The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    No there wouldn't. why would there be? Watford, Bournemouth and Crystal Palace themselves have spent most of their history as low league clubs and Carlisle were a top flight club in 1975. In fact Watford and Crystal Palace are prime examples of how clubs can 'grow' thanks to the pro/rel system, both seem pretty firmly entrenched now as 'big clubs',. they have certainly not always been classed as such, if Bournemouth can sustain success for the next 10 years or so they too may be a 'different' club to the historical Bournemouth - good innit.
     
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  2. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ^ that ... all through JR High and High School a very good friend of mine and I would go to the neighboring towns and play pick up matches with the adults/older kids out of school.

    The only other "white" people there were German or Scandinavian ... everyone else was Hispanic.
     
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  3. These are two seperate things, that also mean different things in the closed single entity mls structure and the open P/R environment.
    In the Dutch style it is with a scrutiny and correction system we try to ensure clubs donot go beyond their means and when circumstances change, they're obliged to take action to become financial healthy again.
    We put clubs into financial categories 1 (very bad and subject to close constant scrutiny. De facto the club has to acquire permission from the KNVB for any financial obligation they want to make.), category 2 (not in trouble, but cause for concerns are present, which makes them being scrutinised closely without the restrictions of cat. 1, and category 3, the healthy ones that have a financial buffer and at least a budget matched by revenues.

    The "asset to the league"is a dodgy one. Given the mls set up it is all about where to make the most money, not about spreading and making professional soccer available where there's a viable market for it.

    If in a non mls city/town a club like Excelsior Rotterdam would be viable to exist for the pleasure of their fans, but with a limited, but big enough market to be financially healthy with a small stadium, it wouldnot get the chance to exist, because it wouldnot generate the money for the single entity's cravings.
    So in Rotterdam with 650000 residents Excelsior exists with a fanbase in the smallest stadium for a pro club in West Europe, next to 4 miles away Feyenoord and 4 miles the other way sitting Sparta Rotterdam.
    The difference is that Excelsior is an independent entity, only serving itself and it's own fans, while from an mls club being a franchise from the holding company only gets the nod if it satisfies the mls investors.
    The Dutch/European system is geared towards satisfying fans, the mls system is geared towards satisfying investors/exploiting fans.
     
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  4. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well see that's a huge part of the issue though ... they professed all this garbage but then immediately scoffed at the idea of relegating below themselves.

    I mean FFS, seriously? Everything about it was shamtastic.

    Then they should have done it on their own as opposed to on the back of an already waivered and already excepted NASL. Jumping in late and saying "but I didn't get a life preserve" doesn't come off when you've jumped into a sinking ship that's already had the original crew abandon already.

    And yet we've got lower division clubs in the top tier now and former top tier clubs in lower divisions.

    #Facts********UpYourNarrative

    Watford and Palace have something in common .... Money has bought them within the last decade. You know, MONEY ... that thing you continually ignore and pretend hasn't changed things.

    False ... see USL Championship, League One, League Two (and formerly the NASL)

    In fact, USL League One (professional clubs) has cities much, much smaller than Rotterdam.

    There's more than just MLS to professional soccer in the US.
     
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  5. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    I actually wanted to join the Bournemouth bandwagon until somebody at my local soccer pub told me I couldn't be a Bournemouth fan because "English Stevie" is a Pompey fan...

    Come to think of it, if America needs a better template to use to someday implement an open system including Pro/Rel, I'd take the Dutch and the Germans over the English or Mexico...

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/9089962/sheffield-united-bankrolled-osama-bin-laden-family/
     
  6. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think that'd be a good fit for your vision of pro/rel but even within UEFA, those approaches are beginning to impede competitiveness for those teams.

    I know people will tout Ajax's run but that actually underscores the point: as somebody who saw the mid-nineties Ajax at their peak and grew up in an era where Gullit, Rijkaard and Van Basten were the elite, it's crazy to think of the top Dutch club as a scrappy underdog.

