Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And oh @PDG1978, you might want to download it before it gets deleted.


    I guess it first needs to be established how/where he measures up against others of his own generation/era (as in other decades trophies =/= better).

    One of his strongest points is his (open play) assist rate throughout the decade for different teams, in different competitions - I'm sure about that, and it was converted into finals. At a cumulative rate also a not too bad scorer:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-players-of-the-1990s.2037864/
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-players-of-the-1990s.2037864/#post-34982720

    I heard on an OPTA podcast he had the highest goal involvement for the 1990s World Cups (1990 - 1998) and also for the European Championships. I'd certainly place him among the better players in an orange shirt, and yes what he did against the better teams and when his team bombed out matters as well.

    An old thread from 2006 mentions he'd get points for showing 'consistency' at top level teams throughout the period
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-player-of-the-90s.330506/page-2


    OK thanks, nice photo :thumbsup:

    I know you know this, but it wasn't only directed at you (there's a video series called 'legends of the premier league' and I noticed only one, a journalist, was really aware of that it changed mid-career).
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Overview, including their overall ranking (not mine, the one by VI - I will also try to find the 1999 edition). In bold the ones which are typically put in the top three by lists and people.


    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes) - #43
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht) - #40
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam) - #30
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout) - #17

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen) - #47
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague) - #42
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam) - #38
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam) - #36
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam) - #31
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn) - #24
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam) - #20
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen) - #15
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam) - #9
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam) - #7

    Defensive midfielders:

    Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam) - #41
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht) - #28
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo) - #26
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde) - #22

    Central midfielders:

    Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven) - #27
    Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede) - #18
    Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo) - #10
    Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens) - #5

    Attacking midfielders:

    Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam) - #44
    Ronald de Boer (1970, Hoorn) - #25
    Rafael van der Vaart (1983, Heemskerk) - #23
    Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond) - #19
    Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht) - #8
    Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam) - #4
    Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam) - #1


    Wing players:

    Gerald Vanenburg (1964, Utrecht) - #46
    Coen Moulijn (1937, Rotterdam) - #45
    Sjaak Swart (1938, Muiderberg) - #37
    Johnny Rep (1951, Zaandam) - #34
    Marc Overmars (1973, Emst) - #33
    Piet Keizer (1943, Amsterdam) - #16
    Rob Rensenbrink (1947, Amsterdam) - #11
    Arjen Robben (1984, Bedum) - #3


    Center forwards:

    Huug de Groot (1890, Rotterdam) - #49
    Ruud Geels (1948, Haarlem) - #48
    Roy Makaay (1975, Wijchen) - #35
    Beb Bakhuys (1909, Pekalongan) - #32
    Patrick Kluivert (1976, Amsterdam) - #21
    Ruud van Nistelrooij (1976, Oss) - #14
    Robin van Persie (1983, Rotterdam) - #12
    Marco van Basten (1964, Utrecht) - #2

    Inside forwards:

    Willy Brokamp (1946, Chevremont) - #50
    Kees Rijvers (1926, Breda) - #39
    Abe Lenstra (1920, Heerenveen) - #29
    Faas Wilkes (1923, Rotterdam) - #13
    Dennis Bergkamp (1969, Amsterdam) - #6



    The next one to make bold would be Frank Rijkaard I think, but decided against it.

    Will now do the team of the century thing.
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Great work overall Puck. The surprising overall placements (seen for the first time now, but I think presenting it as a countdown by position was a good way to do it, and I know you feel it makes more sense that way too), to me, are probably Krol, Neeskens and Moulijn in terms of how low they are, and Van Bommel in terms of how high he is.

    I'm not thinking purely in terms of how I'd see it myself, but what genuinely was a surprising number to see beside their names based on perception of how they'd be regarded within the Netherlands (so even discounting within the rest of the world).

    You've made each of the posts interesting to look at, and this thread should be a great reference to people interested in the history of Dutch players.

    Ok, perhaps Robben and Bergkamp are surprising too (if one was in the top 3 maybe I'd guess Dennis but then again it isn't massively surprising after the last few years and you revealed that one as far as Robben goes anyway, while Bergkamp's actual placing isn't surprising as such even if some like Hiddink made comments in the past seemingly suggesting they'd go higher), and maybe the fact Wilkes/Lenstra are not particularly high but I think the approach has not been to glorify the oldest legends by default even if recognising them by including them of course.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe I need to copy the introductions as well, but here it is:

    --------------------------

    Beyond these basic qualities, it is mainly the 'self' of the goalkeeper. Thus FRANS DE MUNCK had a fantastic appearance. A handsome guy who was completely dressed in black and therefore got the nickname of 'black panther'. I do not really know him throughout, but I do know that Frans de Munck managed all parts of the goalkeeper's section, the ones relevant in his own time, well to excellent.

    I grew up with EDDY PIETERS GRAAFLAND. As a young boy I always watched breathlessly at Ajax's training, how he kept the balls out of the goal. Later he left for Feyenoord, where he was the first Dutch goalkeeper to win the European Cup. What I especially found class of Eddy Pieters Graafland, is how he went along with the development of football. He was the only one who, from the beginning of the fifties until the first major international triumph in 1969, experienced the professionalisation of Dutch top-class football from A to Z and managed to maintain himself during that process.

