Part of the problem is how do we determine the pool? @TheHoustonHoyaFan mentioned that Klinsmann tried 91 players. Did Klinsmann feel that his pool was 91? Possibly. I don't know. Perhaps he tried 91 but when he got down to the nitty gritty, he determined his pool was 50? Maybe something else? Getting a call up is one thing. Being in the pool is another. the other factor is who is he watching? even players that he does not consider in his pool at the moment may very well be on his "watch list". I would expect that to be especially true of the younger players. Some on his watch list will end up in the pool. Others will not. When that happens the pool gets larger. Perhaps he considers the U23 team to be an extension of the full team in the same sense that Dortmund II is an extension of the first team. At least some of the players in the second team are probably considered to be in the pool for the first team even if they haven't been called in. The coach is surely keeping tabs on them and communicating with the coaches at the lower levels. Is Berhalter doing the same? Who knows? Does he consider some of the players in the U23 team to be in the pool? I don't know but my guess is yes. Perhaps he felt that competiton at the U23 level against Spain and Netherlands was good enough to be comparable to the competiton given by Chile and Ecuador while also introducing them to the system of play? I don't really know but think it might be a good guess. You may think otherwise.
Well the good thing is that June isn't that far away. We will know more one way or the other pretty soon. there won't be any u23 games going on that I know of so no excuse for Weah, Sargent, CCV, Robinson etc. If they aren't called into camp at least then we will get a pretty good idea they aren't in the top 35. Based upon Berhalter's positive words about FJ I expect him in camp. I suspect that Berhalter's familiarity with FJ combined with his knowledge of FJ's fear of flying may have played a role in his exclusion...but Berhalter said he spoke with FJ (If I remember correctly) and if this is true, I hope FJ has been kept in the loop. Again...we'll see soon. Edit: I remember that FJ has a fear of flying. Is that accurate or am I mistaken?
I don't think that we have to even speculate. GB was very explicit, start at 1:20 of his interview with Herc. "... If you go by how many players we are actually counting on and evaluating I think that starts to shrink even more. My guess is that right now we are at around 35 players.". Note that earlier he said "...we are watching and evaluating our player every week. We are watching all the games that they are playing in...". As far as previous coaches; Arena famously came to his first press conference after replacing Klinsman with a depth chart with 48 names and said that his pool was 50 to 60. Klinsmann almost always talked about his immediate pool with positions 4 to 5 deep. 35 does seem very low at this early stage in the cycle but to be fair maybe GB is resource constrained? JK had a dedicated person for LigaMX and SA, another for the US, and 2 for Europe whose jobs were to watch, evaluate, and argue for every single US eligible player in their region.
It is strange he has to guess. It is also strange that he has to submit a 40 player provisional roster for the Gold Cup, but is only keeping track of 35 players. But, to me, 35 at one point in time is enough, as long as it is the right 35. So far, if I listed 35 players he has used so far, I'd be missing quite a few of our best 35, imo. But if you tell me that he has looked at 15-20 guys who he is no longer interested in after seeing them, then you can say he started with 50-60 like Arena and has already whittled a good chunk out.
The question was in the context of the Gold Cup competition. Having a 35 player pool right now does not mean the pool doesn't change or that he is only observing 35 players and definitely does not meant that those 35 will be the ones all the way to 2022.
Easy. Folks here will let you know what GB means and how he will carry out for as long as he is coach.
