Cristiano Ronaldo: How overrated is his post-2015 legacy ?? Video analysis and discussion thread.

Ohh boy, we are back at this nonsense again, to make it worst this is after seemingly impossible comeback against arguably the best defensive team in Europe, Atletico!!! Funny enough on the 12th I spoke to the other guy at Atleti store (Gran Via) and he was so sceptical because of one particular guy...as you know it happened. Ironically people in Barcelona as well (of course those I interacted with respect the guy), maybe because they want to appear neutral, I don't know.

Anyway I feel any discussion that even suggests that a player who has helped his team to three consecutive CL titles while being a best player in each of those seasons (this is not up to discussion btw) is overrated is insane. To back up his claim he individually pushed his team to what I consider one of the greatest come backs in CL history (my opinion of course) with a different team that clearly lacks creativity and is not as attacking minded like the likes of Madrid/Barca/even PSG. Anyone who watches Serie A games and is objective will attest to this, Juve games are probably the most frustrating games on TV.

 

A straight 8 for defensive contribution of a forward. It doesn't get any better from a Real Madrid fanpage
Did Messi get half of those chances against Roma that Ronaldo got against Bayern or Liverpool?

You forgot to mention that Messi destroyed the same Juventus in Group Stage

Again you are convoluting the fact that league form has little to no relevance with UCL. Real Madrid finished 3rd in the La Liga last season but they won the Champions League.

 

I know it can be easy and tempting to cherrypick quotations from players to build your narrative around
You picked the worst example possible(for your case at least)

Seeing as Fernando Torres is now the ultimate authority on EPL players during the relevant time period let’s take a look what he said when Cristiano Ronaldo beat him to all individual awards in England(Europe and the world)during 2007/08

“No-one can rival him," the Spaniard told France Football. "He is in a class of his own. I have never seen a comparable player."
For me he is the best player in the world," Torres explained. "A machine. Incomparable."
https://www.goal.com/en/news/1713/liverpool/2008/11/24/980237/liverpools-torres-ronaldo-is-a-machine

His 2007/08 campaign was one of and still remains one of the most dominant individual campaigns in the history of football


La Liga isn’t and never has been as great defensively as the PL 2006-2010
La Liga teams have never dominated the champions league latter stages(particularly in the SFs and finals) as English teams did during that era
I know you are a fan of objectivity and myth busting but this a fact for you to get your head around

Another thing which I didn’t want to address because the point is so stupid to begin with
(Regarding Suarez scoring more La Liga el Classico goals or whatever)
Obviously this is part and parcel of your misinformation campaign so lets set the record straight

Not every goal scored in el Classico is equal
Suarez didnt score his el Classico goals against a team that averaged 65-75% possession
Ronaldo didn’t score his goals against a Barcelona languishing in 10th place with a disastrous defensive record(as Suarez did this season)
You are as per usual disingenuous omitting important details that would(and have) completely derailed your narrative

Barcelona won the league with 100 points in 12/13
15 points ahead of Real Madrid
Ronaldo scored 6 goals in a single season against this team
Are you really saying a rebound/tapin hattrick by Suarez against Real Madrid in 10th place is equal to 6 goals by Ronaldo against a team that won the league with 100 points

No doubt you will say
What about Thomas muller
What about this/that/whoever could also score Multiple goals against Barcelona 12/13
Thomas muller was a proven scorer in big games
Check his record in the World Cup,the CL ko stages pre 2015,Bundesliga
There was no doubt about his quality and knack for finding himself in goalscoring positions against any opponent he faced
Even if Suarez is a greater technical player he does not have the record of Tmuller in important games

He never had it in Liverpool
Never in the champions(QF-final) except 1 rebound tapin against Buffon in 2015
Never decided a copa Del Rey final.
In big games against big club opponents he is not in the same league as Thomas muller(matter of fact he is also worse than fillipo inzaghi)

There is no difference between the 13/14 Suarez who choked in every big game he played and the one for Barcelona
Except in Barcelona he had higher quality playmakers and could as a consequence make the difference in some rare games
As in the 14/15 el Classico
Or the rebound tapin against juventus

I’m sure you would also argue Gareth bales copa Del Rey winner against Barcelona 2014 was equal to CRs against 10/11 Barcelona (which was in your own opinion the greatest team of all time)
While 13/14 Barcelona very arguably wasn’t even a top 5 team of the season
Real Madrid hadn’t won the copa Del Rey in like 20 years before 2011
The significance of that trophy can’t be overstated enough in how it loosened the grip on Barcelona’s dominance in Spain and gave way to a golden era at Real Madrid

