The best games of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, comme might have some good recollections of course, but I do recall thinking that Campbell was even surprisingly outstanding (on the ball and defensively) in that 98 WC, but that's not to say that he wasn't showing similar for Tottenham quite often during 97/98 without me being properly aware of it (like you hint at, the World Cup games could be watched in full every time of course...but probably I felt he was playing a step up on other England games too although looking back recently at England vs Italy at Wembley from 1997 I had him among the better performers, playing as central CB of the 3 main defenders...albeit I had the Italians in those roles as playing even better probably - Costacurta and Cannavaro). I think I may have felt he started great in 98/99, but probably from a defensive perspective at least he was still doing well under Graham too, but yes maybe giving the ball away at times due to playing instructions and perhaps with the occasional mistake too (maybe he didn't ever seem completely error-free or lapse-free as a player but then that's the same for Ferdinand as we have discussed).

    Domestic English games are more frantic than International games too of course, although on the other hand against Argentina he had to face Ortega-Batistuta in combination, although I'd say the promptings of Hagi and Valderrama for Romania/Colombia weren't as good as they would have been in other years (and England did still lose to Romania).
     
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  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In terms of goals involvement this seems to be Neymars best ever.
    He scored 4 goals and made 2 assists against a 11th placed Dijon
    (Final score was 8-0.)
    Over on a french football forum some Parisians were saying it was the best individual performance they had seen by any player in France in a very long time.i can’t claim to be an ardent follower of the french league so maybe it could be true or maybe an exaggeration(either way it was evidently a devastating performance)

    @PDG1978 how would you rank this in terms of aesthetic value,effectiveness and compared to great league performances you have seen from legendary footballers
    @PuckVanHeel
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes Neymar received a rare 10/10 from L'Equipe for that (France Football had a 9/10 IIRC, but can't find that so quick now).

    Dijon was indeed a mid-table team but they had the 2nd worst defensive record of the league. Conceding 73 goals. For reference: conceding over 70 goals is what no Premier League side managed to do, while top dog ManCity (again) scored over 100 goals in the league.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_Ligue_1

    Still a noteworthy performance certainly, showing his style and qualities well. But maybe that games vs Lyon, Monaco (past season, not this), Montpellier, Marseille etc. tell just as much, even if it is still a relatively modest league. We've seen Lyon being capable of testing 'untouchable' ManCity twice.
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe approaching a 9 in the second half, but only about a 7 in the first, so in the region of an 8 out of 10 performance all things considered if I try to give it a rating.

    I think there wasn't a lot of special stuff from him before half-time, but the free-kick and the dribble to win it are obviously notable, and there was a nicely played, disguised and timed backheel to play a team-mate in too for example. In the second half he seemed more incisive and played with more impetus I think, but possibly the game becoming a bit more open or the opposition losing fitness or belief can play a part.

    Maybe not far from being on a par (obviously with different type of end product) with that Messi 'Best Playmaking' game you posted recently, which was also a better 2nd half display than first I think.

    Maybe a bit behind Maradona vs Roma (h) from 87/88 in my estimation, although with more end product and being clearly on the winning team (hard to compare the circumstances though I think).

    Compared to that Bergkamp vs Leicester game I posted about (the 98/99 home one) I'm not sure as would need to see all Bergkamp's involvements, but could be close (I know Neymar did get himself on the scoresheet, including with a quality free-kick, but for assists/chances created he'll be a bit behind so could be it would be fair to say those things balance out maybe, and although the offside and foul penalisation laws arguably make things easier and more open for attackers in some ways now and Dijon did concede a lot as Puck points out, it is a mid-table opponent just like Leicester were).

    Off the top of my head other league performances I might put at 8+ out of 10 (though I haven't watched yet with the objective to give a score, only for entertainment, so I'd have to double-check) could be:
    Roberto Baggio vs Milan (h) 89/90 (especially would have to check this one: the video with Donadoni shown too might be the best IIRC)
    Baggio again vs Parma (h) 94/95
    Shevchenko vs Lazio (a) 99/00
    Veron vs Milan (h) 99/00 (same game as the Shevchenko performance).

    Obviously circumstances are different so it's case of looking at the impact given what might be expected, and just how impressive the player is in order to have the effect he does.

    In summary I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't put it as a major contender, but still score it in the range of some very good performances, even if it's hard to directly compare sometimes....but that if he'd played all game like he played the second half (even ending with the same stats) then it'd be closer to being in contention I think. Although Maradona vs Roma also ended the game better than he started it.
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I should probably clarify I was (or am) thinking more like an 8.5 than a straight 8. Maybe in the range of that Maradona performance from early 86/87 (vs Torino IIRC), and possibly edging ahead of Platini vs Bordeaux we mentioned before I think (not a league performance but EC of course).

