MLS needs to start caring about the USMNT again

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regarding labor laws, MLS can't treat American citizens any differently than green card holders, because that constitutes national origin discrimination. I know some leagues require a certain number of playing minutes to be set aside for players who are citizens, but MLS can't do that legally.

    MLS could conceivably lower the number of international slots. But, if a soccer player has a green card, MLS can't discriminate against him. For MLS roster rules, the green card holder has to be treated the same as an American citizen.
     
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  2. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Lowering the number of foreign players would lower the quality of the league, defeating the purpose of exposing US-eligible players to decent competition.

    Our players have to earn their starting spots. If that's not happening, the problem is with academies and formation at the base level.

    Coaching and refereeing are subpar too, and need a revamp ASAP. Try to attract top coaches first, the top players will follow. That should be the proper order once you have money.
     
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  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    If you really believe that MLS adds no value to the USMNT, I’m doubtful that MLS can add a lot of value simply by undertaking my two suggestions and adding a limit of foreign players.

    That’s too big a chasm to fill. You’ll need a bridge as you’ve set the battlements on fire.
     
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  4. There are plenty. Just read the English youth thread. In fact, the posters there cheer when a talent chooses to move to the Netherlands as these young players get time in first team Eredivisie competition, which is considered far more valuable than what those kids have as an alternative in England. And not only the Netherlands. Germany and Belgium are also destinations for them. Those kids started to look with different eyes to those opportunities when they saw that 18 year old players got full time Eredivisie matches to play with Vitesse (guys from Chelsea on loan) and how enthusiastic those guys were about their stay across the Channel.
     
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  5. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously??? https://www.chelseafc.com/en/teams/on-loan-players

    Out of all of their ENGLISH players on loan, exactly one is with a non-English club.

    There's exactly 5, FIVE, English players playing abroad in one of the big leagues:https://www.skysports.com/football/...aying-abroad-jadon-sancho-is-not-the-only-one
     
  6. I mentioned those English guys that were there last seasons from Chelsea. Mason Mount was there last year. He chose to join his idol Lampard in England instead of another year with a loan to one of the top 3.
    Several have chosen to leave the epl clubs in favour of Dutch clubs. PSV picked up a talent iirc from Tottenham, who refused to sign a contract as he expected more chances at PSV.
    Daniel Crowley (21) is in the Eredivisie since two years etc.
    You might be adviced to visit the u21 thread in the England forum. It will show you the sentiment.
     
  7. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/english-abroad.331613/page-57
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-paucity-of-english-opportunity-thread.2066572/page-43
     
  8. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    If the claim was the best youth....

    Out of the current under 21 squad for the Euros

    Clarke-Salter was on loan at Vitesse
    Reiss Nelson was on loan at Hoffenheim
    Jonjoe Kenny has just joined Schalke on loan.

    6 were on loan in the Championship.


    Add Sancho.

    It's not many. A lot more go on loan within England.

    Others have been bought by Premier League clubs such as Maddison and Gray.

    Foden and Wan-Bissake have broken through at their clubs.

    It's almost as if if there are multiple pathways.

    The real top ones are in the full squad.
     
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  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS could lower the # of INTL slots but increase the quality of the foreigners in the league a la China....the foreigners that are in MLS now aren't THAT good. I imagine 5 "MAX DP level foreigners" with 5 INTL slots would be better than what MLS is now, imo....8 INTLs with many of those not even DP quality.

    Imagine a team with 5 giovinco level talents on it...would whip MLS'ass....AND make sure that more of the potential domestic players who are MLS quality are actually on the field.
     
  10. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would also require a substantial increase in the Salary budget. FIVE max level players will eat up more than HALF of the salary budget. That doesn't exactly leave a lot of money for domestic talent.............

    This is currently fantasy land. Five Giovinco level talents ($7M/year) would cost a team approximately $35M. That's not realistic in the near or not so near future of MLS.
    Have you watched the Chinese Super League? It's not very good..........and the BIG reason the highly talented foreign players are going to China is the obscene amount of money they are being paid, and not the competition or trying to improve their own game.

    You want better US players? It starts with coaching, investment in youth academies and USL "B" teams for playing time, and greater incentives for developing, signing and playing home grown players. There's no magic pixie dust, or money tree out back at MLS HQ that's going to seismically change the US Soccer landscape. These things take a lot of: time, money, and patience. Everyone forgets that the professional soccer landscape in the US was essentially non existent from 1986-1996. People also conveniently forget that over half of the teams in MLS are less than 10 years into this thing called Pro Soccer, let alone youth development. There is no fast forward button here that's going to suddenly turn MLS academies into the second comings of Ajax, La Masia, Southampton, La Canterra (Bilbao), etc. overnight. Those academies took DECADES to build.
     
  11. FormerNo10

    FormerNo10 Member

    Juventus
    United States
    Dec 13, 2018
    Great point. It made me immediately think of Keaton Parks
     
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  12. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with better coaching, scouting, etc. But, there is still an issue with trying to get players onto the field. If players don’t play, they don’t develop.