    Now I actually dispute the characterization because Ajax invests in finding & developing youth as opposed to signing established elite talent, which is why their transfer & salary spend is relatively low but nonetheless, they aren't the powerhouse they once were.

    Now as you hopefully know, I'm not especially concerned if US clubs become global forces. They are what they are and I'll support regardless, so I'd be on board with the Dutch approach (indeed, the Dutch environment is something we should be looking to emulate on a number of levels).

    I don't think the German approach would be workable. It relies a little on an honour system & Red Bull has shown it can be effectively worked around if you're willing.

    The greater concern is all those who demand excellence of US domestic soccer. This limits that & despite it being based on a European system, it could still be spun as USSF rules holding the US back.

    Pro/rel requires support.
     
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  7. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    [​IMG]
     
  8. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Football is the most important of the least important things.

    Would I love to have a vibrant multiple division system that included my own city? OF COURSE. Do I, like you, believe that. that system would be best for football in this country? Yes I do. Do I believe that MLS is making decisions that prioritizes their owners financial well being over what is best for Football/Soccer in the US? Yes I do*. Do I believe MLS is a cartel designed to smash lower leagues? HELL NO.

    Here is the reality, while MLS is far from perfect, and I personally believe has succeeded in spite of itself on some occasions**. I also recognize that this is a golden age for the sport in this country. We just went through a summer dominated by the World Cup and the US wasn't in it. I spent Father's day watching Mexico - Germany, followed by Brazil - Switzerland at my Dad and Father in Laws request (and they aren't soccer fans).

    Like I said I would love to have a professional side in San Diego that I could follow, help create a SG for, and live and die with at different levels. But it's not like I am cut off from the beautiful game. I have developed a community of fellow Liverpool fans. There is an active American Outlaws Chapter in town, and if I get the itch to catch a live game I can cross the border and go to Tijuas, or drive up to LA (Shudders at the thought).

    Am I a Jealous of people with a season ticket to Anfield? Sure of course. But I've also been there when the rain is coming sideways and the street lights come on at 3:30pm. Nothings perfect.

    So to finish this long winded post, do I want pro/rel? yeah I do. Do I want it bad enough to do anything more than spend my lunch break on this forum? Not really, because things are kind of okay, and I already spend to much time waking up at 4am for Liverpool, or staying in TJ until 1am watching Xolos.
     
  9. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  13. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dortmund pissing away a huge lead to end up coming in second is gonna sting for a while.

    They had it in the bag, and let it all slip away.

    My Bremen missed out on Europe, which was a bit disappointing but probably fair. They gave me a bit of false hope early in the season but by the Winter break reality was asserting itself.
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has nothing to do with pro-rel but it seems to demonstrate that FFP isn't working. Italy and Germany have joined the club of nations where two or three teams completely dominate every season.

    Of course you can go back to the nineties and see the dominance of AC Milan and Manchester United, or Liverpool in the 1980s but it always seemed to be different clubs that were challenging them. For instance, the 6 titles Liverpool didn't win in a 16 year span were won by 4 different clubs.
     
  15. Exactly, but it keeps popping up time after time as if the anti brigade hasnot got a real argument against it, so make up one.
     
  16. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Is Doyle the clown who said that Miazga would have a better career than John Stones?
     
  17. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    I would point out the Liverpool had a 7 point lead as well.....
     
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  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't City have a game in hand at that point, or am I wrong?

    Either way, you're not wrong but it just felt a little different with Dortmund. It was a long, steady trickle of disappointing results while Bayern was finally getting their act together.

    But yeah, they have to wonder what could have been. But I would argue that City right now are more at their peak than Munich, who have a LOT of guys at the end of their career. This was, relatively speaking, a "down" year for Munich. IMHO anyway.
     
  19. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    That's why I said 7. Liverpool were 10 points ahead with a game in hand.
     
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  20. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, the rational ones of us point to the fact that pro/re helps to entrench that top end by continually pulling the rug out from the underneath the bottom of the table.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's more and more about who has the most $₽ort¥n£ mrد.إ.t.
     
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  22. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #20897 USRufnex, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    Fair enough.