    JAN VAN BEVEREN is definitely the most elegant and technically perhaps the best goalkeeper we have ever had. It was therefore a pity that he had to miss the WK'74 due to an injury. If Jan van Beveren had played then, he would have received even more international recognition.

    HANS VAN BREUKELEN was always there at the right moments. He was not the greatest talent, but a goalkeeper with an extremely high return. Anyone looking at history will see that he played a key role in two historical victories. Both during the European Cup Final against Benfica won by PSV and in the EC-finals of 1988 Hans van Breukelen stopped a decisive penalty.

    Although EDWIN VAN DER SAR is still active, he has already earned his spurs well. He has reached an age when he can only get even better as a goalkeeper. Of virtually all the specific qualities of the four other nominees, something can be found with him. Edwin van der Sar is very complete.

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.doelman.html

    ROEL WIERSMA, for example, was the exponent of the right back to 1965. A solid defender who put his man out, gave back cover to the right-half and the right winger and had a simple but effective play-in pass. Someone who was strong in the air and had a good tackle and sliding. A type of player that you could always count on as a team.

    WIM SUURBIER was the first modern back. A former right winger who became defender, but nevertheless continued to think offensively. His extra quality was that he was one of the first to be able to cover and defend very well in advance. That also showed his insight. A quick defender, with an exceptionally professional attitude.

    SJAAK SWART has become famous as a right winger, but proved to be excellent as a right back in various major international competitions. Especially based on his insight. In addition, one of the few football players I know who can perfectly head the ball over his 'right shoulder' as a right-footed player.

    DANNY BLIND was the first right back that was continually upgraded from its basic position. First back, then central defender and finally playmaker. A defensive all-rounder, who could also play very well the ball.

    RUUD GULLIT as a right back seems a bit strange, but it is just a good position for someone who can do everything. Ruud is fast, strong in the air, positionally strong and inspires an enormous amount of awe. Just like Wim Suurbier, Sjaak Swart and Danny Blind an excellent asset for a team that has to play offensive.

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.rechtsback.html

    COR VAN DER HART was the first complete defender from the Dutch history. A general with an enormous appearance. This property also applies to all players that I have nominated for this position. Cor van der Hart also had the best ball kicking technique in the Netherlands in his time. Someone who was not super fast, but had an enormous insight and therefore everyone stayed one step ahead. Strong in the air and strong in the one-on-one situations.

    Iron RINUS ISRAEL broke through late, but developed into a superball player at DWS and Feyenoord. A defender who in all respects had more quality than others of his generation and was therefore respected by everyone. Someone with a great competition mentality. Hard as nail, but also very smart. As far as I know, Rinus Israel has never been sent out of the field. This indicates that he felt exactly where the limit was in a match.

    BARRY HULSHOFF is the only 'front-stopper' in my list of central defenders. A superprof, who started in the middle, but later in the defense center made the world top. Had to miss the World Cup in 1974 due to an injury, but can still look back on a career full of highlights. Barry Hulshoff did not have a perfect long kick for a central defender, but did have a very effective play-in pass and distribution. As he had a very functional technique and positionally very strong. Barry Hulshoff was absolutely unbeatable in the air. A footballer who has made the most of his potential.

    RUUD KROL is of course not the record international for nothing. He was among the primary players in the world both as a left back player and as a central defender. Ruud Krol has been the forerunner of a series of top defenders who have moved to the defense center via the back site. From back to center defender and from center defender to captain; Ruud Krol was the best of its kind in that respect. Someone with a lot of talent and always willing to learn even more. He was not only strong in coverage and marking players, but also had a good shot from the second line in an offensive way. A great all-rounder.

    FRANK RIJKAARD is one of the very best footballers the Netherlands has produced. He could handle all [defensive] positions and mastered a lot. Frank was fast, strong in the air, able to create goals and take tough action. Moreover, he was top technically. A very nice all-rounder to see.

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.centraleverdediger.html


    To be continued.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    KEES KUYS is, just like Roel Wiersma on the right, the classic back on the left. Mentally strong, defensively sober and having a good functional technique. A player on whom the team could always count.

    COR VELDHOEN was also a typical right-footed player on the left. Someone who developed perfectly in that spot and for years kept a left-footed defender from the team in Feyenoord and the Dutch national team. A player who retained the advantage of the right back and camouflaged the natural shortcomings he had on the left. As a left back Cor Veldhoen has passed the transition phase to modern football very well.

    Record-international RUUD KROL has also become a fantastic central defender thanks to his experiences as a left back. One of his extra qualities was that he was both defensive and attacking in two ways, because through all those extra training his left foot was just as strong as right. He was, just like later, Danny Blind a defensive ball player with a lot of charisma. A real professional and a fantastic colleague.

    ADRI VAN TIGGELEN was in Orange the modern version of Cor Veldhoen. No one had to try to pass him through, so his opponent was automatically pushed out. He appeared to be an emergency solution for the European Championship '88 on the left, but he was living proof in Germany of the thesis that a team is as strong as its weakest link. Because the so-called emergency solution on the left during the tournament grew into a very strong link. Adri van Tiggelen was not immediately a spectacular player, but someone who had a very high return in my eyes.