    I think in comparison the Baggio vs Milan display from 89/90 would be getting a straight 8 at best probably, but maybe I'd have it ahead of Neymar's at half-time. Overall, hard to look past him not doing so much, even if he did show good skills and used them very usefully at times.

    I suppose I set up my own ratings system using the best ever WC games, so it's quite a high bar in that respect (performance wise and in terms of level/impact), and I'd be thinking it shouldn't be too easy to get a 9+. But of course there can be indecision about which performances can really get such a grade. Overall typically Italian newspapers are still less generous than me I think though lol (harder to impress, or receive a 9 or 9.5 from I think).
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I have just watched that maradona performance vs roma 87/88 you referenced and I must confess that I’m very unimpressed
    Literally in the first half he created two chances and I’m only classifying them as clear cut chances because I’m a fan of his
    A guy like leadleader would probably call it a half chance and there would be some validity to his claim

    1st chance created 1:38
    2nd chance created 4:36
    The first chance was great but the attacker was tightly marked so I don’t think he could’ve done much
    The second was a nice through ball but it was a tight angle for the ST to make a shot
    These are chances but not clear cut like Neymar laying the on ball on a plate for Di Maria And mbappe with no goalkeeper to beat
    Maradona left the strikers with still a lot of work to do IMO

    He did some ball juggling while tightly marked ok probably he deserves some marks for that

    The second half was pretty much more of the same stuff
    I think it is clear to see the game was very tight with hardly any space to dribble into unlike the Dijon match which was completely open(it’s very possible maradona would’ve wrecked havoc with such space but at the same time it is speculation)

    From the two performances it’s clear beyond doubt that Neymar was more influential.
    Literally all match maradona did one thing that had a wow factor attached to it
    The long ball assist to careca towards the end of the second half was a peach of a ball
    But that’s it
    Neymars second half was clearly devastating and even vegan who is maradonas top spin doctor on this forum would find it hard making a case that maradona vs roma warrants a comparison to Neymars 2nd half vs Dijon
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok mate, let's agree to disagree as I really don't want any kind of back and forth argument tbh. Thanks for the rep for my original post anyway. I had answered out of politeness since you asked me directly if I'm honest, not to start any debate I wanted to take part in.

    Maybe you missed the similar pass by Maradona after the assist for example though IIRC?

    I've not seen what grade that Roma game received from the Italian press yet as Vegan hasn't quite got there. But of course he would have left the pitch disappointed in the end as Roma won the game, even if he'd done enough to help draw or win it towards the end IMO.
     
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  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #433 carlito86, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018

    I know a game is won over 90 mins(or as they say in England it isn’t over until the fat lady sings)but this must surely be a contender for the best 45 mins of football ever played in a high profile match.
    He made 1assist+1 pre assist but really he could’ve possibly had 2 more
    Milan would’ve been home and dry with like 30 mins to spare if the strikers had put away those chances

    I think that first half performance was as close to football perfection as can possibly be
    @PDG1978 @PuckVanHeel @ko242 @celito
    I just finished rewatching the highlights of the 2005 CL final and was suprised at how many times dudek denied Shevchenko w
    Every time sheva went 1 v 1 dudek said Thou shalt not score LOL
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I agree in essence with the gist of what you say about the Kaka display (when I reviewed it, although having watched the full game in real time back then, I actually felt he played slightly better even in the second half/extra-time than I might have expected to think too, but yes he was really on his game 1st half and having a massive effect on the game and scoreline before the break).

    I hope my previous reply wasn't too abrupt, but just didn't really fancy trying to analyse, dissect and argue about the Maradona and Neymar games when it's a bit impossible to come to a satisfactory consensus about performances (in terms of scores out of 10 anyway). I suppose I do take into account the situation of the match and therefore the opportunity the player has to excel and to provide end product too, but I certainly wouldn't downplay Neymar's 2nd half too much as not many players would be likely to be able to do the same probably (not many players around today anyway - whether for example the aforementioned Felipe Anderson could do something at least similar is possible I guess in terms of a similar type player who can play a similar role), and he did win and score the free-kick very well in the 1st half too. He seemed to mix urgency and skill to an optimum sort of level in that second 45 minutes.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #435 carlito86, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
    Being directly involved in 6 goals in a single match vs any top tier side is elite territory (even if as puck had show Dijon had conceded an astronomical amount of goals over the course of the season)
    So I agree Neymar deserves a lot of credit and not many players from This current era could replicate that kind of performance

    I just feel personally from that game you referenced vs roma 87/88 that would be the exact type of performance maradona detractors would use to say he is overrated
    The performances that I have seen from him that would warrant possibly a 9 to 10 besides World Cup matches are

    Vs Crvena zvezda 1982/83 European Cup
    Vs Lazio 1984/85 Serie a
    Vs Boca 1980 when he put 4 goals past Gatti in the Argentine Primera División

    These are the type of performances imo that portray Diego maradona at his very best
    The roma one had great moments but at least from what I saw it wasn’t complete enough

    Who knows maybe it is the kind of performance you have to watch again to appreciate or maybe my expectations of maradona are unreasonably high
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I would expect I'd be rating those Maradona games ahead of the Roma one too most likely (I'm not sure any can be seen in full though can they?).

