Define anti pro/rel? That was the conclusion of the Deloitte report. Unfortunately the report limited itself to D1. It is possible and exists where there are a critical mass of teams. And that's why I don't think we're there yet. There just aren't enough teams to put an effective system in place. Once MLS and USL say that's enough, we could look at alternative ways of teams earning their place in the bigger leagues. Instead of wishing for something that's not going to happen by magic, maybe you could think about practical ways it could happen within the real American landscape so that people may listen. At one point you were saying that what you wanted was for Garber etc to talk about how it would be done. Now you're back to smashing the system. USL took a big step in realigning their leagues and actually mentioning the possibility of promotion and relegation. Even though that may have seemed disingenuous to some, the very fact that it was included is a big step. And the lack of pro-rel hasn't stopped other teams from growing their fan bases. Forget MLS, I think USL, or a USL/NISA combo can turn itself into a very strong D2. That's not true at all. I'm such an elitist that my car license plate is NOTTS CO, representing a team that's 91st in the English pyramid. Dialectical materialism. Our owner is worth $75 million and says he couldn't afford to operate a club in the English Championship. There's no way a small "grass roots" club in England could survive in the top 2 flights in England so how could it work in the home of capitalism? I see you have some of the worst supported MLS cities there. If you are arguing that the only thing that's stopped Tulsa from growing as a soccer city is the lack of pro-rel then how come it hasn't stopped other cities from growing their local soccer fan base? Louisville has just upped the capacity for its new downtown soccer stadium from 10,000 to 11,200.
I wonder if, say, NBA fans get this riled up about their playoff setup or how their respective conferences are structured?
I'm boycotting the NHL until the Greenville Swamp Rabbits have a shot at being promoted to the first division.
Relegating the Roughnecks would kill them and no one is pumping enough money into Tusla Athletic to allow them to move up to NISA or NPSL pro. Besides, what's holding soccer back in Tulsa is shitty Roughnecks ownership and that occurs in all leagues regardless of pro/rel. Not kicking teams out of leagues for one bad year isn't holding your city back. Nope that's me. How? How will it help? How will kicking teams out of a league for one bad season help? How will asking teams to get ready for D1 in 100 days while they're playing on minor league baseball fields help? How is throwing TV contracts, stadium agreements, and the literal survival of teams up in the air each year going to help? MLS's business model hasn't ruined Tulsa. The fact that Tulsa offers little to nothing to MLS has ruined Tulsa. Being ranked the 69th media market behind such world-renowned metropolises like Knoxville, Albany, Mobile and Little Rock has ruined Tulsa's chances at MLS, NBA, NHL, MLB, or any other big league. OKC might be able to get an MLS team someday but even then it would be a huge uphill battle. It's not MLS's fault that some cities don't offer a lot on the business end. But this has all been explained to you. Great! Good viewership in towns during Saturday/Sunday mornings where there's little else on besides football preview shows and auto racing means that we're just revving for a movement to blow up the current system and force pro/rel on MLS. BTW, I put an asterisk on each market that either has or will have a MLS market within a 2 hour drive. NY gets two!!! Yes. Tulsa is an outlier, guess what else is also missing from that list? Cities like Denver, LA, Seattle, you know, places where timezones don't allow us to watch EPL as easily. I guess we're the hotbed for anti-pro/rel cartelipalooza or something.
Just to prove what an idiot I am. We're on our third manager of the year, Neil Ardley replacing Harry Kewell who replaced Kevin Nolan. It's a shame to waste a nice stadium.
Do you every have people assuming that you have a connection to Orange County's less famous theme park?
God help you if you ever write a dissertation and are asked to defend it. I'm sure as soon as one of the review board challenged you you'd call them a scumbag and storm out of the room. That's what debate is. You present your idea and then you're challenged and you need to present why you're side is right. So when you sit down to write this dissertation on implementing pro/rel, be aware that I will certainly challenge you because as of yet, no one has presented an actual case that answers: How to avoid the torrent of lawsuits that are bound to occur. How to ensure promoted teams are prepared for the next level without having to take on mountains of debt How to mitigate losses of those that are relegated How to overcome multi-year TV contracts at the national and regional level. Don't dismiss it as "digital is taking away TV" because valuations for live entertainment keep rising How to buy off owners at all levels who've paid franchise fees because those aren't going away How to deal with the cultural issue that the majority of fans attending soccer games don't know what pro/rel is and probably won't support a team that not only sucks but has to suffer the indignity of being kicked out of their league. How do you deal with stadium issues? If the Fire are relegated and a Chicago-based USL team is promoted, how do you work around the terrible contract with Bridgeview and Toyota stadium What happens to all ancillary things that MLS teams are currently investing in such as NWSL, USL teams and academies? If picking apart your argument upsets you so much, don't try to debate. It's actually pretty simple.
