Imagine the laughter we had after Manchester City first poached dilrosun away from Ajax and didged him this summer, not even think he could fetch some money by putting him out on loan like the rest of their cattle, so the kid ended up this summer at Hertha and blossomed up so much he now is added to the Orange selection. Man, am I tempted to mail those dicks the Orange selection with his name bolded.
Notts County just fired Harry Kewell after 2 months in charge. No time to settle in when you're 22nd in the table.
I agree it wouldn't work in today's climate. But Louisville are doing all the right things to grow the club with or without MLS. As I said in the 28 thread in so many words, MLS could be an umbrella under which the professional game can grow, or it could be a predatory organization that keeps skimming the cream off the lower divisions.
First, it's not a "dubious survey." Not at all. It's a simple feasibility study commissioned by those who'd like to see it happen. For several years, anti-Pro/Rel-ers asked for a study like this, then when it happens, it still isn't good enough for you. Why? Because NOTHING will EVER be good enough for you. Frankly, the fan survey itself is likely to be the most accurate of its contents, none particularly untrue or misleading, but none particularly earthshattering, either. Funny how you and the anti-Pro/Rel lunatic Dan Loney go apeshit nuts criticizing the Deloitte Report, yet you have little/nothing to say about all those feasibility studies performed for MLS over the years by the good folks over at CS&L, with some stadium construction findings that could be considered far more dubious than anything you could accuse Deloitte of claiming. Don't know if you noticed, but the wet blanket put on Louisville's known NBA aspirations comes from the contention that inclusion in MLS is a better bet and a good reason to build a soccer stadium of around 10k, expandable to MLS specs than the lofty pursuit of the NBA.... cuz gee, all the cool kids are doing/have done it.... yet not a shred of skepticism on your side, even from you. https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...rts-team-hunden-strategic-partners/785629002/ https://www.bizjournals.com/louisvi...we-shouldnt-give-up-on-the-nba-coming-to.html I have no doubt that a majority of American soccer fans who speak Spanish as their native language do regularly follow Liga MX on free local tv. It's easier to see on Univision during the afternoons than it is for most fans of EPL clubs for early morning matches, yet from my experience, most non-Mexicans don't really follow Liga MX all that much, which includes some I've talked with from Guatemala and El Salvador and Venezuela who ironically might be more likely to follow MLS... in Spanish. This is why I refer to you as a TROLL and will probably have to put you on ignore again if I don't want to be distracted by your eternal anti-Pro/Rel bile. Calling Pro/Rel advocates like myself "truthers" insults and tars an entire viewpoint you choose to know nothing about. A viewpoint shared by a majority of NPSL owners, the very same owners trying to appeal to latinos by scheduling Liga MX youth teams... Maybe some MLS fans in some MLS cities who only follow one of "the big five" "don't give a crap," not to be confused with MLS fans in MLS cities who most certainly do care, fans who follow Stoke City, Aston Villa, QPR, Swansea City, Norwick, West Brom, Fulham, Southampton, and Crystal Palace... hell, let's even throw in fans of never relegated from EPL Everton (me included). I have not just a Deloitte study, I also have in evidence several polls on ESPN.com and even a Fox Soccer poll in which the sports journos actively downplayed the results... So, where's yours? Where's your link, what's your evidence that nobody here "gives a crap?" After all, if you want to call me "Tulsa Ted" and regularly make fun of the time I accurately observed a number of "kids in Messi shirts" over the course of several months at various amateur, college, and pro games in Tulsa, maybe you should hold yourself to the same standards of accountability you claim are required of me. I'll say it again, just as I did on the previous page: "It is possible to simultaneously support a club with no real chance of being relegated and still deeply appreciate a system of Promotion/Relegation that allows for the rise of a Bournemouth or Leicester City and the fall of once mighty Aston Villa and