    FRANK DE BOER is the product of the new generation. Footballing excellent and just like Danny Blind and Ruud Krol started as back. Like his predecessors, he did so well in that position that he later promoted to the central defender. Moreover, a very well-worn footballer. Frank is not one of the fastest, but he knows almost every problem by solving his insight. What I also really like about Frank de Boer is that you can always recognize the enthusiast in him when he is playing.

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.linksback.html

    I have never seen PUCK VAN HEEL play, but someone who has played continuously in the Dutch national team for 13 years and was with 64 caps for years the record-international, belongs in this list. A born Rotterdammer, who is one of the pivotal Feyenoord figures in history.

    WIM JANSEN is another fantastic football player from the Feyenoord school. A footballer with whom I have played soccer from the UEFA youth onward. I do not really know a player who has been stronger in the positional game ['positiespel', 'juego de posicion' as Wilson likes to rebrand it...]. Very unobtrusive and discrete, but incredibly effective. Wim was a footballer of whom it was said that if he did not participate there was something wrong with the team. Everyone who played with him, and I mean especially the more spectacular footballers, ran into problems when he was not there. He controlled everything. He could defend, score, combine well and pass well.

    ARIE HAAN also meets all the conditions that a top-notch right-half has to meet. How versatile he was, turned out to be when he had to play as an attacking midfielder in important European Cup matches at Ajax and during the World Cup in 1974 with the Dutch national team as last man. He was also good at those positions. Someone with not only a devastating shot from the second line, but also from the third line.

    JOHAN NEESKENS has been a player that everyone will always remember. Through his dedication and hunting on the ball he spoke enormously to the imagination of his fellow players and the audience. Johan was especially strong in the small spaces, which can only be the result of a lot of insight. Someone who has had a great career.

    JAN WOUTERS is the more recent version of Wim Jansen. He only broke through later, but would make up that 'backlog' in an impressive way. Both at Ajax, Bayern Munich, PSV and the Dutch national team which became European champion in 1988, he was a solid value thanks to his excellent positional play and functional technique. "

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.rechtshalf.html

    JAN KLAASSENS is not very well known to many people, but was a real controller in the midfield. A physically strong player, who knew what he could and could not do and had an enormous scope. For years a permanent force for the Dutch national team.

    WIM VAN HANEGEM is actually a counterpart to Jan Klaassens. A player with a golden left leg and an exponent of my idea of how football should be played. Someone who is never too early and never too late, but always on time. A player who dominates the ball as has rarely been shown. With football players like Wim van Hanegem, the 'WM system', which I chose for the Orange of the Century, would still be very effective today. Because it is a footballer who sees it with his eyes closed [indeed literally, PvH].

    GERRIE MÜHREN is maybe the best technician the Netherlands has ever had. The unique thing about him is that he always puts his unique qualities into the service of the team. Moreover, I have rarely experienced anyone, who despite his walking ability still maintains his technical skills. Usually you see if someone has to do a lot of physical work and put a foot in, that the control over the ball becomes less. Gerrie is an exception to that.

    WILLY VAN DE KERKHOF is more the type Jan Klaassens. Someone who did not get the nickname 'Vacuum Cleaner' for nothing. A player that prevents chunks from falling. Willy can not only defend well, but is also very dangerous due to his walking ability and pace in his game. A real midfielder that enables others to shine.

    ARNOLD MÜHREN is the adventurous version of his older brother Gerrie. A player who does everything on insight and puts more risk in his actions. Although Arnold looks modest, he is a leader in the field especially for the younger players. When I was still training at Ajax and the fantastic group Van Basten, Rijkaard, Vanenburg, Van 't Schip and all those others broke through, I immediately attracted the routined veterans Wim Jansen and Arnold Mühren. I think that every player from that time will confirm how important Arnold Mühren was to his coming of age. An intelligent enthusiast and a typical product of Volendam.

    http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/ovde/teksten/spo.jc.linkshalf.html

    BEP BAKHUYS was of course more of a center forward, but because I am assigned to that spot I had to slide with a few players. It is beyond dispute, however, that a legend such as Bep Bakhuys must always be nominated for the Orange of the Century. Someone who could play football so well that it matters little where you put him. Bep Bakhuys is especially famous for the legendary pike dive with which he once managed to score in the Dutch national team. This famous international with 28 goals in 23 international matches has built up an imposing record of service.

    JOHN REP is also such a footballer who could get the hang of it at any place in the forward line. He was technically good, fast, able to head well and often scored important goals. John was physically not an alpha male, but thanks to his technique and strong positional play moving forward, he was able to participate at the highest level for many years.

    I already nominated RUUD GULLIT as a right back, but he can not be absent from this position. An incredibly complete player who has given Dutch football a lot. Ruud Gullit was technically strong, in the one-on-one duels for the ball almost unbeatable and had a good cross. Someone who has been one of the [his emphasis] outward faces of our type of football for the last twenty years.

