The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yet many P/R supporters claim teams in the same area prove teams never go away despite there not necessarily being common threads between them. The argument can't have it both ways.
     
  2. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I would prefer not to argue for some sort of position I don't actually believe, because of some totally unrelated thing that I prefer.
    I don't actually think your support for the Rapids means anything less than support for any other soccer team and I think the ownership model has nothing to do with legitimacy. I do think the ownership model has nuance that doesn't exist elsewhere, but I have no opinion about it one way or the other.
    @bigredfutbol mentioned changing business models that work. I specifically avoided MLS because its business model makes it hard to apply to the specific discussion.
    That is my position here.
     
    HailtotheKing and JasonMa repped this.
  3. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Columbus Crew.
     
  4. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Indeed, which is why allowing performance on the field of play aka pro/rel is such a great way of organizing professional sports leagues.
     
  5. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #21180 M, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
    Coming out of Administration aka Chapter 11 isn’t failing. To use American parlance it’s reorganizing.

    Rangers went bankrupt and a new club was formed. I haven’t seen anyone on here claim differently except a few of the anti pro/rel zealots who try to use them as an example of something they’re not.
     
  6. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Which just goes to show you what a crock of shite the single entity model is.
     
  7. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I haven’t heard anyone on this thread make that argument. Phoenix teams often do have a common thread, btw, such as playing at the same stadia and playing without a break.
     
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  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Counterpoint: the league itself did not collapse.
     
    HailtotheKing and JasonMa repped this.
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To throw out an example I was reading about earlier this morning, would you consider Newport County to be a continuation/phoenix club of the original? Different ownership, different name, different location (by 80 miles to start).
     
  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Tranmere Rovers -who won the National League promotion playoff last season - won the League Two playoff this season. So much for the claim on here a few years ago that their relegation from the Football League would be a death knell for them.
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Nor does a league in which an individual team disappears
     
  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    They’re a Phoenix team.

    They played 80 miles away in England on being re-formed due to the Wales FA trying to force them to play in the Welsh pyramid. When that threat went away, they started to play in Newport.
     
  13. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I made no such claim.
     
  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Not much of a counterpoint then.
     
  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So pro/rel works pretty good in England.

    How about that.
     
  16. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You've talked yourself into circles. YOU claimed that the failure of the two Florida teams was an indictment of single entity. I pointed out that the league survived in spite of all the problems it was having in the early 2000s. I said nothing about other league models, I merely pointed out that the one data point we have is that the league survived.

     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, it is.

    But the closed league model in general also applies. Most sports owners and investors in the USA prefer that model because it makes more business sense.
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that and the outstanding rent on the prior team's stadium. But if they count at a phoenix team, what doesn't count as one?
     
  19. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    My point was that those teams didn’t have the option of reorganizing under chapter 11 - they disappeared by MLS diktat.
     
  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    A team that wasn’t formed as a direct result of the failure of another.

    They weren’t responsible for outstanding rent on Somerton Park, nor would they have been limited to playing there to have played in Newport.
     
  21. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    Probably not the best example....

    https://socceresq.com/2018/04/20/psv-mls-file-motion-to-dismiss-modell-lawsuit/
    ...the argument appears to be that since the Crew as an entity do not “exist” in Ohio, that neither the City nor the State can reach them for purposes of forcing a sale.

    [​IMG]

    Essentially if this argument holds, the plaintiffs would not be able touch the “property” of the Crew, even if the Modell law applies.
     
  22. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    If MLS dropped the entrance fee to 10 million dollars and attracted 180 or so operator/investors throughout the country,while maintaining the single entity system, with 10 levels of pro/rel would people be happy? If they kept expanding after that, adding lower levels, would that be acceptable? I know its preposterous but I'm curious.
     
  23. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Congratulations to Tranmere, winners of the last promotion place out of the fourth tier of English football, 1-0 winners in front of more than 25000 fans (not the best of games unfortunately)
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  24. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Oh. Did i miss Columbus being contracted?
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They were relocated.
     

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