2019 MLS Week 13 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, May 22, 2019.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    05/22/19

    New York Red Bulls vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Red Bull Arena (8PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Ted Unkel
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Logan Brown

    05/24/19

    Orlando City vs LA Galaxy
    Orlando City Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Kevin Klinger

    Real Salt Lake vs Atlanta United
    Rio Tinto Stadium (9PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Farhad Dadkho
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Los Angeles FC vs Montreal Impact
    Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Elton Garcia
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Cameron Blanchard

    05/25/19

    Chicago Fire vs New York City
    SeatGeek Stadium (3:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs FC Dallas
    BC Place (7PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Mike Rottersman
    AR2: Chris Wattam
    4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    VAR: Ricardo Salazar
    AVAR: Peter Balciunas

    New England Revolution vs D.C. United
    Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Jeff Hosking
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Thomas Supple

    Philadelphia Union vs Portland Timbers
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Adam Wienckowski
    4TH: Kevin Broadley
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Colorado Rapids vs Columbus Crew
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (7PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Guido Gonzales Jr
    VAR: Robert Sibiga
    AVAR: Alicia Messer

    FC Cincinnati vs New York Red Bulls
    Nippert Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Ted Unkel
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    Minnesota United vs Houston Dynamo
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    05/26/19

    Toronto FC vs San Jose Earthquakes
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Sporting Kansas City vs Seattle Sounders
    Children’s Mercy Park (5PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Kyle Longville
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    New York Red Bulls II vs North Carolina FC
    MSU Soccer Park (7PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Jeffrey Skinker
    AR2: Tom Felice
    4TH: Brian Dipaolo

    As we might have guessed from his CPL center, Silviu Petrescu seems to have passed fitness.

    Las Vegas Lights vs Tulsa Roughnecks
    Cashman Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Stephen McGonagle
    AR2: Eduardo Jeff
    4TH: William Randy Hoffman

    Stott should be able to return to MLS duty after this match from what I've been told.
     
  3. oldmanref

    oldmanref New Member

    madrid
    Mexico
    Apr 1, 2019
    2 4th officials for Ted Unkel
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Poeschel with the seemingly correct no goal decision. Close one!
     
  5. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    and both for NYRB. Not the way *I* would assign, but they didn't ask.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  6. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
  7. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As someone who was at the game, the yellow felt right. It wasn't a crazy foul, he threw his leg in there, it was a PK. Pretty much everyone was happy with the call.
    The more "rules-ish" answer is that there was enough of an attempt at the ball to make the PK an appropriate punishment. Had Armando called the foul for the arm, I suppose it could have been red. But he demonstrated clearly (not on the video) that he was calling the trip, which means since the trip happened in a legitimate challenge for the ball that DOGSO and "triple punishment' don't apply.

    I personally liked the good old days (3 years ago) of this being red...but I suppose those days are no more.
     
  8. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    He may have indicated that it was a trip, but he's wrong. I'm not saying that this should be corrected because it's not to the level of "Clear and Obvious" but I am wondering if he would get dinged on the assessment because it's a body check (illegal charge) not a trip.
     
  9. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Law 12 says it must be a red card if the foul involves pushing, pulling, or holding. However, the instructions are to give the defending player the benefit of the doubt when it comes to borderline calls as to whether it was a reasonable attempt to play the ball. Here, the fact that it's the body contact and not the contact with the arms that the referee is calling (I recorded it as charge/trip because there was contact around the hip) makes the yellow an appropriate outcome. Had Zimmerman managed to get around and win the ball, I doubt that anyone would seriously consider calling a pushing or holding foul.
     
  10. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Watching that video I don’t have any doubt or believe it’s a reasonable attempt at the ball. I think that should be acknowledged in the instruction that although this meets the standard for a red card. It’s in that grey area where if the referee says yellow or red the VAR wouldn’t overrule. But I digress.
     
  11. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    You're missing @ManiacalClown's point - it's a red card if it's pushing, pulling, or holding. Even if there isn't an attempt to play the ball, it wasn't one of those three, it was a hip check. Therefore, yellow is appropriate.
     
  12. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    I thought a hip check was a charge.
     
  13. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    OH this brings up something interesting. I just thought it was a charge from behind, which is a red card. But what if it's considered a hip check, is that a trip or a charge? That's even more interesting than I thought.
     
  14. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Watching the tail end of the TFC/SJ match... a couple things I noted:

    1) I really don't like Saghafi's style of displaying cards. It's very aggressive, and he gets into players' faces.
    2) There was a swing out by SJ10 that was cautioned (good on the referee to view this and keep his eyes watching after the ball left). VAR sent down for a clear and obvious error. Ref didn't agree... but made the VAR sign and just continued with a FK.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that #2 will be on the list of incidents this coming week.
     
  15. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like he apologized in reply to that tweet. Said it was unintentional. It's misconduct, surely. Whether it needs to be more than yellow depends on the context, but it sure doesn't look good.
     
  17. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  18. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    Can we actually take anything useful away from stats like those though or are they just something fun to look at?
     
  19. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well the game count is fun to look at for sure.
    The fouls and cards per game are stats that the teams have. I doubt all of them use those stats, as I know a few coaches have the attitude of "I can't control the refs so who cares." But there are certainly some coaches that do care, and if they have a referee who is high on the foul/card/PK count, it might make them push a star player more to the middle and up, but if they have a very low count, they might push them more to the outside.
    Although, sometimes I think these stats can become sort of self-fulfilling. As in, "Toledo gives a lot of cards, so put him on this potentially explosive game." Over time that puts him in more positions than say, Drew Fisher, who might be kept on more open games, since he tends to keep his cards in his pocket. Again, over time, those stats just get exaggerated.
    But on the other hand, obviously there is going to be a difference between a Canadian and a ref from the Mexican leagues of Los Angeles. So, these numbers just confirm that.

    The other thing I'd add is that this shows tremendous parity among the referees. Ten years ago I doubt that most refs would be that balanced in cards/PKs on home vs. away games, that's for sure. Heck, I think the league even had the attitude of "give more PKs to the home team" ten years ago, where as now that attitude is gone, and things seem very balanced.
     

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