    As far as MARCO VAN BASTEN is concerned, there is hardly anything to come up with that he can not do. He was for me personally unquestionably the best of his generation. That is why it really does not matter that he is nominated as a right-wing man, because he would be able to demonstrate his exceptional class everywhere. Because Marco van Basten stands for elegance and above all an abundance of quality.

    I always had a great weakness for DENNIS BERGKAMP. Partly because I gave him his debut as a right winger in top football and saw him from a young age. If you dissect Marco van Basten [at his technical best] and him, so the stopping, turning, ball treatment and much more, then it is all perfect. Again a typical attacker with which our country has made an impression in the twentieth century. And this is again the proof that we need to pick this up again, to train and guide such exceptional qualities in the right way. "

    --------------

    This is part two of three
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    FAAS WILKES is the elegance at its best in my view. Quality, technique and speed are bundled with him in one body. I want to admit that Faas has been my example. If I should call an idol, then Faas Wilkes is the first name that comes to mind. A player whose name is still pronounced with great respect at former clubs Inter Milan and Valencia. An incredibly good football player, a great dribbler and blessed with a fantastic overview. There is actually nothing lacking about Faas Wilkes, who is therefore also considered one of the representative footballers of this century.

    Many people will not know WILLY DULLENS. He was one of the greatest talents from the period where it all started for me. Someone who did everything on technique and insight, but unfortunately had to stop much too soon. Willy was only 21 when he suffered an extremely severe knee injury and was declared unfit for sport. A couple years later we organized a charity match for him with Ajax in the Olympic Stadium. It was telling that more than 55,000 people were present to cheer this great talent once again.

    RONALD KOEMAN was of course super quality for me. Someone who started at FC Groningen and Ajax as inside right and later in life, when the playing systems changed, shifting more and more backwards. Technically he is of exceptional class, positionally strong, with a phenomenal shot from the second line and the courage to stick his head out and take responsibility. Someone who compensated effortlessly his lack of mobility. Ronald has always been a player to my heart.

    FRANK RIJKAARD started out as a midfielder and eventually ended up at that place. In between, he has also been a central defender of international class. As inside right, he ensures the balance between defense and attack. Moreover, thanks to his impressive physical strength, he is very strong in the air and very good at hunting the ball.

    GERALD VANENBURG has the physique from Willy Dullens, but was initially a bit more individual in his mind. Later he made himself subordinate to the team and thus developed into one of the key figures of the Dutch national team that became European champion in 1988. His great quality was then that he put his surplus of technique and insight into the service of the team. In this other role, Gerald is similar to top players such as Gerrie and Arnold Mühren and therefore also belongs to a special category."

    KICK SMIT is the least familiar name to me, but when I speak to people from his time, it becomes clear that he must be counted among the better footballers in his time. Just his extremely high yield in the Dutch national team (26 goals in 29 international matches) indicates Kick Smit did something right.

    ABE LENSTRA clearly did not have to do a job in the field, but this was compensated with other exceptional capacities. Where someone else would get in trouble, this responsible sportsman solved everything thanks to a super insight and super technique. Abe Lenstra was a folk hero, because enormous qualities were linked to a very appealing personality. Someone who was so immovable that he never left 'his' Heerenveen. It is also quite right that this beautiful football city still cherishes its most remarkable player.

    KEES RIJVERS formed for years with Faas Wilkes and Abe Lenstra the golden inside trio of the Dutch national team. It says a lot about his talent, that during peak years of the French football he not only helped Saint Etienne with the national title, but in 1957 he was also chosen as the player of the year. Fortunately, Kees Rijvers later extended his qualities as a footballer to his coaching. He was with FC Twente, PSV and the national team a coach leaning to chose for football and the attack. Quality went above all else and it is therefore no coincidence that top football players such as Willy van der Kuijlen, Frank Rijkaard, Ruud Gullit and Marco van Basten have all received an important push in the right direction by Kees Rijvers.

    HENK GROOT was one of the most beautiful football players I knew from my youth. A penalty was always a goal with him and he was a technically sublime header. If you watched Henk Groot, you saw football with style. Someone with enormous qualities, who nevertheless could afford to play football completely in the service of his fellow players. I have rarely experienced anyone in the field who felt so good when he had to initiate a one-two with you. It says a lot about the versatility of Henk Groot, that he became top scorer at Feyenoord and was at Ajax a solid provider.

    The latter also applies to WILLY VAN DER KUIJLEN. A game player, who with 311 goals is still the top scorer of all time of the league. A master in cutting and turning. Left or right did not matter, just as he had a devastating shot in both legs. Willy van der Kuijlen had such a beautiful kick technique, that today he had made fame as an outstanding free-kick specialist. Together with Wim Jansen I also experienced Willy van der Kuijlen from the beginning, because we once started as the inner trio of the UEFA-team.

    This also applied to BERTUS DE HARDER, who was known as the divine bald. One of the first Dutch people to become a professional abroad and someone who is still spoken about with great respect. A left winger who filled in all aspects of football in a special way.