Stoke City..." If I was the one who said that, how would you have responded? Even he? Really? It's been my experience that whenever I speak with English fans in this country who are actually from England, whether they're ex-pats or visitors/tourists, they are rather dry and diplomatic about it when it comes to the subject of Pro/Rel in the States. But if you dare ask them about ending Promotion/Relegation in their own country, you will experience a very different sentiment.... and I bet you didn't even dare bother follow up with the Wolves fan on whether he wants EPL to "drop pro/rel," now did you? A Wolves fan from overseas' opinion on the pursuit and implementation of Promotion/Relegation in the United States of America doesn't mean nearly as much to me as the dreams of "a bunch of Yanks sitting at a bar 4,000 miles away from Wolverhampton singing you'll never walk alone," especially if many of those Yanks will regularly pay top dollar to fill NFL stadiums to watch meaningless summer friendlies. I'd far rather have those fans paying to come to games than the troubling number of MLS season ticket holders and well moneyed corporate types showing up disguised as empty seats in the very best sections of our vaunted soccer specific stadiums..... In the most snidely obnoxious ways possible, I might add... And I can say with complete confidence that there is absolutely nothing I could ever say and no term paper I could ever write that would change your perpetually closed mind on the subject, because you've been nothing but a condescending little anti-Pro/Rel prick about it for too many years, to the point where it's no longer worth it to argue with any of the anti-Pro/Rel flat earthers of Bigsoccer. And yet, here we are... https://theathletic.com/373917/2018...king-for-promotion-and-relegation-in-the-u-s/ And my morning bowel movements know more about lower division soccer in this country than you ever will. The #ProRelForUSA movement is far more consequential to the future of American soccer than this outdated Bigsoccer forum and it's one-sided blog with its handful of perpetual mods who never change and unresponsive supermods. The people I meet on #ProRelForUSA and other twitter hashtags like it represent a far better cross section of American soccer fans than this forum in general, and certainly this thread in particular pretending to be an All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA The new car smell of MLS's new expansion teams can be intoxicatingly characterized as "thriving," but the TV ratings you pretend to be an expert about tell me otherwise... http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/04/...cer-tv-viewing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true If it's just a "stupid gimmick issue," then why do you seem so threatened by it? If the regular FANS and SUPPORTERS of Liga MX and EPL who consistently garner noticeably better TV ratings than MLS are nothing more than "Eurosnobs" unworthy of anything but derision, why would you expect any of us to support a local MLS team, let alone a lower division franchise with no chance to advance to the highest level possible without a billionaire sugar daddy and a government subsidized stadium? See also "Sacramento." Promotion and Relegation: Another Reason to Love English Soccer September 30, 2018 by Paul Gerald
I'd just like to point out out that while most polls show that most Americans would like to see pro/rel in the domestic leagues, when those same fans are asked the question "are we ready?", a sizable majority say "no". Including Deloitte as it happens.
@USRufnex Have you considered putting @Dan Loney @Potowmack and @CrazyJ628 on ignore? On a separate note, you must be delighted that USL has raised the possibility of pro-rel as part of its restructuring.
Most American soccer fans, including myself, are natural pragmatists who agree we can't completely open the system from top to bottom right this very minute.... Duh. So, you'll agree with me that the Deloitte study is not "dubious" when it matches your perpetually argumentative against Pro/Rel in America narrative? Good to know.
The people who "reject MLS on principle" will continue to do so regardless of what the league does, unless it moves wholesale to London and the English Midlands. There's a certain demographic of American soccer fans who will always find some excuse or other to reject the league. It's pointless to even try and make them happy.