    I'd still easily give him 8.5 (maybe even 9 although I can have doubts) vs Roma, due to the great passes, and in general a skilful and progressive display, but like I say no problem to agree to disagree. Part of it can be indeed that you would rank the Neymar display higher among great performances. We might soon see what the Italian press made of the Roma performance (@Vegan10 was in the 87/88 season already when he was last posting the ratings from Guerin Sportivo etc), but maybe it can even be that the impression changes slightly based on the team result - if they won 3-2 and he had 3 assists with exactly the same plays and passes maybe it just seems more significant.
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yes indeed that is an important point that you’ve raised.
    Perhaps we can even apply this to Kaká in the 05 final
    if his team had won then the significance of his performance would’ve been maginified And perhaps even his overall legacy as a player would’ve been enhanced

    That 05 performance vs Liverpool is one of the best final performances i have seen .only matched in quality by savecivic vs Barcelona and arguably only surpassed by Eusebio vs Real Madrid 62 and Messi vs Manchester United 2011
    So he is in elite company for sure with regards to his performance

    Note
    There is a 20+ min highlight video of Barcelona vs Red Star Belgrade below


    recently I watched a performance of his vs Brazil in the CONCACAF gold cup in which he seems to be a pretty devastating dribbler and highly inventive
    The pre 1986 maradona never ceases to amaze.
     
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  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Messi got a 9 by CdS and Tutto for his game vs Espanyol yesterday.
    Think it's well deserved.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You are looking for this thread....
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I realise now Puck, you'd already posted about the Bergkamp 4 assists vs Leicester game yourself before I mentioned it on this thread! Sorry about that, but maybe good to have the discussion and highlight it again anyway I guess....

    A similar case (even vs a relegation team not just a mid-table one) but a good choice among Thierry Henry options (like Bergkamp obviously in 98/99, Henry too perhaps past his athletic best - however as well as scoring a hat-trick he shows 'as good as it gets' from him in general terms I'd suggest when it comes to control, vision, smooth dribbling and use of team-mates etc in this game) is Norwich (h) from 2004/05:

    Another one for him I remember thinking before (but not sure I or others have posted it, albeit I again am not checking before making this post) is Leeds (a) in the FA Cup from 2003/04:
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #441 PuckVanHeel, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
    Thank you. Nice picks! With a fraction of space Henry was a very diverse player indeed (I'd still say Pires and Bergkamp were more capable when Arsenal faced packed defenses).

    As trivia, now I see Henry again, I was also thinking yesterday how strange it is that a Modric or KDB (for ex.) played/play with #14 as a tribute while they were born after the original #14 had retired! For a Tigana, Ginola or Weah (whose #14 is now formally retired by Liberia) it is more logical. I know Henry himself said the shirt number wasn't only meant as a tribute perse, unlike him donning #12 for the French national team.

    Another Henry demolition here:
     
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  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Griezmann vs Juve. Lovely performance, better than his whole WC18
     
  18. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Given his physical state after that season at Atletico under Simeone, I think that he did pretty well. He raised his level match by match always doing a little better (it's true that he started from very low) physically and technically. All of that while adapting very well to Mbappé and the team's plans so that is about the technical/ tactical point of view, and it happened as he recovered slowly but well physically. This is what is impressive : the combination of all of that. First he didn't panic after the team's inaugural game when he had no legs and the team had not find its best shape and automatisms, continued to work to recover an acceptable physical state that permitted him to perform, then he has accepted, understood and perfectly interprated the role he had to play for the team to win, which implied to defend, at least by withdrawing and to be more playmaker or linkman as never before.
    The chances to see France crowned would have been way thiner without this Griezmann who was certainly less highlighted but who has proven his sense of dedication to the team and his intelligence. It's not everybody who would have accepted to somehow play the "second-fiddle" to a 20 years old, how good and fresh he can be, after having been the hero 2 years before.

    And even if not flashy to the camera, his numbers still show how important he was in this 2018 World Cup win with 1 goal and 1 assist (fk assist to Varane) in the 2-0 win over his Uruguayan friends in the quarter-finals, 1 assist (ck to Umtiti, 1-0) against Belgium in the semi-finals without talking of his 3 other goals, all pk's yeah but all converted into goals (a nice 3/3) against Australia, Argentina and Croatia, in the Final.
    He features on the scoreboard that is for a goal or an assist or both in all the 4 k-o stages matches. Plus, as seen previously, he has scored this pk in the first match which is always important to win and which was very, very complicated. A sort of decisive goal in the end of the match that he has scored not without difficulties as he was "burnt-out" or say exhausted, but a goal which was needed and a goal that he has scored.