    COEN MOULIJN was the master of the one-two. At Feyenoord especially in combination with first Frans Bouwmeester and later Wim van Hanegem. An old-fashioned outside left, which mainly controlled one feint to perfection. Another who had that and where almost every defender gave in was Sir Stanley Matthews. Toss inwards, then blaze past outside and deliver the cross. That was Coen Moulijn. Physically he had little to offer, but technique and intuition compensated everything. Coen Moulijn was the [his emphasis] proof that, due to an excellent technique, everything else has to weigh much less heavily.

    PIET KEIZER was my teacher. He was four years older and had experienced everything just a little bit earlier. Piet Keizer also debuted at the age of seventeen in the first of Ajax and was the first full-paid at the club, after which I was contracted second. Piet is someone with whom I have experienced a lot, what you can experience with each other. Phenomenon. The man of the effect ball, effective free kick and wonderful crosses. And do not forget he was the master of the scissor move.

    ROB RENSENBRINK was the human snake. Someone with a very personal style, just as Rivaldo has a distinct style. Totally different from Coen Moulijn and Piet Keizer, but just like those two hard to imitate. The supertrio Moulijn, Keizer and Rensenbrink is yet another proof of how rich football history really is.

    Left and right did not matter for JOHN VAN 'T SCHIP. He is more than the winger of the new generation. John van 't Schip was elegant. An winger who always managed to make something special out of his position. If he takes his qualities as a footballer as the starting point for his exercises as trainer, which he has now chosen, there is still a fraction of hope for Dutch football."


    This was part 3 of 3
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah I see what you mean. Maybe it's now the proper time (after the whole 50) to think a bit more about it.
     
  8. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Props @PuckVanHeel for this resourceful project.

    Below I present the "Annoying TOP 50", which is based on 3 Dutch XI´s plus honorable mentions. The order of the players here is non-specific.
    The formations of the 3 teams, will be presented after the OP finishes the century selection.

    VI's version is on the left side
    Annoying TOP 50 is on the right side


    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes) - Frans de Munck (1922, Goes)
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht) - Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht)
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam) -
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout) - Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout)

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen) - Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen)
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague) - Harry Denis (1896, The Hague)
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam) - Ernie Brandts (1956 Didam)
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam) - Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam)
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam) - Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam)
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn) - Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam) - Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam)
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen) - Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen)
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam) - Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam)
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam) - Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam)

    Defensive midfielders:

    Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam) - Bok de Korver (1883, Rotterdam)
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht) - Puck van Heel (1904, Rotterdam)
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo) - Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo)
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde) - Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde)

    Central midfielders:

    Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven) - Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven)
    Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede) - Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede)
    Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo) - Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo)
    Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens) - Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens)

    Attacking midfielders:

    Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam) - Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam)
    Ronald de Boer (1970, Hoorn) -
    Rafael van der Vaart (1983, Heemskerk) -
    Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond) - Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond)
    Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht) - Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht)
    Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam) - Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam)
    Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam) - Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam)

    Wing players:

    Gerald Vanenburg (1964, Utrecht) - Bertus de Harder (1920, The Hague)
    Coen Moulijn (1937, Rotterdam) - Coen Moulijn (1937, Rotterdam)
    Sjaak Swart (1938, Muiderberg) - Sjaak Swart (1938, Muiderberg)
    Johnny Rep (1951, Zaandam) - Johnny Rep (1951, Zaandam)
    Marc Overmars (1973, Emst) - Marc Overmars (1973, Emst)
    Piet Keizer (1943, Amsterdam) - Piet Keizer (1943, Amsterdam)
    Rob Rensenbrink (1947, Amsterdam) - Rob Rensenbrink (1947, Amsterdam)
    Arjen Robben (1984, Bedum) - Arjen Robben (1984, Bedum)
    - Jan de Natris (1895, Amsterdam)

    Center forwards:

    Huug de Groot (1890, Rotterdam) - Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink (1972, Paramaribo)
    Ruud Geels (1948, Haarlem) - Ruud Geels (1948, Haarlem)
    Roy Makaay (1975, Wijchen) - Roy Makaay (1975, Wijchen)
    Beb Bakhuys (1909, Pekalongan) - Beb Bakhuys (1909, Pekalongan)
    Patrick Kluivert (1976, Amsterdam) - Patrick Kluivert (1976, Amsterdam)
    Ruud van Nistelrooij (1976, Oss) - Ruud van Nistelrooij (1976, Oss)
    Robin van Persie (1983, Rotterdam) - Robin van Persie (1983, Rotterdam)
    Marco van Basten (1964, Utrecht) - Marco van Basten (1964, Utrecht)
    - Pierre van Hooijdonk (1969, Steenbergen)
    - Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (1983, Voor-Drempt)

    Inside forwards:

    Willy Brokamp (1946, Chevremont) - Kick Smit (1911,Haarlem)
    Kees Rijvers (1926, Breda) - Kees Rijvers (1926, Breda)
    Abe Lenstra (1920, Heerenveen) - Abe Lenstra (1920, Heerenveen)
    Faas Wilkes (1923, Rotterdam) - Faas Wilkes (1923, Rotterdam)
    Dennis Bergkamp (1969, Amsterdam) - Dennis Bergkamp (1969, Amsterdam)
     
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  9. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Netherlands Team III (4-3-3)


    [​IMG]

    The odd ones in:
    -de Munck is picked above van Beveren. Although the latter has lots of references, the limited footage I´ve seen of his European games is not impressive. De Munck beat German international goalie Fritz Herkenrath to the first team. He also showed great longevity for the NT.

