Best technique

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Alessandro10, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I don't think you have to be among the 5 best at something to be amongst the top tier. The difference between the best 30 or so or even more is very negligible IMO. For example, given Platini, Maradona, Netzer, Hoddle, Riquelme, Gianni Rivera, Hagi, Van Hanegen... which of those do you leave out as non top tier? That's not even mentioning Pirlo, Xavi, Guardiola, Veron, Scholes and so many others. All those guys are top tier passers of the ball. And if Cassano isn't there, he is certainly not far off. I consider him superior to Zidane, Cesc, Ozil in terms of passing technique. And in some aspects, equal to the greats.
    His first touch is every bit as good as Maradona, Bergkamp, Zizou, Ronaldinho, Baggio. The tightness of his dribble is no worse than a Figo or a prime Del Piero etc and IMO the differences become quite small at the top. The difference becomes the physical level and even the tactical understanding of the game.
    Isco's shooting technique is just fine btw, his mentality and reluctance to go for goal is another thing altogether. I can't think of a single thing that Isco doesn't do at the very highest level when he attempts it. Perhaps long passes (Xabi-esque). Otherwise he does all those things the great technicians did. His teammates at Madrid & Spain have remarked the same.

    Are Futre, Littbarski, Sivori not top tier dribblers, as another example
     
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  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #27 carlito86, May 22, 2019
    Last edited: May 22, 2019


    Some background info is needed on this player

    There are some hidden gems ive come across as the greek player vasilis Hatzipanagis or saudi player from the 80s Yousif Al-Thunayan but this bearded Italian genius is possibly one of the most skillful pro players ive ever seen
    The guy has complete mastery of the ball its really ridiculous almost unbelievable ive never heard of him

    @Edhardy @PuckVanHeel @celito @leadleader @PDG1978 @Alessandro10 @ko242 @Bavarian14
     
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  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Some great skills there.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting find!

    It seems he got nicknamed 'Batigol' which seems a bit strange as he doesn't seem to have anything of the powerful running of Batistuta, yet certainly seems better than him in terms of intricate skills. I'd have thought 'Rivelino' might seem more apt as a nickname maybe, or 'Rivaldo' or maybe 'Suker' since he seems to be a striker:


    (I think you know him well enough probably but just posting those in case they help).

    He maybe has powerful shots in common with Batistuta, but is obviously left footed unlike the Argentine. Maybe even some slight similarities to Van Persie @PuckVanHeel in some respects with the shooting and technique (since we were trying to think of some players who would have in style of play and type of attributes - not level of play or career)?
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually Puck, now I think about it (and I'm not sure why it didn't come to mind before when we were on the topic) probably Suker is about as close as I can think of for a style comparison with Van Persie actually even (without being close to identical in every aspect).
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #31 carlito86, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
    Since ive mentioned him and some or many of you may not be aware of him Yousif Al-Thunayan is considered the greatest saudi pro player of all time
    I don't think their league had too much exposure in the 80s and as a consequence the level was quite abysmal
    He was past his prime by the time saudi qualified for I think their first world cup in 1994
    he could probably score that famous maradona esque solo goal by owairan with relative ease


    @PDG1978
    This guy was an AM/playmaker excelling particularly in through balls
    I think in skillset his agility and close control can be compared to lionel Messi and ball skills compared to Ronaldinho
    Not suggesting he was at their level as an overall player( and of course it helps a great deal when you are playing against amateurs)

    Still I don't think these guys were necessarily worse than the J- league zico piksi,littbarski etc played in the 80s and 90s
    or even the NASL of the 70s (with pele, Beckenbauer, best etc)
     
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  7. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Who had a better technique between Zidane, Baggio and Bergkamp? Maradona is the best ever IMO.
     
  8. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    There is also Magico Gonzalez who belongs in a top 10 technical players:
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah I see a bit what you mean after watching the video again. Suker his build is different (with effect on strength and pace) but the way of striking and volleying the ball and moving around the ball, manipulating the ball looks similar. Difference is of course Suker played as the striker for longer (RvP did this for only 3 seasons, basically). Similarity is both received an ovation by their former club (Sevilla in 1996, RvP in 2016 after scoring a goal againt ManUnited). This one Suker scored for Arsenal has indeed some similarities I'd think. Both have an impressive collection of goals I think (RvP has a bit more variation I think as a result of playing at other positions as well). Some have also suggested he was a cross between DB10 and MvB (the latter started playing him as a striker, before Wenger decided to do the same).
     