Yeah, I know the drill after 20 years in BS. Frankly, I'm surprised at how easy we've been on Berhalter so far compared to previous coaches.
if you went 4 deep at every position...that's 44 players. in a 35 man pool there's only room for 3 right backs. so Yedlin, Adams, Lima (?)...but no FJ, Cannon, polster rosenberry lichaj thompson etc (?) Seems he will just ride with the ones he has already called. I dont like it for a few reasons. I think there are interesting players that are likely better than some of the players GB has called. Also, I think this tourney is a golden opportunity to actually test what players have...much more than friendlies....should be using this comp to test new(er) players (despite making winning the first priority - you can do both). Lastly, I think some of GB initial picks have shown to be wanting so they shouldn't be in consideration at this point...but with a 35 man pool for this GC that means if you havent already been called you are probably not going to be....it sets a bad precedent for the future ...it shows he will overly favor those players he has already worked with (zardes shouldnt be the minutes leader for any UMSNT coach but under GB he is, for example) ...hge will make previous inclusion a huge factor in future callups...which will make it harder for newer players to break-in as a rule......it shows that GB thinks his system is more important than getting the best talent on the field. I'm impressed with his system and how it has translated but I think at some point - hopefully not too late - he will realize that he is undervaluing the importance of making sure the absolute best 11 is out there playing his system. he's indicated that talent is not a significant factor in his selection process, which I think is a monumental mistake. he cares about familiarity with his system, fit into his system (kinda...cuz he's making some exceptions there), camaraderie, "culture-fit", and talent/club status/situation, and he also has shown that he will maintain a significant % of MLS players in any roster..so he cares about league. i'm not saying he shouldnt care about all,those things but talent should be the overwhelmingly most important factor..and i'm not sure it is for GB.
@Matzoh: FJ wasn't flying phobic; it was Timothy Chandler. I still think Fabian's not into playing with the USMNT, especially since we missed out on WC 2018.
I guess we're arguing about semantics here a bit. Does "player pool of 35 players" mean that GGG will look only at 35 players? It seems to me that it does imply that. Those are the players that GGG is going over film with and keeping in touch with. But, does GGG keep in touch with other players, just not to the same degree? And would he call in one or more of those players, thus meaning that the pool is as expansive as we'd like in terms of options, but only restricted in that he's not in constant contact with more than 35 players? If it's the former, I think there's a problem. If it's the latter, then there's probably no issue. We'll see when he calls the roster.
Perhaps. Maybe he has a list of 35 for the gold cup, but that may change for the next competiton...both in number and who is in the pool. My point, in part, is that it is difficult to know exactly what he means. It's kind of like world class. it's an undefined term that everyone seems to give a different meaning. I think we can all agree that a player pool has to be fluid to some degree. the question is how fluid and exactly how is he using it. You seem to be interpreting it as much less fluid than I would. (I am basing that on how I think I would treat the team...which may be far from how Berhalter will). To me it's more like a coach cutting down his team in steps (but in reverse if that makes sense). You start with a few no brainers and build up from there. The fact is that he can only call in a limited number of players to each camp but he has undoubtedly communicated with Sarachan and watched film/video and he is following players in MLS and Europe. I would guess, for instance that it isn't taking it very far at all to say Pomykal could have earned his way into the pool with his play in MLS. Sargent and Weah haven't been called in by him but he has communicated with Sarachan (I assume) and he has communicated with Kreis.
LOL. SUM loves you. There was never a more professional and USA team-first committed player than Fabian Johnson. The guy played left-back for USA when he was a Champions League Attacking threat schooling Juventes and Man City. meanwhile we still have spoiled brat Michael Bradley still getting call-ups and 100 chances for redemption to become good again after walking/jogging with a shitty attitude. If Bradley had ANY class he would publicly call for the inclusion of Johnson, Morales, Canouse, etc.
I have to admit this part makes me laugh a little. First Bradley was being criticized for picking the team (not saying it was you). Now he is being criticized because he in NOT picking the team (or trying to). No offense.
o mePerhaps. To me this is just an indicator that he hasn't actually spent much time counting the players. If that is the case, I believe it follows that the actual nuimber isn't particularly important to him. (ie he is not "limiting" it to 35 but it is, in fact, fluid and subject to change).