    2018__WORLD C.__N__Australia_______2-1_____1--0 (pk)
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Peru____________1-0_____0--0
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Denmark_________0-0_____0--0
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Argentina_______4-3_____1--0 (pk)
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Uruguay_________2-0_____1--1 (20 m.+ with the help of the gk, it's true but he took that chance from quite far from the goals while having not really the legs)
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Belgium_________1-0_____0--1
    2018__WORLD C.__N__Croatia_________4-2_____1--0 (pk)


    Not bad. Denmark was a no-match. He was a bit fitter for the ko-stages like this.

    If Griezmann doesn't surpass himself (given all the efforts he already made at Atlético during the season) like he did in this "extra-month" of June, perhaps it's not the same story.
     
  19. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I dont think stats alone have any value, no matter on what stage, how great or how often he produces them. It's all about the context.

    I dont know why you keep mentioning his fitness when many players were in the same if not worse conditions. (I am not familiar with any injury that he might had right before wc). Thats a non argument. Modric also played ucl final, played three extra times in KO stages and all that while being 32 and playing in a role that demands much more from players.

    Not a single impressive goal nor assist (set pieces are the most overrated type of assists because in 80% of the case is just about putting the ball in fairly congested area and hope for the best). My memory of the games surely faded at this point, but i know what my impressions of him were at the times. Decent and that is about it. One could argue that he wasnt even top 5 player in his team. Pogba, kante, mbappe, lloris, hernandez, they all have a strong case to be better than griezmann, as well as Umtiti and Varane. I am not saying he isnt, but to me, he didnt stand out in any way.

    France offensively wasnt particularly impressive which is not something that goes in Antonies favor.
     
  20. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Thats less of a point tho. I just loved him yesterday, his passing was phenomenal, epsecially that set up to Diego Costas miss. I am sure people overlooked that pass, but that is football at its finest (weight of the pass, awareness, quickness of the decision, accuracy,..)
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    By no means his “best ever” but a very good performance with one of his greatest Madrid goals
    Zidane was such a balletic player and the actually faster than I originally remembered in 2001/02.
    a throughly enjoyable watch I found it
     
  22. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Dusan Tadic received a 10 from L’Equipe last night.

     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #448 PuckVanHeel, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    That's very rare for them (the ninth player to receive one) and I can't thoroughly disagree with it. As a performance itself it was worthy of a 9 at worst. He was the best player on the pitch, just shading it ahead of Frenkie de Jong (who was constantly shadowing Modric and played vs two/three players when on the ball).

    Then add in the following context...

    ... and a 10 is not something to strongly disagree with. The grade of 7 for Mazraoui is generous. The worst Real Madrid grades for Casemiro, then Nacho and 'diesel tractor' Kroos (dribbled past 6 times this game, more often than elite defenders in an entire season) is about accurate but the same grade for the left-back and Courtois is harsh.

    The pundits before the match (R. de Boer for example, who is also employed as youth trainer at Ajax) didn't really believe in this game. Varane had a header on the crossbar in the 2nd minute. The VAR intervention lasted 6 minutes, while the referee refused to take a look on the monitor himself.
     
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  24. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I was watching the Spurs game (Vertonghen and Lloris both excellent) but saw the highlights afterwards and both Tadic and

    We pieced together the others when Neymar got his I think:

    NEYMAR
    (PSG-Dijon,21e journée de Ligue 1, 2018, 8-0)


    CARLOS EDUARDO
    (Guingamp-Nice, 11e journée de L1, 2014, 2-7)

    LIONEL MESSI
    (Barcelone-Leverkusen, huitième de finale de C1 2012 (7-1) et Barcelone-Arsenal, quart de finale de C1 2010 (4-1))

    OLEG SALENKO
    (Russie-Cameroun, Coupe de Monde 1994, 6-1)

    ROBERT LEWANDOWSKI
    (Borussia Dortmund-Real Madrid, demi-finale de C1 2013, 4-1)

    FRANCK SAUZÉE
    (France-Grèce, finale de l'Euro espoir 1988, 3-0)

    LARS WINDFELD
    (Nantes-Aarhus, 32es de finale de la C3 1997, 0-1)

    BRUNO MARTINI
    (France-Grèce, finale de l'Euro espoirs 1988, 3-0)
     
  25. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Anything special about this? Couldn't find much footage.

    Looks just like a gift for winning a trophy for France really.
     

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