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  11. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC

    Nicolae Dobrin


    Dragoslav Sekularac


    Dragoslav Sekularac


    Dragan Dzajic


    Some fine technicians from the east.
     
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  12. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    That's some outrageous skills. Wonder why he doesn't play for a renowned club.



    Here's another great striker from my country. He has 67 international goals and is as clutch as any player I've ever seen
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It's very hard to be definitive about a top 10, and also to be absolutely clear about how we define 'most capable technical players', but I'll stick with the 10 I settled on on another thread and tentatively put them in this order (I think actually that each player I'm placing in an odd number slot only gets ahead of the player immediately following them (so 1 ahead of 2, 3 ahead of 4 etc) when giving full consideration to technical skills used when dribbling, particularly pure dribbling in full flow....but of course dribbling is not only about technique so it's hard to analyse it in that respect to an extent - taking dribbling out of it then I'd possibly favour those players in even numbered slots all in all against the players directly above them in the list).

    1 - Zico
    2 - Zinedine Zidane
    3 - Diego Maradona
    4 - Dennis Bergkamp
    5 - Ronaldinho
    6 - Glenn Hoddle
    7 - George Best
    8 - Alessandro Del Piero
    9 - Michael Laudrup
    10 - Dragan Stojkovic
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Which specialist qualities did George Best have outside of dribbling?

    Hoddle was probably the most gifted playmaker England ever produced
    This however is only 1 category of technical ability
    How about Stanley Matthews who excelled at dribbling


    Even if we say George Best was one of the most impressive close control experts ever we could say the same about a few others
    In playmaking he doesn't compare to garrincha,figo,dzajic,ribery etc

    In scoring he doesn't compare to cristiano 07-09,resenbrik, prime robben etc

    In my humble opinion the only complete technical player Britain ever produced was Paul Gascoigne(a player who was able to do everything to a world class standard)
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think Best's touch was great in general, and he was completely at ease with playing the ball with both feet. He showed various times that he could shoot very accurately and with finesse (into the far corner of the goal for example, but also placed or driven from the edge of the box). And I think his playmaking could be better than might be typically stated, although while his dribbling helped him make openings it's obviously true that sometimes his focus was on holding the ball himself rather than releasing it (but he could release it efficiently when he saw a pass/cross or chose to play a team-mate in). I'm not sure he was less of a playmaker than Garrincha for example at all (maybe less of a provider with traditional wing play - going past the defender on the outside and crossing or pulling it back...although he could do it well still), and I think if he wasn't a proper great playmaker it wasn't due to technical deficiencies.

    Without being a striker, and I'd think without firing a huge amount of shots, he could be top scorer for United (while still setting up goals, and of course the footage we can see isn't close to complete for each season even in terms of goals/assists let alone skills, and as is often cited he played on many dodgy pitches).

    I think out of him and Matthews (although footage for him is even more scarce, especially from when he was relatively young) I'd see Matthews more as the dribble specialist (not to say the better dribbler of the two) and wingplay specialist, and Best more the all-round talent.

    Hoddle's technique with shots could be great (including volleys, chips, curling shots) and his skills and ball manipulation too, with his touch being very assured and his delivery of the ball very precise generally.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    In terms of the categories you came up with Carlito (which can be a good guide to different ways in which technical qualities can be measured...but maybe hard to say it covers it completely)….

    I'd possibly go with this from a technical perspective only (6 being relatively normal, 10 being a level few players possessed):
    • Controlling the ball - Hoddle 9.5, Best 9
    • Running with the ball - Hoddle 6.5, Best 10
    • Passing the ball - Hoddle 10, Best 7.5
    • Shooting - Hoddle 9, Best 8.5
     
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  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I thought to be more complete I should add the others I picked out for my top 10 call/estimate too so have done that in brackets - I'm doing this after choosing an order rather than in order to choose it of course....so the scores won't completely match my verdict and I'd also be tempted to switch quite a few choices by half a point one way or the other probably!
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In arguably his most iconic not necessarily best performance vs benfica 68 he was dispossessed almost every time he touched the ball,made several bad touches particularly in the first half
    Aston was a more impressive performer overall (I just sat and watched the whole match over this bank holiday weekend)
    There is a lot of revisionism that surrounds this performance (he was much better against real Madrid for example with 2 assists)
    There is a pretty lengthy comp on best call el Beatle(around 14 mins which is especially long for a player of his time)
    I saw everything you talk about(the finesse shots, lobs,close control everything that is except this elite playmaking
    Not even 1 example of a visionary pass,pinpoint accurate crosses