Do we need to be four deep for both the 8/10s or both CBs? Do we believe we can go four deep in LB? Not sure anyone cares about precedent at all. Berhalter had two camps to get a GC roster. It's never going to be complete or ideal and everybody should realize this. Let's wait until we start wringing our hands.
we can go 10 deep easily at every position.... lovitz and sweat wouldnt make my top 10 at left back but they got callups. here's 15 other players i'd be more interested in seeing than lovitz or sweat at left back: Fabian Johnson lichaj Bornstein saief bello desevio payne toljan shea jaylin Lindsey nick lima greg garza villafana antonee robinson tim ream edgar castillo now all of those players aren't going to be up to the level necessary....but my point is just that conversation needs to be a lot deeper that 3-4 players at each position - I could do the same for every position......(much deeper than 3 or 4 at each spot, imo) its not about the team hierarchy. its about making sure that the best options are always in the mix...if you limit the the players who are even being considered to a short list....you are throwing out teh possibility that any underrated but superior player could ever be on the team, basically. perhaps left back #7 in your personal ranking is actually the best option....but you would never find out because you are only looking at 3, for example. your line of questioning reveals how much you let such a limited practice and range of looking at players has impacted how you see the pool generally....over time, since only players under consideration are called up....your view becomes that only a narrow # of players are even good enough to be on the team...when that is completely unknown. when a lovitz or a sweat prove inadequate....that doesnt mean the rest of the depth chart is inadequate too. I could see how you would think that...you might think well if these fringe guys weren;t good enough.. it must mean ALL fringe players are not up to the level....but all it really shows is that THOSE fringe players aren't....which makes me want a wider pool not a narrower one. as for the 8/10 (and all other positions) yes ...the team needs to go that deep because the options that have been given a chance have not demonstrated that they unequivocally superior AND sufficient vs the elite teams. Even if all 4 (say) 10/8s had demonstrated that...well there still needs to be a second string and injury concerns/etc...so.... i agree with you about building a team for the GC...that's fine. He's throwing his lot in with the Bruce Arena method of veteran "inner core" camaraderie importance.....I don't like it. I don;'t care if the USMNT wins the gold cup. I care about world cups .... to me, this approach to the gold cup won;t help the team in the world cup...ad won't even optimize the results of the gold cup. furthermore, what would be nice is if the team builds a style for that from the gold cup - results aside...my opinion is that "turning over rocks" is what is going to make the best team....but whatever.... lets just wait until after the gold cup and even later on...to then say well...now that all these games "really matter" ....its too late for the inexperienced players so we just have to keep going with the "tried and true".....i've seen how this playbook unfolds.....that's why it is not too early to mention that i dont like it....
Don't know if you're right. FJ in interviews was somewhat guarded. Klinsmann probably had to beg him to play FB when Fabian preferred MF. I hate SUM as much as you and others on these boards. I never supported Bradley after he returned to MLS. Morales has been my go-to for years. And Cameron would have been a good option as well. Canouse? I just don't know it he's the solution to our DM problems, although Adams or McKennie seemed like good possibilities.
I have to also believe that this is true and a big part of GBs plan moving forward. Please. If not, strike 2 against him. Strike 1 being his statement/attitude regarding uncapped dual nationals.
