the only ones who could give me better options. Could this top be more satisfying?: 1° Ronaldo 2° Roberto Carlos 3° Zinedine Zidane It would be almost completely similar to the 1997 FIFA World Player of the Year. By the way, thank you very much for the extra information.
I also suppose it could be more accepted to add Fernando Redondo (recently cut) instead of Romário in the top 23, it is not? On the other hand, Roberto Ríos really seems to deserve the honorable mention.
I actually thought about who might deserve the 2nd place and honestly thought from the RM players it could be Roberto Carlos... Looks like I'm not the only one with this idea. I agree with cutting Romario, not sure if we need more Madrid players. Who else would you have as a borderline top 23 choice? I haven't really looked into the other country, mainly just Spain.
The international games maybe pushes it to Roberto Carlos as opposed to his team mates I guess (Raul, Hierro, 'the professor' cs10). Doesn't have *that* many goals and assists for a (very offensive) wing-back though.
That's what I had in mind. However on the other hand - would have many people considered Roberto Carlos the best/most important player on the team overall (over Raul mainly) back then? I don't think I did. Just because of their positions/roles.
In this poll they asked some questions to all 1st/2nd division players in Spain. Crazy how big Michael Jordan was if he could win a poll among professional footballers against Ronaldo.
I think that is a fair point - ESM recognition (in multiple months) might have been easier for him to achieve because of that even too. I'm not the best to comment from real-time memories on La Liga of that era though - I'd be well clued-up for Premier League, a bit less so for Serie A, and less than that for La Liga (but even less for the Bundesliga from week to week). I know the swerved (I'd say that rather than curled but I instantly knew what Peru referred to) free-kick for Brazil in the Tournoi did draw a lot of attention though for sure, around the world I guess even. But those ESM recognitions all arrived before that of course. I noticed as I mentioned, after watching Real Madrid vs Barcelona from late 1996, that an on screen caption appeared asking people to vote in a Ronaldo vs Raul comparison. It's hard to know how ratings would tally with our own individual opinions when we didn't see the games I suppose, but for sure I've used them as a guide (also when available for the threads about the 1960s to 1970 period). So I know that after watching that game I gave Suker a 7.5 or 7.25 and R.Carlos only a 6.5 maybe (he did set up Suker's goal though with a free-kick cross into the box). Meanwhile Raul a 7 maximum, and Hierro an 8.5 even. But how typical those performances were, what actual ratings were from Marca, Mundo Deportivo etc for that particular game I don't know (it's possible someone could find that maybe, but even so it'd be one game - and obviously a majority on here could or could not agree with my different suggestions...or be somewhere in the middle). Hierro did receive a standing ovation and chants from the fans when limping off near the end (not with a bad injury), but again I wouldn't know if that was mainly for that display, because he was a symbol of the club, because he'd been great since the start of the season or whatever. I suppose on Tom's original method, we are looking at Intl games for calendar year 1997, not 96/97, but I guess Suker has a slight edge on Raul at least on that basis (but it's not a major part of the season). I suppose the difficulty in terms of being sure about writing Suker off (for top 3) is would we also use ratings to do that (against our first ideas) for a Gerd Muller or Ruud van Nistelrooy, to an extent (with good but not top ratings in 89/90) for a Van Basten, for a Romario in 93/94 maybe etc. In other words do goalscorers sometimes just keep scoring and have that 'top value' because of it over a season, but without great 90 minute performances (although Suker did have the capability like vs Denmark in Euro 96 so we can infer he wasn't close to that every week in 96/97 surely as I think that display was highly rated by all sorces pretty much) that receive top rating after top rating....? I was originally unsure of Suker as my 3rd (perhaps considering Zidane or Bergkamp anyway) without thinking about the ratings, but I suppose it's just difficult to know how to gauge things (but I understand your view certainly and it makes sense to look to the ratings...and after season verdicts which might at least be a bit less persuasive for him than a RVN in 01/02 or 02/03 for example too). The only question over Zola at 2 (for my 'vote' - I don't try to say others have to agree) is the lack of games overall I suppose, but probably I don't find that decisive, and even find it impressive that he made such an impact without a full season. His PL ratings (via DBS Calcio - but they don't show on the main results page and have to be looked for under his profile, because of the transfer)and excellent and the best of the league...and he probably played better in the FA Cup and had some great assists/goals in that too. Bergkamp was showing form to say he was pretty much, or nearly in the same sort of class that season though I'd agree. He also has very good ratings for the PL.
No, Raul was clearly the poster boy of Spanish football (though generally rated somewhat less high outside Spain) and still only 19 for the entirety of the season (born in june). There were other prolific, and technical, forwards in Mijatovic and Suker around though, in sense of importance. Raul did have a strong number of assists this season (as opposed to 2001, when he was #2 in BdO, scored just as well as in 1997, and reached his peak in general international estimation).
Maybe Capello including Redondo in his ideal XI is also at odds with Redondo's 96/97 La Liga ratings too a little bit (it could be looked at that way anyway - given the other options like Desailly, Albertini etc too he had for central midfield from his career)? Again I don't know if my verdict of 7.75 or 8 for the Barca game was reflected by real ratings or not (and again it'd be one game). Those Spanish ratings are also on a different (more limited) scale than most countries used of course, but I don't know whether there is a clear reason why that should favour defensive players (or if the Spanish journalists were particularly favourable to defenders in general with the ratings or whatever - German ones do seem to be for both defenders and GKs if anything of course). That poll about top players in Spain, the world, is something though in terms of public verdicts in Spain anyway (not sure if it was from the end of the season, or still in 1996 or whatever). Figo not there, but certainly commentators were at the time saying 'the Barca of Ronaldo and Figo' in the game not just retrospectively. Suker wasn't in the list but Mijatovic was I noticed (in terms of club season it seems as if 95/96 was maybe better for Mijatovic though in Spanish football and maybe there would be some carry over).
Thanks - yes, he was rated well in that home game on the 7th December then (the one I watched). In a way that makes it less likely there'd be other games where I rate him well and Spanish sources don't though (maybe!). It'd be interesting to see all players if you had them. I'd guess if anything the decisive result may bias the verdicts a bit more towards Real players than I had it (especially when using only 4 possible grades maybe?), but I'm not sure of course.
Yeah, I have it. Can't post the file right now though. End of the week. IIRC Hierro was the highest rated across the board, followed by Seedorf/Raul/Redondo/RC who are pretty even.
Ok cheers. Yeah, not too surprising (although in theory an example of a Suker/Roberto Carlos 'difference of opinion/verdict' compared to my ratings out of 10 indeed I suppose...and likewise the others against Redondo - whether that's in part because they have such a limited choice of ratings I don't know but I certainly started to wonder whether 8 was too high for Redondo when I initially gave him that so maybe I could even concur with less than 7.75 without quibbling too much and therefore easily see how a 7.5 or even 7 could be awarded - I think you don't have Don Ballon marks out of 10 for that one though). Sometimes ratings can differ a bit without massive disagreement. Other times I suppose we can disagree more clearly - I was thinking I'd rate both De Boer's higher than France Football had (Ronald relative to other Dutch players certainly; Frank relative to their scale as well as they only gave him 3) for the game vs South Korea from 1998 when I looked through it yesterday. I also don't know whether it's an advantage to be watching years later (knowing the result so with no suspense, but purely with the aim of rating players and perhaps like in that case just one team and concentrating on the actions of only 11 players) or not.