 

This is really terrible revisionism and the first time I’ve heard all of these theories
Ronaldo did not play against strong Chelsea sides or strong Arsenal sides LMFAO
What are you babbling about?
Ronaldo put on a MOTM performance against the invincibles arsenal in 2004/05 FA cup final

In the very same season he scored 2 goals at Highbury to beat Arsenal in a thrilling 4-2 encounter
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2354689/Ronaldos-double-sinks-Arsenal.html
He did this at 19 years old

Ronaldo played a Chelsea side that was so dysfunctional and distinctly average that they could still make a champions league final(with Jose mourinho being sacked mid season) and only lost to Manchester United via a penalty shootout.



Messi did dominate the league that dominated the champions league but he did not dominate the champions league so once again your point is obsolete
Ronaldo was over a 3 season stretch (2007-2009) the best champions league player
in 2006/07 he propelled his team to a SF finish with 3 goals+5 assists+3 per assists
He did this playing from a deeper position than Kaka who was really a SS and not a AM any more after shevchenco left
http://forum.football.co.uk/showthread.php?31382-Kaka-attacking-midfielder-or-striker
In 2005 he was a AM behind sheva and inzaghi



In 2007/08 ronaldo was the best CL player
In 2008/09 he was either the second or third best behind Messi/Xavi and the best player in the champions league KO stages


During the Zidane era 2016-
Messi was outclassed by probably 10 different players in the champions league
Including Cristiano Ronaldo 16-18
Roberto firmino 17/18
Mane 17/18
Salah 17/18
Neymar 16-18
Isco 16-17
Marcelo 17-18
Casimero 16/17
Modric 17/18
Modric 15/16
Harry Kane 17/18
Could be more but then I’d be delving into subjective territory

Your new founded love for Liverpool is absurdly hilarious
Liverpool declined from what exactly?
In 2004/05 the amazing Liverpool finished 5th place in the PL in a year according to yourself:
Arsenal were so distinctly average And for your info so were Manchester United who were knocked out the CL Groupstage by benfica

Liverpool were thoroughly dispatched by Milan in the 2005 CL final first half
It wasn’t even a competition but just 1 way traffic
Liverpool came back into the tie through luck and a penalty(your not very fond of those goals at least from what I remember)


CRonaldo was the best player in the best league in the world football
And he was for the best part of 3 seasons
No amount of revisionism will change this fact

 

Please tell me which strong teams he scored his CL goals against
Bearing in mind Liverpool is no longer a strong defensive team post 04/05(at least according to factleader)

I never called Kaka a CF(as inzaghi) but he was not pulling strings creatively as he had been doing in the 2004/05 CL campaign for example(and even 2003/04 which was most likely kaka at his best)


There is no such a thing as a legendary CL run when 6 of your 10 CL goals come against Aek Athens
,anderlecht and Celtic

CR doesn’t get away with this even in his worst season

 

False on two counts


Also say it how it is:
Kaka scored his goals against a defensive pairing of Wes brown and Gabriel Heinze
Not Ferdinand And vidic who were both injured

 

It was literally the first thing that came up on Google. Not worth putting any further effort in for such a low-effort thread. Literally take a look at what @leadleader writes for each of Ronaldo's Champions League campaigns. He dislikes Ronaldo. It's extremely obvious.

For Ronaldo's 2016/2017 season when he destroyed Atletico, Bayern and Juventus, he writes that the ref was Real's best player and that Ronaldo had a lucky/deflected goal in the final. Does he mention anything else? Like scoring a brace at Bayern? A hat trick against Atletico? A non-deflected goal against Juventus (as if the deflected goal is of lesser value anyway loll) ? No, of course not. That's his summary of the entire campaign for Ronaldo. It's horseshit and you give him credence and credibility which he eats up and reps to build his deluded sense of opinion.

You think he'd ever write that one of Messi's CL triumphs came at the hands of Ovrebo? Absolutely not. I've wasted more than enough time on this guy over the years. And this thread has moved into Bada Bing levels of delusion.

You literally just need to read what he wrote for Ronaldo's entire CL campaign, year by year, to see that this is not a person who is looking to have an objective discussion. He actually states as much as when he says he has no information regarding 2007/2008 but is sure it was overrated. lol okay. Definitely a person seeking objectivity. It's actually someone who already has a very subjective view of the player in his head. He's always a good laugh though, I'll give him that.

