Referee Shortage/Referee Pay

Discussion in 'Referee' started by DefRef, Jun 12, 2019.

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  1. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    cinepro repped this.
  2. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    High school pays very very well. But if I had to deal with all the stuff that others do in HS (ole boys network etc) then I wouldn't do it.
     
  3. SoccerRefNova

    SoccerRefNova Member

    DC United
    Mexico
    Mar 27, 2018
    But what is the solution? Is it drafting parents into the ranks? Is it implementing a zero-tolerance policy?

    We keep hearing about all this crazy stuff, but what is there to do about it? Do we have any possible solutions? Cause if the issue is that society wants to challenge authority, we're ****ed.
     
  4. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Move to a different country. This who we have become.
     
  5. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I do not see referees quitting because parents/coaches/players yell, with some random exceptions. These days, anybody who becomes a soccer referee has played the game and may have even been one of those yelling at the referee, so they know what's going to happen sometimes.

    At least in our state, 60% of the referees are under the age of 19. They're doing it for the money, frequently at the urging of their mother. We even had to alter our software to accommodate the number of parents signing up their kid for entry level classes. (Previously, it assumed that the person filling out the on line form was the one registering.) They quit because they graduate from high school and have other things to do, like studying in college, boy friend/girl friend (check one), real job, relocation, etc.

    I have propounded the theory that supply and demand are still valid concepts when it comes to referees. Administrators don't want to hear that. If you pay more, you will have more referees, period. There are the issues, of course, of meeting demand during peak periods (e.g. the big local tournament) since no one is going to become a referee and only work one or two weekends a year. Another issue is that many leagues and tournaments talk a lot about needing referees, high level referees, but they don't actually want to pay for three officials, so they settle for one, and they don't want to pay enough to be competitive with, say, college games, because that's where those highly skilled referees are working, instead of U-12 games on Saturday afternoon in the fall. Or, as one of my coach friends (and I do have friends who are coaches) likes to say, "It's all about the Benjamins."
     
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  6. SoccerRefNova

    SoccerRefNova Member

    DC United
    Mexico
    Mar 27, 2018
    Well, it's a solution...I guess.

    In the 10 years I've been doing this, from rec to NCAA, it's the shouting that gets to people. Our intramural program in college had a 20% retention rate for refs year to year. When asked, most of the people stated "It's not worth getting shouted at for $10/hr (best paying job on campus) at 10PM on a Monday night". I'd run into these same kids washing dishes or flipping burgers for $8/hr, and they hated the idea of reffing. Because at the end of the day, you aren't getting cursed out by kids in the dining halls for your entire shift (not every day anyway).

    I did a HS game where at the end the center ref said "**** this, I got a wife and a newborn. I'd rather be there then listen to these dickheads." It's been 5 years and he won't go back to HS games.

    The rec games I work with HS kids, they hate it because the coaches and players are jerks. But they go because they need the money.

    I don't disagree. I get an e-mail where they want "experienced" refs for a single U14 EDP game. You aren't getting a Grade 6 to run a line for $35. You aren't getting me to go out for one game unless I need it to count for the bonus. But I'm not convinced that if you up the pay people will stay.
     
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  7. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    UK had the "Respect" program a few years ago. Didn't get much traction from what I could see.
     
  8. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    I know I've said this before, probably a hundred times, but it starts at the top.
    Kids watch on TV, the players surrounding referees and carrying on like a pork chop. The fans follow suit and back their players.
    Trickle down can happen very quickly.
     
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  9. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Make Athletics Gentlemanly Again.
     
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  10. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    We are always gentlemanly in athletics, which is the term, outside the United States, for track & field. :)
     
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  11. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soccer

    Varsity: $124

    Junior varsity: $105

    Middle school: $87.50


    For that kind of money, I could handle a little verbal abuse!
     
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  12. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Soccer is not the only sport suffering an officiating shortage.

    High school football is facing a huge shortage of qualified officials especially in the football mad states like Florida, Georgia, Texas and California especially as those states are having growing populations which leads to more schools and thus more games and more officials.

    You think abuse is bad in soccer, you should and hear and see what the football officials have to go through. In soccer as an AR, you have about maybe 10 players plus a couple of coaches complaining every now then. If you get tired of them you can eventually throw them out.

    In football you have about 50 players plus an army of coaches screaming at you and there is zero culture and history of throwing coaches out for abuse.

    Up until a couple of years ago there wasn't even a rule saying that if a coach gets two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties in a game he will get automatically ejected.

    In all of my years watching professional and college football, I don't think I've ever seen a coach ejected from a game.

    Abuse is bad in soccer, but it's bad in other sports and we actually have some tools and a history of dealing with abuse. Other sports don't and those sports mean much more to many more people.
     
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  13. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like @SCV-Ref said, in all sports, it starts from the top. Kids see how professional and college athletes act on television, and they think it's OK to act the same way.

    I have actually used this line in the past with youth soccer players, "When you get paid to play this game, then maybe you can get away with that kind of behavior. But it's not happening today."
     