    That is, from every bit of anecdotal evidence I have, the majority view.
    Among American fans, players, coaches, lower division club owners.... @dundee9 had a post a few pages ago I wholeheartedly agreed with.

    Even if we disagreed on that particular point (which we don't), we'd still have far more in common with each other than with the anti-Pro/Rel zealots on this thread and the one that preceded it.

    I myself get annoyed from time to time over a handful of twitter activists "on my side" who find some evil conspiracy that birthed single-entity MLS back in the early 1990s and created SUM in the early 2000s with the specific intent of screwing over the women's game and the lower division men's game.

    Funny, because when I think of a "golden age" I think of the mid to late 1970s up through 1981 as exactly that. There was no little league soccer in the early 1970s in northeast Oklahoma. I remember a guy named Kyle Rote Jr who was the unlikely winner of ABC Wide World of Sports "Superstars" competition, proving that an American soccer player could be just as good an athlete as any other athlete on the planet (or at least in America). I remember how I got talked into playing soccer the first season there was any organized youth soccer at all in 1975. I remember being in the rafters at an indoor arena to see Pele give a clinic. And I remember the people who, with 20/20 hindsight, I consider to be "soccer missionaries," and without them I'd just be a run of the mill sports fan, no soccer required. I remember when a girl named Connie who who played on my 7th grade soccer team (when we didn't have enough boys) ran for the high school student council on the platform of making soccer a "school sport," and actually won.....

    I remember the bad old days. Working on Winter Street in downtown Boston the summer of 1998 and having the audacity to ask this salty old fart of a bartender to change the channel on one of the umpteen TVs with sports on them that nobody was watching to the World Cup. Once he figured out I wasn't a European here in the States on business, you'd have thought I was a nazi sympathizer (yes, I went there).

    Grandpa was a HUGE baseball fan, yet never had a problem with soccer at all, and I remember a game with a huge crowd he and grandma took me to against the New England Tea Men. My stepdad thought soccer was a 'sissy sport." I think the only reason my stepdad wanted to have Sunday brunch with me last summer was just to see me hyperventilate watching WC 2018....

    Well, you sure don't want a team calling itself the San Diego Sockers playing at a minor league baseball park stinking up the pitch in USL... or do you? I mean, what? The Flash not good enough for you? (don't answer that)

    To hear some BigSoccer "experts" talk, you need to support an MLS team the same way you support Liverpool... #OurSoccer... If you don't, you're a europoseur. And I've been told before that when we Americans talk about Europe, what we really mean is "England."

    I'm a firm believe in not making the perfect the enemy of the good.
    But I SURE AS HELL do not want to wait a couple of more generations for Pro/Rel to happen in America..... I'll be long dead by then.

    The sad part about this thread is that we haven't had a knock-down/drag-out argument yet. Over how it should happen, when it should happen, whether MLS should become wildly successful and split into two, whether it'd be best to start from the very bottom, whether Pro/Rel within minor league soccer would be sufficient or substantially beneficial... whether a truly open pyramid would ever be possible or even advisable... or any number of other angles to what I believe is the most compelling discussion you could possibly have about the future of soccer in America right now.

    Instead, I regularly wonder why I continue to participate in a discussion that BigSoccer's moderators have routinely tried to put into a box... which in this particular thread and the one preceding it turned into nothing more than a litter box where all the anti-pro/rel cats can routinely take a shit whenever they feel like it.

    /end rant.

    p.s. https://www.chattanoogafc.com/news/open-letter-garber/
     
  23. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #20898 USRufnex, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    If I ever doubted you were anything less than 99.44% pure anti-Pro/Rel, you just proved me wrong.

    #PerpetualAntiProRelDevilsAdvocate
     
  24. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof

    Not sure Salford City are your best example there......

    When you can buy better players than anyone else due to your ownership structure it is inevitable that you will get promoted.

    Buying a player from the top Scottish league and paying him 4k a week in non-league...

    Yeah. Let's celebrate that.
     
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  25. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey man, that's GOOD management though! Budgets be damned!!!
     

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