 

We are talking about missing defenders against a fast counter attacking side as Milan 04-07 who could and did expose slow ass players as Heinze and Wes brown
I don’t recall ronaldo scoring any of his goals when Atlético were missing godin,juventus missing chellini,Barcelona missing pique,alvez,Bayern missing boetang/hummels
Defensively they were always fully manned and described on many occasions as “impenetrable”

 

A hattrick against Bayern in a champions QF can never be overrated(overhyped maybe)
Even if he scored all 5 goals with his chin(or thigh)

There is also no such as a thing as scoring in garbage time when you are the scorer of all 5 of your teams goals

 

I think the last 3 years, CR is basically a Van Basten or Gerd Muller. Dominates the hell inside the penalty box but isn't contributing much in terms of playmaking, building up play, as a dribbling threat etc. Comparing him to Drogba though is really harsh because he is not just better but way way more consistent. No one in this era other than Messi has been as dominant as CR. That's a fact.

I find CR a bit overrated when fanboys come out and suddenly call him GOAT. I mean he himself was a better player circa 2012 then he is now and (almost) nobody mentioned him as a GOAT back then. But in another sense, he isn't overrated because he does what his job is really really well.

I've never cared about accomplishments that much. Messi could win the CL the next 5 years and most people would say he is definitely the GOAT. To me personally he is already the GOAT by now or he never will be. Sure longevity can help your case a bit but you are either a GOAT caliber player or you aren't. No amount of CL titles will suddenly convince me either way. Likewise for Ronaldo last 3 years have validated his career but if you had him #20 all time 3 years ago and now you have him at #4 you should rethink your way of judging players. Sure we can just judge based purely on accomplishments but what debate is there then? Anyone can count titles...

Or we can determine the GOAT in terms of accomplishments and debate the best player of all time (BOAT) separately. Which is how I try to spin things sometimes. And to me who is BOAT is more relevant than who is GOAT. Being GOAT requires great teammates, weaker opponents, being healthy, and luck on your side.

 

The “BOAT” is strictly determined by skillset(what you can and cannot do with the ball
Which categories you excel in and those you lack in)

The GOAT is determined by
Consistency
Titles
Skillset

And other qualities as leadership,good gamesmanship etc


If CR wins the CL as the main star with juventus he will be a greater historical legend than Lionel Messi(for now because we don’t know how Messis career will end)

Messi will still be better(more complete in skillset) but not greater
This is why Michel platini with a inferior skillset to zico is considered a greater historical legend(Euro 84-essentially a handful of games)

The same for Van Basten and Thierry Henry
the french man arguably wasn’t inferior at his peak (especially at league level) however he lacked some defining moments for his legacy (in major tournament)

Same for Gerd Muller who was limited in skillset compared to Romario but ranked historically higher for higher contribution to major titles+big goals that Romario did not have(especially in the WC +EC)

It just isn’t the case that no matter what CR does or wins he can’t surpass Messi.
Major titles won by players who pull of iconic performances have always swung the pendulum in GOAT player discussions

 

Nope


Overhyped if I was to say ronaldos hattrick vs Bayern was better than R9 or Rivaldo vs Valencia only because CL>league and Bayern>Valencia WITHOUT factoring the technical difficulty of R9(and particularly Rivaldos)hattrick

On the other hand a hattrick against Bayern in a CL QF can never be overrated because it’s not like any Johnny nobody could do the same thing
It doesn’t even matter what types of goals they were
like I said even if he scored a hattrick of penalties(or with his shin)it’s still a landmark goalscoring performance against a heavyweight(and in a big match)

If you can’t appreciate that I’m sorry celito but that’s your problem not mine

 

Sure, Ronaldo had quite a few things going his way, but he still had some outstanding showings in the CL while having some of the hardest draws possible.

However I've seen a (rare) subset of his fanbase that wants to push the story that CR somehow had a special Euro in 2016 carrying his nation to a trophy - that's some MASSIVE overrating of his contribution. He was useful in 2 out of 6 games against Hungary/Wales (his "heroic" comeback against Hungary was only necessary, because he was godawful in the first 2 games missing countless chances and a penalty) who aren't exactly world-beaters and missed the most important game against the strongest team.

The likes of Henrik Larsen and Angelos Charisteas had more legendary Euro contributions. Just because it's better than what Messi did on an NT level (which is highly questionable) doesn't mean it's historically relevant for an all time great contender.