Are you kidding me? I've tried putting various Pro/Rel haters on ignore for months at a time. What good does it ever do, and who is left over? You? Barry? Why can't those people who regularly insult, berate, and ridicule the majority of American fans who want Pro/Rel simply allow those of us who actually want it to happen, to be able to discuss it? When I go to a Chicago Fire forum, I don't see a couple of diehard Fire fans outnumbered by a bunch of haters whose "opinions" (aka trolling) are defended by fans of other teams.... Replace "a couple of diehard Fire fans" with a couple of fans (from the majority of American fans) who want Pro/Rel, and you might actually see the problem of why so many American soccer fans (several I've reconnected with through twitter) don't even bother with Bigsoccer anymore. They stopped posting years ago... Besides, the front door of this site is Bigsoccer.com. When you enter the site, the ONLY voice of American soccer is the notoriously anti-Pro/Rel voice of Dan "twitter spamming" Loney. I mean, I used to see Dennis Crowley on the forum regularly posting among many others with more diverse opinions, but those days are long gone... pity. So, that's it. The end. Completely sucks that a once reasonably diverse cross-section of fans has been completely co-opted by those MLS apologists who want to cleanse bigsoccer of any and all positive talk about Pro/Rel for this country.... for America. Nothing more than Pro/Rel branding / English window dressing. Nothing of substance is changing. There will still be "financial" Pro/Rel the same way it's been for decades, except with MLS wannabe's paying top dollar to enter "USL Championship" with no chance of actually playing their way into the top division of MLS. And if they fail to get one of Garber's golden expansion/relocation tickets, they'll voluntarily "relegate" themselves because once you take possible promotion to MLS out of the equation, there's no place to go but down.... see Rochester... see Wilmington...
Those fans exist, but they certainly aren't a sizable minority, let alone the majority. That won't stop you from stereotyping us, though. Bullshit. If the right MLS situation happened in Tulsa, I'd be a season ticket holder. Work towards changing the system. It doesn't have to happen this very minute, but dammit, somebody please take the freaking single entity training wheels off MLS so this ongoing anglo-fication of american pro soccer can move forward with actual substance and independent clubs rather than operator/investors using "United," "FC," and an "Eszett" as mere window dressing... If the EPL was a closed shop, would Michael Eisner have bought Portsmouth? Hell to the no, he wouldn't have. #ProRelForUSA #BigsoccerSucks
Yes MLS is a better "bet" in Louisville because it's cheaper. It's still not going to happen for Louisville as their city isn't growing that much, it's surrounded by much larger and richer markets that will have MLS teams in the near future and, for the same reason they're not getting an NBA team, there's no ownership group. Louisville missed the MLS boat 15 years ago. Sorry about their luck. BTW stadium financing is one of the many many reasons why pro/rel ain't happening anytime soon. Even in much ballyhooed Louisville, if the "Purples" get relegated to USL League 1, I could see a city council person suing the club since the city gave them tax breaks for a USL/ML....sorry can't stop giggling...S stadium. We've already seen the governor elect of Ohio do the only good thing he's done in his entire political career by suing MLS and the Crew over the attempt to relocate out of Ohio. Imagine the Crew getting relegated after the city gives them some sales tax kickbacks for a new stadium in the arena district. Hello lawsuits. The majority of Americans watch Liga MX. The numbers bear that out. Like a lot of the white guys who wank over pro/rel, you're so quick to put caveats on LigaMX. Most Americans watch Liga MX period. End of story. Again, where's the outrage among the white pro/rel brigade at Liga MX's run-arounds to avoid pro/rel. Where's the outrage that NWSL is holding itself back by not instituting pro/rel. It's almost like the movement has a blind spot for certain groups. The Deloitte survey, besides being poorly sourced still came to the conclusion that pro/rel isn't feasible at this time. The market is making it less feasible as the days go by. Also Mess...and I can't stress this enough...plays for a team that will never be relegated unless its a Juve situation. That's the point. Fans sitting across and ocean watching the biggest teams in Europe while calling for pro/rel in the states are hypocrites. You're spending time watching Man U buy its way to the top most years and you're willing to say pro/rel is great! Screw that. You're sitting on another continent and don't have to see your club go down and fight insolvency because they play in a system that only rewards the rich. And the thing is, in the US, we don't have throngs of fans willing to pony up money to save said relegated club. We don't have the golden parachute system in place. Yes. You're a truther because you don't want to hear that or explain how to implement pro/rel. That's what a debate is. I worked in sports for 10 years. I have been a part of TV negotiations for a college sports league and a pretty big college basketball team. I can give you, Ben, Ted, or any number of the pro/rel brigade a list of things that you'd have to overcome in order for pro/rel to even be partly feasible and you all dismiss them. You mistake a standings gimmick as the reason for soccer's popularity rather than acknowledging that soccer was popular for a century in Europe. You dismiss that the most popular league in the US basically doesn't have pro/rel in the traditional sense. For you all, it's a fetish revolving around punishing fans for one bad year or anger that you don't live in a market that anyone is willing to invest in.