lots of great posts, thanks guys first, after listening to the GB interview with Hector, I came away with 2 thoughts. Once again, GB is very diplomatic in his responses and speaks too much in generalities. I also did not like his remarks regarding Adams. When asked about the big 3 he mentioned how, (paraphrasing) Pulisic needs to play in areas where he has space to go at a defense from out wide or as a 10, McKennie wins a very high % of aerials, etc. then Adams. I knew he was good but had no idea of his skills until seeing him in this last camp. It did not sound like a coach/staff that has been watching all of his RPL games. Not very encouraging. I do not expect any rosters changes for GC except for the addition of Altidore. So, I will be GC watching for: How many minutes will Zardes share w/Jozy in our 3 group matches? Who starts and plays LB? How will GB balance the politics of a Bradley/Trapp competition to start? It seems US soccer is already floating the idea in public of Trapp at 6 and Bradley pushed to 8? Will Omar be on roster again so that he can pair with Bradley for a T&T redemption game? (it is possible) @adam tash awesome post! I do not go 10 deep but agree with your reasoning. I would also add, with the MNT in a transition following not qualifying for the WC, the GC should also be used to cap tie our young and promising dual-national prospects. Perhaps they are not ready for the tier 1/2 player pool selection for 2019 but the message GB sent regarding them was also, not very encouraging. "lets just wait until after the gold cup and even later on...to then say well...now that all these games "really matter" ....its too late for the inexperienced players so we just have to keep going with the "tried and true".....i've seen how this playbook unfolds.....that's why it is not too early to mention that i dont like it...." #1 reason I am pissed off. It is still the MB show, with the additions of the Crew 3
no it really shouldn't 35 is actually a lot. the idea that the us has several dozen talents is a joke the us has no where near that level of talent what is worse is you said 'young talents'....several dozens...uh no not even close. the way you talk about the us should be a favorite in 22...I just hope they qualify.
lol yeah should really focus on capping dual nationals...uh no focus on getting a lineup that is going to get this country to the world cup there are no dead spots to just cap guys randomly to force them to play for the us.
Crap guys from MLS are in that 35, so no, again, it's not "actually a lot". The US does have several dozen talents. They may all flame out, but the bar for success is being better than mid-late 20's MLS roster filler. Which is something that I expect many of them to surpass. Even guys like Novakovich have a shout as being better players than some of the MLS late 20's strikers we've seen. I never mentioned '22, I only mention the fact that the player pool needs to be as big as possible early on so that we can winnow players who cannot hack it at the international level of Mexico and above. Guys like Zardes and Lovitz are not good enough for us at the highest levels, even though they may be good enough for the Central Americans like Honduras or Guatemala. A guy like Weah may also not be good enough at the highest levels, but we haven't seen much of him against the mid-level competition either, and we keep handing out minutes like candy to the MLS vets. To perhaps rephrase: I expect Roldan/Ramirez/Zardes/Trapp etc to be serviceable players because they've been solid MLS pros for a while now. I'm fairly certain that their ceiling is not high enough to compete with teams we would face in Qatar. I haven't seen Weah, Novakovich, Pomykal, Sargent, Amon, et al. against CONCACAF opposition to even judge where their floors/ceilings are. They've only been seen at YNT levels or with Sarachan, who was a moron and gave us almost no insights throwing kids out against France, Italy, and England.
the us doesn't have several dozen talents...they have several dozen warm bodies I was just saying if they had that much talent they should be a favorite..but they don't so they aren't. zardes and lovitz aren't good enough I agree but when it comes to someone like zardes someone has to take his spot. pomykal plays in mls...plays against concacaf opposition on a regular basis I think his time will come but he is a few years away probably. weah is struggling in scotland...thats a bad league, nova doesn't have it, sargent can't get on the pitch, amon is in a terrible league and looked terrible against poor competition when called up previously. The issue though is you went form 'dozens and literally came up with four...that isn't dozens and none have shown they are elite prospects yet. my point is simple they have to go with the guys they have until people take their spots. People (like you) think lineup management is like a video game where you just throw random guys at the lineup until all of a sudden it will just magically click in real life you can't do that. This is why there has been recently(and should be in the future) a focus on who is called up to the u23/u20 teams. People(like you) are also always on the lookout for this miracle player who will elevate the us into greatness the fact is it isn't going to happen. It seems like every week(and you can read about it on the youth boards) there is another hype prospect. I mean Gall scored two goals and for a week he needed a callup immediately, amon scored a goal against a terrible team in denmark...call him up, carleton had an assist...call him up...this needs to stop. the team is what it is and its going to be this way for the GC.
People (like you) are idiots. You keep thinking that you can keep plugging in MLS has-beens and do well. Well, the panacea won't happen with one or two players, but it sure as hell won't happen with people with low ceilings.