The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    What was your takeaway?
     
  2. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I used to enjoy watching soccer chat shows but lately I just can't be bothered, because of the focus on the very top. "The Locker Room" on BeIN Sport is the worst offender.
     
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  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    By the thesis of this article, those same clubs would be in trouble in any system. The issue is not promotion/relegation and you're (and perhaps the author, although I don't think it was their point, either) not quite right that it's digitisation (although that's a specific avenue for the instability): the sport of soccer is going through massive disruption.
    I don't think a mobile app would have saved Bolton: like you said, that's not what is making Tranmere or Dulwich Hamlet or F.C. St. Pauli or Detroit City FC weather this supposed storm. It's the embrace of the hyper local. The selling of atmosphere and not simply relying on the sport to draw the crowd.

    The problem isn't that the youth or whatever what a digital experience, it's globalization, just everything else. Because you can watch Barca or Liverpool or Juventus week in and week out, non-CL level soccer has to attract followers some other way.

    This is the same issue that MLS faces and why nobody watches it on TV. It's the same issue USL faces. It's the same issue NPSL faces. I imagine it's the same in Serie B, and Segunda Division, etc.

    The problem is that, like so many mature businesses, its practitioners are very slow to adapt to the realities of the market around them. A lot of this is because nobody really "knows" the right answer, of course (although I would say this embrace of the local is really good approach) and doing the wrong thing is often viewed worse as clinging to the status quo and hoping things straighten themselves out, even if that's a sinking ship.
     
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  4. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Leicester have been a growing force over recent years, I think they are 'doing it right' they are a success story that are (currently) going in the right direction, I think under Brendon Rogers they will be better than under Ranieri, the one time 'dead certs' for relegation are now ready to move on from being an established Premier League club to one ready to challenge for European positions, Manchester United and Chelsea are 'currently' heading in the 'other direction' - but things always change.
     
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  5. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder how high the ceiling for LC is fiscally. They're not the poorest team in the Prem by any means, and it's only been a few years since their amazing Premiership championship. There's room for growth in that regard, methinks.
     
  6. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    That the business of soccer is going through the same fundamental global disruption that newspapers, libraries, and department stores have either gone through or are going through.
     
  7. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the article is actually relevant to this thread..........it gets people talking and thinking about the struggles of lower league football.........

    The reality is that the majority of American soccer fans don't watch the teams below the UCL. Hell, the majority of American soccer fans don't even watch MLS, let alone their "local independent soccer club." That's a huge obstacle to implementing Pro/Rel in the USA.
     
  8. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    This is a good explanation. You could easily make the argument that this article is relevant in any thread in Soccer in the USA.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, they're the result of two successive owners gambling everything on promotion.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They also have richer owners than Liverpool and Manchester United.
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    On the contrary. They’re the result of your owner being an idiot managing both your club and his business.
     
  12. They do?
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They do, according to Wikipedia.
     
  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    “It’s not outlandish to worry”.

    Those are classic weasel words. Me thinks it’s time to tot up how many Football League teams have disappeared recently. Oh, not a single one in the last quarter of a century...
     
  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And the previous owner who claims he sunk in £18 million. He fired Craig Short 3 months into his first full season because we were only 8th in League One. When he eventually sold up we were 21st in League Two.

    They are two examples of businessmen who had (emphasis on past tense) run very successful businesses based on their strong personalities and thought they could apply their experience to association football.
     
  16. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    All you are doing is illustrating just how poorly Notts County have been run. Hope
    you get your act together or I can see you slipping further like the team from the place I’m posting this from.
     
  17. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    So, you've come full circle.
    With a lovely catch-22

    For the longest time, BigSoccer's usual anti-Pro/Rel suspects have insisted that those of us who want to see #ProRelForUSA should just shut up because the only way you can possibly even talk about Pro/Rel involving anyone is if there are "too many teams."

    Now, you tell me "pro/rel only works if you keep the top division from getting too big" but since you think "the horse is out of there barn," there still no reason to talk about Pro/Rel?

    And you wonder why people like me get so exasperated with about 10-12 perpetually anti-Pro/Rel regulars on BS...

     
  18. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    So, what does England do? Jettison Pro/Rel? Have The Championship become the equivalent of AAA baseball?

    Sad for you that even if England actually did just that, there'd still be a huge majority of countries in FIFA that still have Promotion/Relegation as an integral part of their setup.

    Lower league football fan here who is very well acquainted with the volatility and instability of our closed pyramid. We don't want our lower leagues to become MLS's version of a farm club system. Only MLS snobs in places like LA, NYC, and Chicago fantasize about that.

    Also, there seems to be a problem/disconnect with the expectations of fans in large "major league" markets. Since the other major leagues in the US are arguably the best in the world in their respective sports, is it any wonder that casual soccer fans in cities oversaturated with major league sports decide MLS isn't really worth their time, especially on TV?

    MLS has to be more than just the standard wannabe NFL, NBA or MLB. There has been nothing underneath them compared to other sports....

    The reality is that we American soccer fans are far more intelligent than that.
    We are loyal to soccer based on teams that play in the city or market in which we live...
    [​IMG]
     
  19. P/R isnot essential to soccer league organisation. It's a necesity for it when many clubs exist so to ensure the best will be in the top league by performance.
    When things go the other way around, like clubs disappearing, there comes a point that P/R isnot possible anymore.
    If for instance the "Eredivisie" contains the last 18 professional clubs in the Netherlands and the clubs that are in the tier below it donot want to promote when they have the right to do so, P/R de facto ceases to exist...for that moment.
    However that isnot the same as a closed league, as that has that situation baked in.
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The team names, the stadiums and supporters remain but many are completely different businesses.
     
  21. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The US is arguably in exactly the position you're describing, though. When MLS started, there were four existing professional clubs that had the financial ability to travel across the US. Right now, with the exception of a handful of major cities, soccer is still unpopular enough that few people are willing to invest enough money in a club to make it capable of playing in a national league (keep in mind that a national league in the US means flying to most away games), without the security of a closed system.
     
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  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But I've said the same thing. Ending expansion would be the first step towards pro/rel.
     
  23. Union Berlin can become the 56th BuLi club since it was started in 1963.
     
  24. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    It's a shame that Notts County didn't go bust.

    Serves them right that they are now non-league because Derek Pavis was an areswipe.
     
  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nobody wonders why you are the way you are Jeff. Nobody.
     
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