Here is how I would do it. First you have to do it through MLS, you can't have two competing leagues nor do you want to completely dump MLS. To much has gone in to start from scratch. So you will have to deal with the already entrenched institutions that are MLS. My vision is 3 divisions. First division is what we have now. Just the difference is with the chance of relegation. My thinking is there would be between 18 and 22 teams in it. Second division is still part of MLS. When you enter into the second division you pay an expansion fee and are expected to be running essentially a MLS operation. Now I anticipate a world where you are given time to set this up but the expectation is you have a plan to have a MLS caliber stadium, and an academy within 5-8 years of your acceptance into the second division. A franchise could buy their way straight into the second division but would need to be approved by MLS. You would have a lower salary cap, and a more regional schedule (although the league would still be national) to try and reduce costs. Initially you could have as many teams as wanted to join that could meet the criteria until it became to unwieldy and you could either raise the bar for entry, or start a connected 3rd division. Third division and lower would be a national confederation of regional leagues with a national tournament at the end. Imagine you would have current USL level teams down to PDSL but playing regionally to reduce costs. These clubs would not be in MLS and there would be a relatively low bar for admittance. There wouldn't be any automatic promotion into MLS but with no cap on expansion a successful club could always self promote. Transition: So far this is all pie in the sky stuff so this is how you could actually do it. First you would announce a transition period, minimum 5 years, could be longer. This gives clubs sponsors owners everyone a chance to adjust. During this period owners who wanted out get a chance to sell*. And it would insure that all current and new owners would be on board. This time would also give the league a chance to bring in more expansion cities with the understanding that they start in MLS2. These clubs could play in USL until the start or just sit it out. If you got a critical mass of teams (8)** you could start MLS2 without promotion. With Cincy and Nashville already accepted I would ask them to stay in USL during the transition period***. I would still let Becks in as the 24th team, there has been WAY to much drama with that already. Once the transition period is over you would relegate teams from MLS. The easiest would be to relegate 2 and go from 24-22. The next season MSL2 would start if it hasn't already and you would be off, relegating two from MLS and promoting two from MLS2 every season. *If the bottom completely dropped out and you couldn't find buyers, then this could be a chance to pull the plug. **If you didn't get enough teams to make up a MLS2 by the end of the transition then you could pull the plug ***Expansion groups would pay the MLS2 expansion fee. If the plug is pulled for one of the two previous reasons they could still pay the full price and go into MLS.
I notice that the Change.org petition lobbying the CAS & FIFA to implement pro/rel that started a year ago, is now less than 400 sigs away from its target of 1500. A petition to install 100% cork turf at Hurrell Field in Glen Ridge, is over 2000 after 4 weeks. Give the people what they want.
From my calculations, if 80% of soccer fans in the US enthusiastically support pro/rel and 1100 people have signed it, that means there are only about 1,320 soccer fans in the US.
Here's how I would do it... First, I'd take a two week vacation with USSF first lady Scarlett Johansson. Then, I would appoint Kyle Martino, Eric Wynalda, and Hope Solo as co-Presidents, and would look at whether it makes more sense to open SUM up to non-MLS investors, and/or have MLS owners at least partically divest from SUM, or decide that the best way for USSF to avoid future conflicts of interest would be to divorce the USMNT and USWNT from any close connections to SUM or part of any tv deal bundling nats rights together with MLS. Then, I would meet with Rocco Commisso to see if his terms for a half billion dollar commitment to pro soccer could be fully realized. I would give him the same "10 year runway" that USSF informally gave to MLS from 1996 to 2005... but that "runway" would be at the D2 level and require a commitment to the pursuit of an open system of Promotion/Relegation alongside NISA and NPSL Pro. First division would be what we have now, but with an MLS commitment to transition to individual franchises with individual owners who are responsible for their own player moves rather than having the league do it as a single entity. If they cannot sufficiently progress towards this aim by the 2026 World Cup, their D1 status will be questioned and possibly revoked. If sufficient progress is made towards a workable system including Promotion/Relegation with NISA and NPSL Pro by the time of the 2026 World Cup, a fair chance at getting D1 status would be considered for Commisso's D2 NASL, possibly alongside a D1 closed system MLS with more independent franchises than is currently the case. Second division and Third division would by granted with caveats that emphasize community based fan-owned options and would prioritize upfront commitments to the possibility of both promotion and relegation financial realities over lofty net wealth and stadium requirements that contribute to the stratification we already see in these two divisions. Also, if USL wants to continue to call itself "Championship" for D2 and "League One" as D3, reasonable moves towards Promotion/Relegation will need to be pursued by World Cup 2026, or they will be required to rebrand those leagues in a more truthful manner. Fourth division and Fifth division (and a possible Sixth division) would be created with D4 as at least a semi-pro division that currently would recognize NPSL Pro and could possibly recognize USL "League Two" as D4 if there is a separate division for teams similar to what NPSL has recently done. PDL and NPSL would be naturally recognized as D5 while UPSL clubs could be recognized as both D5 and D6. Transition: My transition period would roughly reflect an eight year "runway" with an eye towards the 2026 World Cup. Systemic changes are required in the years prior to 2026 to enable a smooth and fair transition to a significantly more open and less stratified system for non-MLS leagues alongside mostly independent individual franchises in a still closed MLS. That's all I got for now....