    The bread and butter of garrincha was humiliating the fullback and delivering a cross
    Im not sure he could do anything else other than this but as a wing playmaker garrincha from the footage I've seen was a tier above
    This is not the place id think to get into this but George Best played a high proportion of his matches as either the furthest or second furthest outfield player
    Here for example it states he scored
    90 goals in 246 matches as a number 11 (FW or striker)


    It breaks down also his goal tally as a number 10 (playmaker)
    As a number 7 and even 8
    we can say he was extremely versatile (definately than garrincha)
    So It isn't accurate to say he scored his goals from the same position as figo for example
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Quick response Carlito mate with some bullet points:
    - Number 11 would usually be left winger (but sometimes left wing forward in a 4-3-3 more like C.Ronaldo than Figo in role yes). Sometimes maybe a central midfielder depending on formation but less likely (I think he wore number 7 in that role a bit more though)
    - Yeah, the performance vs Benfica that sometimes gets called his best game was in 1966 in Lisbon (Bobby Charlton seems to feel this was as good a game as Best played apparently) (indeed as number 7 but in midfield I believe)
    - On that El Beatle comp there are a few moments where he dribbles and then plays in a team-mate and I can think of a cross to Law vs a team in white (maybe in about 1969 - getting towards the end of the video).
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think there are one or two passes in this one that might be more what you'd have been looking for Carlito (although his best created openings for himself or others probably still come from dribbling):


    And I was thinking of the cross at 8:19 on this one, planted onto Law's head accurately (I just found it now and I can't recall if I worked out which game it was from before or not - lots of away teams wore white around that time! - but it could be earlier than 1969 and not all clips are completely in order; also it could be he's wearing number 7 although not sure but he is doing in the previous clip anyway and at that moment on the left wing):

    I think it's evident anyway that he is often good at smoothly filtering the ball onto a team-mate, showing his general mastery of the ball to be able to do that, but also hinting at him being a 'proper footballer' rather than just a 'ball hog' (I'm not saying you gave him that label though!).

    Probably I'd feel if I widened the gap (from a technical perspective) between his passing and shooting to a 7 and a 9 that might be over-doing it a bit anyway. But yeah he wasn't renowned as a playmaking maestro overall in general, and often what he created was in part due to unsettling opponents and opening gaps with his dribbling.
     
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  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #46 leadleader, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
    That is more or less my conclusion as well: the physical side is extremely important both for ball retention as well as dribbling... Furthermore, I'd argue that ball retention is more about physical mobility - or as I like to call it, "having good feet for specific recurring situations" - than about physical speed, whereas dribbling is as much about speed as it is about mobility, but in essence, I'm convinced that the physical side is crucial to what is generally understood as "natural talent."

    With players like Del Piero, he is very elegant on the ball, but a lot of the time, he isn't really doing highly difficult skills besides his ability to draw fouls in areas of the pitch where defenders are more often than not more than happy to give away fouls. Del Piero is a player who is either at the end or near the end of a sequence of passes, which means that Del Piero will probably either draw a foul or score a goal, and because he largely lacks the physical ability to run or dribble past defenders, well that means that defenders are generally more than happy to just foul him, ending the sequence of play.

    On the other hand, with a ball retention specialist like Carlos Valderrama, him being at the origin or near the origin of most of the passing... means that fouling him allows him to dictate the tempo of the game on the basis of drawing fouls at will, which is something that defenders try to avoid, and something that Del Piero cannot do given that he doesn't have the physical resilience for it, nor the physical strength for it, nor the participation-rate for it, etc.

    When analyzing the number of fouls generated by one particular player, the quantity itself can more often than not give a mistaken conclusion, which is why it is fundamental to understand the context of what those fouls actually offer... for example, is the entire tempo of the game being largely defined by the fouls drawn by one particular player (when said player participates a lot in midfield, meaning that yellow card prevention will mean that defenders cannot recklessly foul said player all the time, which nonetheless still means that said player's capacity to draw fouls is largely defining the tempo of the game; even when he isn't literally drawing fouls), or is the player who was fouled the most simply a low-participation-player who found himself at the end of runs where defenders were more than happy to end the sequence of what appeared to be a dangerous open play situation?