    -Puck van Heel receives mentions for a position on the left side of defense. He also enjoyed more fame than Adri van Tiggelen, among others.

    -Blind and Brandts were bigger goal threats than respective other solid defenders.

    -Swart and Rep both covered much of the right flank. They should be able to work it out here.

    -Geels and v Hooijdonk both lack showcasing on the worldstage. This choice leans on potential.
     
  10. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Netherlands Team II (4-4-2)

    [​IMG]

    The second team is a 4-4-2. This is to better accommodate most of the players.

    Moulijn and Seedorf were more effective outside of the penalty area, possibly de Natris as well. Rensenbrink was more like a left forward. Likewise, Lenstra enjoyed tactical freedom. RvN, like Jimmy Floyd, scored a lot of goals from the the right side of the penalty area.
    Gullit could cover a lot of ground. Sneijder and v Hanegem could also defend and define.

    The back line is somewhat limited pace-wise. But it makes up for that through distribution. De Korver can drive the ball out if needed. It makes the team feel a bit like an English one, where the midfield is open and the lines are more segmented.

    I'm not sure if the class of this 2nd team would beat the bloodlust of the 3rd team.
    Any speculations are welcome @PDG1978 @PuckVanHeel @msioux75 @peterhrt
     
  11. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I guess, Van der Hart was a WM centreback.
    And De Korver, a Pyramid attacking Centrehalf.
    Meanwhile, De Natris was an attacking minded forward, at that time, the whole forward line, started its action deeper than post "Offside rule" forward lines.
     
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  12. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    A very interesting thread, calling for a re-evaluation of the ranking of Dutch players against one another. Within-country ratings are the logical first step towards overall rankings.

    When combining the various international end-of-century lists that came out twenty years ago (excluding the Dutch-only ones), the relative position of Dutch players was pretty clear. Cruyff was a certain number one, van Basten a definite number two, and Gullit a clear number three.

    There were then three men very close together, meaning numbers four to six could be in any order: Bergkamp, Neeskens and Rijkaard. Dennis Bergkamp was still playing at the top level at the time of the polls. In seventh place was Krol, followed by Rensenbrink in eighth. No other footballer from the Netherlands received significant support.

    A combination of Dutch-only polls, reflecting opinion in the Netherlands, told a different story. The Top 2 were the same. Gullit dropped down a position, losing the number three spot to van Hanegem. Neeskens still made the Top 6, which was a little surprising since he is generally considered to be rated much higher abroad than at home. Bergkamp's support disappeared and Rensenbrink also exited the Top 10. Their replacements were Lenstra, Wilkes and goalkeeper van Beveren.

    The cases of Lenstra and Wilkes are particularly interesting since both come from a time long before the Dutch NT and its clubs were considered a genuine force. The former only represented Dutch teams. Dutch pundits Jan Mulder and Henk Spaan both placed Lenstra in third place after Cruyff and van Basten. Mulder ranked Wilkes fourth, Spaan had him fifth. Johan Cruyff included Lenstra and Wilkes in his Netherlands team of the twentieth century, and excluded Bergkamp and Rensenbrink.

    Lenstra's case is not helped by RSSSF and IFFHS effectively rubbishing the level of football he participated in. RSSSF explains its list of leading goalscorers thus:

    Only players who (mostly) played at the highest level are
    considered, so players like Erwin Helmchen (Germany 20s-40s,
    probably scored 800+ goals but in 'Bezirksligen', never
    active in national team) or Abe Lenstra (Netherlands, 636
    league goals (total to be verified) at a time when domestic
    championship was divided in 6 regional leagues) are not
    considered.


    Other compilers have followed suit. Yet BS poster @schus has shown that the totals of Bican, Eusebio and Muller all include goals in lower divisions. And @Puskas 1988 pointed out that Erwin Helmchen actually scored most of his league goals in a “first division”. Helmchen may never have played international football, but Lenstra certainly did, appearing 47 times and scoring 33 goals – hardly the record of a limited lower-league bully. Adding these two men to the list from all countries would see Lenstra in seventh place, currently three goals ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo.

    VI included ten Dutchmen in their Top 100 from all countries that came out last year. The placement of Dutch players relative to their own countrymen looked very similar to the international polls from the 1990s. Same Top 3; same next three (Neeskens, Bergkamp, Rijkaard); Krol eighth. The others chosen were van Hanegem, van der Sar and new boy Robben.