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  14. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    That's about what we get for two games.
     
  15. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Yeah, Long Island skews everything. Luckily for me they make the pay rates for ENY very good.
     
  16. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    Ha...you say that but obviously you've never met my Mother-in- Law! :devilish:
     
  17. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They also cause high re-registration fees!
     
  18. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I am also a baseball umpire. It is an old, old boys network association. I umpire to get out of the house after a long winter, and my games are weekdays at 3:45. I am a soccer official first and baseball a far distant second.

    To give you an example, I am in my 15th year as a USSF official, but my 6th in HS soccer and baseball. In HS soccer, I have done state championship semi’s and finals and conference semi’s and finals. In my 6 years of baseball, I have done 7 Varsity games, because of the way the assignments are structured.

    Because of umpire shortages, I did almost half my sub varsity games by myself. Doing baseball solo is much harder and way different than doing soccer by yourself. It’s harder mentally, because no matter the level of play (and sub varsity baseball is completely hit or miss) you have to see and make calls on every pitch for up to 3 hours. I would gladly do HS sub varsity soccer by myself over baseball by myself.

    Our HS soccer association has suffered tremendous losses in numbers in the last 3 years. We are down over 50. I work games 6 days a week. I think the most common reason for dropping out in HS is the physicality of the job. It’s not easy running a dual. And when you can’t do it any longer, it is quite obvious to the coaches and administrators and word filters back that you can’t give Referee Joe that varsity game anymore. And when the former big shot Varsity guy gets shunted down to sub varsity, he quits.

    I do work games with a handful of teachers. However, the pay to COACH (no experience necessary) far exceeds the pay to referee. Teachers would be perfect to recruit because of their availability time wise, but I know a group of them who make money tutoring after school then coaching or reffing.
     
  19. Pelican86

    Pelican86 Member

    United States
    Jun 13, 2019
    I'm a teacher and a ref (3+ years doing youth games, 1 year of working HS games). I made way more money refereeing HS than I did as a JV soccer coach. I probably spent a little bit more time refereeing, and I had more expenses in terms of traveling to games, but the better money and flexibility more than made up for it. Admittedly, I've only worked at private schools, and if I were coaching at some of the public schools in the area I might be making more than I am as a ref. I'd wonder what the hourly pay would come out to, though--I'm sure there are some schools where you can schedule a 15-game season and practice twice a week, and others where you'd probably play 30 games and practice every single day.
     
  20. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    I totally agree that a large percentage of refs are done after HS. The trick (IMO) is to find a way to hold on to the good ones. I am lucky enough that a high percentage of my refs go to UCONN or other local state schools and they are still physically present. I talk to my "good" refs and try to convince them to keep reffing when they can. Sometimes that is only on the 1-2 days a week when they don't have afternoon classes. And for the ones that are going away to school, I offer to find out who the local assignors are. Whatever it takes to keep them in the game.

    On the supply/demand side, I have done surveys of all the local clubs to find out what they are paying refs. And I used that info to eventually convince 2 clubs and a big tournament to increase ref pay to keep up. So, in my case, while the administrators definitely did not want to hear it, they did (eventually) listen.

    And finally, you have to keep replenishing the pipeline. I send the new ref certification info all of our coaches. Whenever a parent tells me their kid wants to become a ref, I tell them the story of how my son said the same thing, and instead of just signing him up, I signed up to. Have actually gotten a few adults to join up.

    Bottom line - ain't no ref shortage in my area.
     
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  21. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    The abuse aspect does ALSO have an effect. As an example, we had an excellent ref who is starting goalie for high level BV program (so not a shrinking violet), and state admins were enthused about his reffing future and were actively mentoring him.

    And then he had a rough game and got harassed and followed into the parking lot. And even though a board member immediately came to his rescue, and we "prosecuted" the team and parent involved, and we counseled the ref and had a mentor present at his next game, he still stopped reffing within a month.

    Perfect example of a ref saying, screw this nonsense, I don't need it.
     
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  22. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Yes but, you shouldn't have to. Also it's not just yelling, there's assaults, there's battery. Articles keep coming out about referees getting pummeled, referees occasionally dying. It's not right, and we can help put a stop to it.
     
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  23. SoccerRefNova

    SoccerRefNova Member

    DC United
    Mexico
    Mar 27, 2018
    By doing what?
     
  24. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    By not doing what we all have done and have seen other referees do, capitulating to coaches and players who act out. Don't look the other way, don't try to be the 'nice guy.' Send them off when they deserve it. Ask, tell, dismiss.


    Everyone has been at a game or has reffed a game themselves where they gave a coach or a player WAY too much rope. We are also responsible for creating these monsters.
     
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  25. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    I am actually looking forward to being able to card youth coaches this fall. And definitely will be encouraging my ref crews to use this tool when needed.

    Really hoping the shock of getting a card will mellow them out at least a little. And give the clubs the impetus to come down on them to get them to behave.
     
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