I can't see any reason why MLS should completely change its structure just so a minor league market like Tulsa can have a chance of seeing its team in MLS from time to time.
What's against it? Maybe in absolute numbers they would be falling behind, but %wise they could be far more healthy.
Okay here we go. Owners won't go for it first of all. Orlando City (which was valued at $500 million) would see it's valuation tank due to not being in the top level. Same with San Jose San Jose and Orlando are also the No. 6 and No. 18 ranked TV markets in the country. Let's assume they're replaced by Tulsa (58) and Louisville (49), the MLS TV contract would immediately be less valuable since it's negotiated based on what major markets are locked down. Staying on TV, both OCSC and San Jose would have to renegotiate their regional TV contracts, assuming they don't get sued into oblivion. Tulsa and Louisville currently do not have a Division I-capable stadium at their disposal. Ticket prices for both promoted teams would jump substantially as would the overall cost of doing business. This would require a lot of debt in order to quickly move from D2 to D1. Conversely, San Jose and OCSC (who already saw a significant dip in attendance and ticket revenue because they sucked ass this year) would now have to restructure their entire business model to reflect new ticket pricing and substantially less attendance. This is assuming both teams don't get sued by their municipalities for any tiny amount of tax abatement or infrastructure help they got in the construction of two brand new MLS stadiums. SJ and OCSC sell off their MLS-level players because they can't afford them. The other costs of doing business such as OCSC's women's team (Orlando Pride) and the academies are the first things liquidated in the fire sale associated with relegation. SJ and OCSC hopefully are promoted back to MLS within two years, assuming their ownership is willing to eat the substantial business losses associated with relegation. On the flip side, now deeply in debt Tulsa and Louisville have one year to try and stay up. If they don't they're back in the minor leagues but with the added burden of substantial debt. That's not addressing the expansion fees, an in-depth look at TV contracts, ticket pricing, etc. Nor is it addressing why it's okay to arbitrarily limit the size of a league just so a standings gimmick can be forced upon it. Who's enforcing it? How big is their legal retainer fund because they're going to need it. The better way is for either Louisville and Tulsa to build their way up and make USL a competitive league with MLS or do like Cincinnati did and make a case for your inclusion into MLS. Pro soccer is really only a decade past the point where it almost went away overnight. Promotion and relegation, despite being completely unnecessary, would add so much instability that it would hurt the game here. We're not talking about the Netherlands, England or Mexico where soccer has been the dominant sport for 150 years.
Lest you forget, 7 times as many people would watch MLS if Tulsa Athletic had the opportunity to one day play in MLS. Who wouldn't want to see 490,000 fans crammed into Mercedes Benz Stadium?
Do you follow a European team? If so you're an exception. People who watch a higher standard of soccer aren't suddenly going to start slumming it. Anyway, funny you should mention Crowley, I'm sitting in a cafe in Kingston right now. It's a historic town but the seafood restaurants that dominate the riverfront appear to be closed for the season. Otherwise there's nothing here. It's smaller than the isolated market town my parents live in in England. But if I moved here I would watch Stockade as well as NYCFC of course because believe it or not it's possible to enjoy a game of football without promotion or relegation being an exception. I think that the USL even mentioning pro-rel is a huge step forward for the most adamant pro-rel supporters. First of all though you would need a critical mass of clubs and we're nowhere near that. USLC could easily handle 80 clubs out of which we could see half a dozen Cincys. There's no reason that the top USL teams can't be as big or bigger the smaller MLS teams. I'll post my ideas later but MLS will remain aloof of any pro-rel scenario until it makes commercial sense. And there's nothing you can do to "force" it. The CAS case seems to be going nowhere. If it is heard it won't be this year.