    A year on, VI''s latest Dutch-only list relegates Neeskens from fourth place to eighteenth. Robben leapfrogs all candidates apart from the perennial gold and silver, Cruyff and van Basten. Compared to the Netherlands-only lists of the 1990s, Wilkes has fallen out of the Top 10, while Lenstra, then ranked third by some pundits, is now languishing at #29. This doesn't look right. There will be fewer people around who remember him, but a historical list should take that fully into account. All in all, plenty of food for thought.
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If following annoyed's lead with 3 teams worth plus honourable mentions (and if including a few extra legends of old in that category as more of an overview of great Dutch players through history, even not being able to try to evaluate them visually at all), I'd probably end up with Christmas Tree formations - with liberos as the trunks of the trees, and this selection (as much as the 4-3-3 might be more representative of Dutch football I think the 4-3-2-1 suits the best players the best but several wing players are among the HMs of course):

    Team 1: Van der Sar; Krol; Suurbier, Rijkaard, Van Tiggelen; Gullit, Neeskens, Sneijder; Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten

    Team 2: Van Beveren; R.Koeman; Van Aerle, Israel, Hovenkamp; R. De Boer, Davids, Seedorf; Wilkes, Rensenbrink; Van Nistelrooy

    Team 3: Van Breukelen; F. De Boer; Winter, Stam, Cocu; Van der Kuijlen, Jansen, Van Hanegem; Robben/Rep, Lenstra/Robben; Van Persie/Lenstra

    HMs (in addition to Rep/Lenstra/Van Persie - I'd probably put Robben in team 3 at least even in that formation - Lenstra is the biggest uncertainty of course):
    Van der Hart, Van Heel, Smit, Bakhuys, Hulshoff, W.van de Kerkhof, Rijvers, Van der Vaart, Vanenberg, R. van de Kerkhof, Overmars, Moulijn, Keizer, Kluivert, Makaay, Huntelaar
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #364 PuckVanHeel, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    Bergkamp is at more than a couple occasions put as high as #2 but he had/has also his detractors (in his profile I put a link towards a few of those articles).

    Simon Kuper: "When Bergkamp is pulled out with 20 minutes left, it seems an indignity, like keeping a Vermeer in the cellar. Not that Bergkamp is a great player - just a beautiful one. Henk Spaan, who compiled an all-time "Top 100" of Dutch players, ranked him only twelfth. Bergkamp never won the biggest international prizes, Spaan explains. "He was seldom Arsenal's most important player. At times, even Ray Parlour was more important. You would never want Bergkamp playing for your life." (Simon Kuper is in general very often negative towards Holland, has been panned by international historians for this, but that's another story)

    I'm a bit in the middle of this and I'd put Robben and him at the same level. I don't see though how Cantona can be placed ahead of him (I'm not talking about Henry). Basically, he was less productive at all the levels (excluding penalties) for (often, on average) more dominant teams.

    Here they say there was a real danger of the EPL becoming a one team league, and you can't think away him for avoiding this



    Anyway, I'll take a break now.
     
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  15. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Netherlands Team I (4-3-3)

    [​IMG]

    The first team is an atypical 4-3-3, with Rijkaard in his Milan anchoring role. It accomodates all attackers in their best positions. All of them, perhaps with the exception of v Basten, enjoyed double man marking. Who will receive double marking now?

    Although I generally prefer Israel above Koeman and de Boer, because of their occasional slip ups, Koeman adds a lot of depth with his Platini pass and setpiece power. He should certainly receive space for his launches, unless the marking shifts in favor of the attackers.
    Can't be defended, can they?)
     
  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #366 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    I like your style consistency of sticking to footage.
    As I see you as a connoisseur of English football, I am quite curious about your take on Hasselbaink, as well as your selection of Hovenkamp.
    Cheers
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I guess we all lean on testimony about legends and information from various sources, but I find it hard to envisage selecting players I don't have a great feel for due to not having witnessed even their playing style let alone had a chance to assess abilities. It's difficult to offer my own opinion or even work out how players may fit into a team, without that to some extent I think.

    I think Hasslebaink excelled as literally a striker of the ball, and also for his physical characteristics. I think he would always suit an attacking team which would provide him with plenty of shooting opportunities and also get service to him inside the box.

    Hovenkamp seems to have had a good mix of ball-playing ability and mobility, as well as being a reliable left-footer for crosses and defensive blocks potentially. And he seems pretty good going both ways (helping build attacks and also positionally defensively). It seems to me he had a decent peak of career anyway, and might have won more caps if not for injury interrupting things I think?

    I even wondered if I had tried to select 4-3-3 teams whether I'd have put Hasselbaink as striker in team 3, but I think maybe Makaay. I'd have a few choices to make in adjusting things, including deciding whether to put Cruyff in midfield or left side of attack (since Van Basten's inclusion rules out Cruyff as false 9) - I think I'd go LM and bring Rensenbrink in at LWF, while maybe sticking with Bergkamp for RWF (with Gullit/Suurbier to overlap he could still come infield quite a lot) rather than Wilkes. Consequently Wilkes might be RM in team 2, with Seedorf or Sneijder at LM (the other one in team 3) and a front 3 I'm thinking of Rep-Van Nistelrooy-Overmars(/Moulijn). So then I might put Van Hanegem as the central mid in team 3, with R. De Boer to his right and a front 3 of Robben-Makaay-Moulijn(/Overmars). If making the back 4 flat then F.De Boer would become LCB in team 3, R.Koeman RCB in team 2, and in team 1 Krol could be either RCB or LCB I would think, alongside Rijkaard.
     
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  18. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Some intriguing local knowledge in your selections.