Thanks. Good read. I've often heard it claimed though, that MLS owners would sue if they stopped being D1, either via relegation or loss of sanction. Would you take steps to mitigate that risk, or do you run with it, viewing the potential turmoil as a worthwhile sacrifice? My proposed solution would be to divide MLS into two statuses of team: independent and traditional. Traditionalclubs keep the same benefits and restrictions as today. They aren't subject to relegation but they must conform to the single entities rules, budgets, salary limits and so on. Independents are free to do as they wish. No caps and they can compete for free agents, draft candidates and USMNT players, regardless of any single entity holding a player's "rights" but no access to the specific benefits of the single entity. The traditionals may be motivated to switch status due to the access to free spending and/or to remain competitive with existing wealthy independents. Likewise an independent can buy into the single entity as long as their application is successful. They may be motivated by stability or guaranteed D1 status.
Hi, sorry I've been neglectful. But, uh, this discussion is over. FIFA gave US and Mexico, two out of the three nations that spit the hardest in the face of pro/rel zombies, the World Cup. Thank you, here's your change. It will never be imposed on MLS from above. MLS will never adopt it voluntarily. That means another league will have to succeed against MLS, while promoting and relegating. This will never happen, because promotion and relegation is a ridiculous idea for a country with fewer teams than available spots in leagues. It's a ridiculous idea anyway, unless you're Real Madrid, but we've covered that. No pro league in the United States has ever promoted and relegated, and no pro league in the United States ever will promote and relegate. The Cosmopolitan League has done it on a play-for-tips basis in one metro area. That's as big as pro/rel can possibly get in the United States. Better enjoy it.
That half billion is peanuts when you consider the combined net worth of the laziest MLS owners like Kroenke, the Kraft family and Hauptman. I would pursue pro-rel from the second division downwards but you'd need a commitment from MLS not to cherry pick the bigger and more successful clubs as the second division develops. NISA and NPSL Pro barely exist. USL is the established second division and is building a third division which will include existing teams with soccer specific stadiums. Plus as the USL Championship grows they can always drop B teams into League One to provide stability. NISA and NPSL on the other hand barely exist. The chances of them being around in 2026 are speculative at best. You can argue that USL is part of the establishment, an MLS lackey, but the best way to change that is from the inside. There are already plenty of independent thinkers inside USL. Divisional standards can be changed to support fan ownership and maybe the $500 million investment from Rocco could be used to offset expansion fees in the form of a trust but the Championship needs suitable soccer stadiums. These have been shown to increase attendances, increase profits and create legitimacy. They don't need to cost $60 Or $70 million, I'm sure you can pop up four stands and some locker rooms for less than $20 million. You need financial stability. It's always been a problem in US Soccer. APSL 23 teams one season, 8 the next, 5 the season after that, similarly with the old ASL and the endless NASL relocations. Kyle Martino, Hope Solo and Eric Wynalda? You may as well hand the league to Commisso. Just another empire builder. I don't want to bad mouth the guy too much but his record of soccer investments has been sketchy and his choice of Hope Solo as a surrogate to bad mouth the USSF during the election is concerning. And what qualifications do Martino, Wynalda and Solo have besides they appear to agree with your views on pro-rel? Wynalda even believes playing in Minnesota in January will help the USMNT. No problem with SUM being opened up. It might quell some of the conspiracy theories. I think Dan makes a good point. USL could just go on expanding for years by adding regional conferences. You could end up with 10 conferences of 8 teams in the Championship without saturating the US market. No other country has the same geographical soccer landscape as the US. In Russia, Brazil and China teams tend to be concentrated in particular regions. Finally, finally, finally, I don't think a lot of semi-pro teams would even want promotion. Kingston Stockade would have to move 40 miles to find a bigger stadium, unless they built their own. What's the point of a community club if you can't serve a community?
How is this - well, "fair" has nothing to do with capitalism, but how or why would this be enforced? If the owner of the team wants to join, can the league keep the club a prisoner, as the NASL tried to do during its death spiral? Or, how would you forbid MLS from putting in a new team, and doing to the smaller team what Toronto FC did to the Toronto Lynx?
Yes because it's never succeeded and everyone it's been tried hates it. Oh wait actually it's the complete opposite.