    Part of the issue too is that there’s somewhat of a gap between the reserves and the bench of the first team.

    That’s why I argue that why don’t we expand the US Open Cup to have a group format to guarantee 6 games a year for these players... spaced out to be 1xmonth. This way they can prove what they’ve got and/or stay sharp when called upon.

    For instance, for Atlanta this would be my typical US Open Cup roster

    GK Kann
    RB Gallagher
    CB Parkhurst
    CB Pogba
    LB Ambrose
    DM Goslin
    MF Kratz
    MF Carleton
    RW Meram
    FW Vasquez
    LW Pereira
    Bench: Moore, Wyke, Vint, Hernandez, Conway, Wild, Williams
    ...I could bring up Larentowicz, Shea, Escobar, Villalba, etc too just depending on circumstances.

    That’s better than the reserve team but not the full roster either. This gives the best performers from the USL an opportunity too to say that they belong.
     
  13. The claim was almost none go abroad, which is untrue and the numbers are rising.
    Restricting it to the U21 team makes the number by definition low in comparison to the real outflux.
     
  14. This!
     
  15. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    No. The claim was exactly what I said - I bolded the relevant part for you.

     
  16. I quoted jaykoz3, but I understand you responded to the reply of adam tash.
     
  17. upload_2019-6-18_14-10-27.png

    Anyway, even within the limits of U21 you posted more than the only one jaykoz mentioned.
     
  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah theres way too much of a gap between USL and MLS and for the players not getting time in MLS but too good for USL....how in the world can they stay sharp? How in the world can they keep up with players that are getting time?
    maybe for a time they can...but inevitably it is a huge disadvantage in terms of breaking through into MLS...even if all players were treated equally and salary didn't come into play when deciding who gets playing time. let's face...the teams who spend big and miss do not do well in MLS....the internal competition for playing time within MLS rosters is not equitable to all players. the bhig budget players get chance after chance after chance while the minimum budget players often do well in limited time but fail to convince regardless.....

    Perhaps another idea would be to really pump up USL....start spending big on USL and get it as close to MLS as possible so that it really is a viable place for players.....? as of now....not sure that it is what it needs to be....
     
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  19. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thoughts on expanding the Open Cup into a group format to offer more games throughout the season?

    My thoughts are that it such an excellent opportunity for these fringe players to make their case. Every time the games from the Open Cup comes around, I think this would be nice to get these players more games to prove they can play at the next level.
     
  20. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Is there really that big of a gap that players who can't get time in MLS are too good for USL? I've not seen enough USL games to be a good judge, but USL teams aren't generally blown out by MLS teams when they play in Open Cup and sometimes they spring upsets. Also, I don't remember seeing an MLS bench player going to USL and just lighting that league up. Has a guy who can't get MLS game time ever led USL in goals? Or assists? I mean, if we have guys who are too good for that league, shouldn't they be tearing it up? Just curious as it sounds pretty logical to me that guys get their game time in USL if they're not able to get time in MLS, and I'm not sure why they can't improve there.
     
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  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Where is the money supposed to come from?
     
  22. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Alvarez, Vasquez and Keaton parks all just lit up the last round of US Open CUp and get basically zero time in MLS.....

    USL and MLS aren't integrated enough....Christian Ramirez and Miguel Ibarra were killing it in USL but no MLS teams would spend on them...it comes down to politics ....

    I think there's a bunch of playerrs that are in MLS - good enough for MLS - that wouldn't and don't benefit from USL time....stats aren't going to paint the full picture...its about quality of play....and level isn't about stats.
     
  23. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I guess in my mind if a guy is too good for USL, he should dominate USL; not just in a game here and there, but almost every game out should be obviously one of the best players on the field. I only threw out the goal scoring and assist stats because for me, if a forward is too good for a league, he should be racking up goal totals. Other positions, of course, are different. But, I sometimes struggle with this or that player is too good for these leagues that they don't dominate on the field.
     
  24. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I think the answer is, it depends. For a while, the Galaxy had a set of players (Jose Villarreal, etc) who were significantly better than the average USL player but turned out not to be good enough to be starters in MLS. From what I've watched, mid-20's bench players in MLS are the equivalent of very good USL players.

    When you get to U-20 players it's harder to make a comparison because of their inconsistency. They can be world beaters one moment and then make boneheaded mistakes the next. You can forgive the mistakes in the USL but not in MLS.

    The other thing that makes it hard to compare is that the USL will make players with moderate skill look better than they are. A fantastic finisher who needs space will light up the USL but won't find the space in MLS. A decent finisher who can create his own space can make a career in MLS but won't look exceptional in the USL.

    Finally, the USL is changing. Right now there isn't that much difference between the teams at the different levels, but as the league solidifies I expect the top teams to play a higher quality game.
     
  25. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Magic money tree
     
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