    At any rate, I think that Del Piero adds elegance and personality to a skill that many technicians are very good at, it isn't a rare skill to find, and other than that, I cannot say that his technique was ever a consistent factor against the difficult opponents; long story short, he lacks the physical ability to insert his technique in games where he isn't allowed any space. More than anything else, that is probably why he never truly made a name for himself with the Italian national side... World Cup 1998, Euro 2000, World Cup 2002, Euro 2004... and what exactly do you remember of Alessandro Del Piero in all of those tournaments?

    Meanwhile, Valderrama was a permanent difficultly for the top tier opponents that he faced across the years e.g. Argentina 1987 (Copa America), Brazil 1989 (Copa America), West Germany 1990 (World Cup), PSV 1990/91 (Cup Winners' Cup), Argentina 1991 (Copa America), Brazil 1991 (Copa America), Real Madrid 1991/92 (La Liga), Argentina 1993 (Copa America), Argentina 1993 (World Cup Qualifier), etc. Relative to the time, it is difficult to find a ball retention expert quite as consistent against the top tier measure as Valderrama was.

    In conclusion: the physical side is generally very underrated in terms of how it makes technique more applicable or consistent against the top tier opponents. Del Piero for all his class on the ball, has a handful of moments against the top tier opponents, where you can say that his technique was a defining factor, etc. Del Piero hits very high marks in terms of his aesthetic idealism, in terms of the theoretical value that is presumed to be reproducible against all opponents, top tier or mid tier. Yet in reality, Del Piero's physique is not powerful enough that it would allow him to consistently make a mark in games where he barely touches the ball; games where his only demonstrable contribution tends to be looking fluid and elegant as he goes down when drawing a foul, which itself tends to have little to no effect (given Del Piero's notable lack of participation) on the outcome or rhythm of the game. And yet Del Piero's technique is more often than not categorized as superior to players like Valderrama or Isco; ball retention experts who remain ball retention experts regardless of how great the opponent is.

    In this sense, I tend to think that book-and-theory idealism tends to override empirical reality itself, and it's probably not even close I'd argue. For example, technicians like Valderrama or Isco or Totti simply don't have the beautiful slalom dribbling runs of Zidane or Maradona or Laudrup, etc. Similarly, ball retention experts like Valderrama or Isco or Totti also don't quite have the television-magic-first-touch moments of Zidane or Bergkamp or Baggio or Del Piero, etc. At any rate, most of the time that such lists - "best technicians of all time" - are made, it is the visceral memory that tends to override the analytical memory.
     
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  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I wouldn't say I particularly disagree with much of this leadleader btw. I think like edhardy alludes to there will be a lot of players who can in their own right be considered exceptional technical players, and you're right that it's hard to separate the physical attributes or pretend they don't exist.

    I think when it comes to selecting 10 names it's obviously a hard call and will obviously mean leaving out various valid candidates. Maybe those that catch the eye tremendously with technical skills and/or those with a very rounded technical game will stand out and come to mind easily.

    As far as comparing the two Italians Totti and Del Piero from a technical viewpoint, probably in half of those categories Carlito came up with I'd have scored Totti the higher (passing, and ball control even though at certain moments I think Del Piero would manipulate the ball better and more smoothly but again that's probably in part related to being able to turn sharply, having better agility etc). I'm thinking of Del Piero pre-injury anyway when I name him, although I guess it can be argued that in a lot of respects he should have recovered his technical abilities more than his physical ones after his comeback (sometimes maybe they don't only aid each other, but a decline in one can make the other worse - if a player gets a bit heavy legged for example compared to before).

    Anyway, I read your post in full and do see where you are coming from.
     
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  23. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #48 greatstriker11, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    Romario easily warrants a place in the following categories which was overlooked.

    Skills: his famous 180 scoop turn (cola de vaca) is second to none. Also, he was a gifted header considering his 5.6 ft height. His aerial control was tier 1.

    1 touch, flicks, outside the foot: Among the very best when it comes to 1 touch and outside the foot control. Most of his goals scored and assists were using the outside of his foot technique. And lets not forget his so many double sombreros and volley/chip goals. He could outplay 2 defenders with double sombrero alone.

    Ball control/trapping: He has one of the best trap technique I saw that was close to resembling that of Maradona/Pele. He was a great trapper with both feet and chest/head.

    Finishing: you have already included him in this category. Perhaps one of the greatest finishers of all times along with Gerd Muller and Van Basten.

    @Edhardy
     
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  24. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Pele in my opinion was tier 1 in all categories of techniques.
     
  25. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Playmaking/Passes:

    Maradona and Cruyff are perhaps the best. But, Laudrup and Valderrama are my personal favourites.
     

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