It's all about history. The term "Coloured" was used at a time when it was conventional wisdom that people of color lacked intelligence. So while the term itself was not considered racist at the time and is still a lot better than other words it still has a lot of derogatory and negative connotations. If you choose to use words with those negative connotations because you don't believe in "PC BS" you can do that but don't pretend like other people have no reason to be annoyed, offended or even pissed off over it.
Five Premier League clubs, including Chelsea, face threat of transfer ... https://www.telegraph.co.uk › Sport › Football Vertaal deze pagina 2 uur geleden - Five Premier League clubs are facing the threat of being hit with a transfer ban as part of Fifa's investigation into the signing of foreign players ...
In fairness, I did create a thread a couple of years ago, specifically for discussing the implementation of pro/rel but it didn't prove popular. At this point, I feel this line of discussion has gone way beyond any tenuous connection to pro/rel.
Who are you beseeching to take the training wheels off? Surely not the investors who bought shareholdings in DC United and Orlando City at $480 million valuations. MLS will buy in to pro-rel when they can make So you're suddenly a fan of billionaire investors?
This is the plan for the near future D1: MLS: 28 teams D2: USL Championship: 36 teams (8 B teams?), 2 regional conferences D3: USL League One: 12 teams, 1 national league NASL: 4 teams (Puerto Rico doubtful), 1 national league No official D level sanctioning D0?: NISA: 4 teams, 1 national league NPSL Pro: 10 teams, 1 national league D4: USL League Two: 79 teams, 11 regional conferences NPSL: 100 teams minus those who join NPSL Pro, 14 conferences in 4 regions Other: ASL: 168 teams, 5 regional conferences (includes 27 expansion teams plus the 14 teams that took a hiatus in Fall 2018. The Western Conference has a Premier division and two regional conferences with pro-rel). UPSL: 237 teams (varies daily), 29 conferences, some with pro-rel, some with only 1 team in them. This is where I think we need to get to before we see an open pyramid below MLS: Pro-Leagues Championship: 80-100 teams, 8 regional conferences (top 2 of each in playoffs) League One: at least 40 teams split into at least 4 conferences (top 2 plus bottom Championship teams in promotion playoffs) League One and Two can be balanced out later through pro-rel. Semi-Pro Leagues Semi-pro (long season) League Two: 200+ teams split into multiple regional conferences Semi-pro/am (short or split season) National Conference: 500+ teams split regionally and hierarchically How the semi-pro teams join the fully pro ranks tbd. Remember it took 99 years in England. I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
Yeah, if you’re looking for a league that’s friendly to the “little guy”, I’m not sure why you’d look at the EPL and the EFL as your role model. Pro/rel advocates talk about “sporting merit”, but in England that really just comes down to the richest sugar daddy. Obviously, top flight English soccer is popular with many American fans. But, that popularity has little to do with the churn at the bottom of the EPL.
would those players be sold or would they go into a draft for the remaining teams and the new teams since their contracts are actually held by MLS not SJ and OCSC?
1. The USL has said that the Championship will go to 3 regional conferences once they get to 36 teams. We'll see if that actually happens this year. There are 9 MLS2 teams in the league for 2019 with the addition of Loudoun United plus RGVFC and Reno which also function very similarly. 2. USL League One has 10 teams for 2019 and at least 12 for 2020 but the plan is for more teams divided into 3 conferences. We'll see if they achieve that but it is the plan. 3. I don't think the NASL has even applied for USSF sanctioning at any level other than their original D2 request. 4. NISA has applied for sanctioning as a D3 league.