    Must admit my own view on a First XI is not all that clear. I am not sure whether to go for van Beveren or van der Sar in goal. The former's reputation versus the latter's CV. Krol is left-back and Rijkaard probably CB rather than DM. If Ronald Koeman plays, a proper defender needs to be at RB. But who?

    Harry Denis was a central defender in today's terminology. Bok de Korver, as you say, would be a DM. Cor van der Hart was a another ball-playing centre-back. Converted winger Suurbier boasts an excellent CV, but does not seem to be considered Top 50 material. Neeskens played RB early on, and there has been talk of moving Gullit there. I will probably go for Stam, who has some experience in the position even though it was not his regular spot.

    Neeskens, Gullit and van Hanegem make up the midfield in a 4-3-3. None was a dedicated DM but all knew how to defend. Cruyff and van Basten pick themselves, which leaves one place. It will go to ace goalscorer Abe Lenstra, who will be granted his favoured inside-left berth. Can't help feeling history has failed to do him full justice.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I fail to see what Neeskens has ahead of Davids or Seedorf.
     
  20. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Prior to this thread, Dénis had been somewhat under the radar for me. I have featured Stam as RB on several occasions.
    I started drawing parallels with Krol, who has played on every position in defense. Dénis is mentioned as a right back and featured on the left side of defense in a lineup. He claimed stamina training to be important for his game. So, perhaps Dénis was more poly functional than Stam.

    I also see similarities between Lenstra and Makaay. Both were good assisters from a shadow striking position. Both were accurate finishers, with both feet as well as by heading. Both were fast. And both would go hiding for great parts of a game. But I would say that Lenstra was a better rebounder, with near Müller/Pelé level reaction speeds.
    This final aspect of the game, along with setpieces, IMHO, is underrated by most posters and journalists.

    But not to digress, the only weakness of your XI seems to be the width/wingplay. MvB is best fed from the flank and if Cruijff doesn't use the outside of his right boot, random crosses tend to follow. That's why I think his best positions are in the center, in spite of the Cruijff turn.

    Of course, selecting individuals is a different puzzle from selecting a fitting XI. I like your total football midfield option. It is quite Dutch:thumbsup:
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #371 PuckVanHeel, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    Funny circumstance is here that Bergkamp at the age of 35-36 (in 2004-05) was more productive as the then best player in the world, Ronaldinho, in the same season! (a gap that increases if the penalties are taken away).

    This was also the last of the 8 consecutive seasons where Arsenal finished in the top two (and last of the 9 in the top three). Ofc 2005-06 was a different story when his contribution decreased.

    This is what the television showed when he retired



    You perhaps like these:



    I can understand some English football writers on the one hand describe him in terms of 'classicist' and 'baroque' (something of the 1950s in him, accentuated by the long shorts), while others look at it in terms of modernity (or both at the same time).

    Interesting that among his own favorite assists (and games) was this one at 3:05
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjhgaj
    (first nutmegging the defender effortlessly, than curled through ball to Reyes who doesn't lose momentum)

    I'm not really convinced one way or the other in comparison to Robben.

    What is also funny, is how both Wilkes and Lenstra did not win a lot with their teams, analogous to Matthews, Finney and many others of about the same time. Yet they were regarded as better (possibly justifiably so) as many 'winners' in their own time.

    Anyway, I'll leave it here then for the time being.
     
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  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, that assist did have several 'perfect' aspects - the idea, vision, nutmeg execution, angled pass evading the defender and placed right where Reyes can make best use of it! Nice clips of early career footage on the tribute video from Dutch TV.

    And yeah, I suppose with more parity amongst teams, and no real super teams (but instead top Internationals sticking to their teams more) the best overall teams didn't always contain the very best players of the nation. Inter were probably considered a top club, but came close multiple times, and it speaks well for Wilkes that they wanted such a player from the Netherlands, that he was even called the best in the world based on displays for Inter as you showed, and that he was later wanted by Valencia and held in high regard in Spain too.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One final thing;

    I was thinking about this, too, and must say for the UK it is a mixed picture.

    With regards to Charlton, Best, Matthews, Dalglish declining in stature and some like Law totally disappearing, yes I agree. Though Charlton hasn't lost much ground to his contemporaries and the same cannot be said about MvB/JC14 who are demonstrably knocked down by figures as comme/PeruFC/Dearman compared to the turn of the century lists you've cited. Matthews has lost some ground against his contemporaries.

    At the same time the last 25 years many British (in particular English) players have been treated very gently by the internet crowd, clearly more so than many other countries. There is no English player who has won more than 1 Champions League as a starter (except for Canada-bred Hargreaves). In half of the finals there was no English player starting anyway. The national team results, not to forget against the big teams as well, need no elaboration (of the classic 'big' teams this record is best rivaled by Argentina). The marketing power and megaphones of the Premier League 'saved' the reputation in the 'dire' years (that are now ending).

    Totally different from the way how 6 among first 23 of the 'real' Ballon d'Or in 1998 gets chopped down to only 2 in the latin revisionist universe.

    It is clear as daylight, and the vested interests by the modern football fans and media are obvious. Apparently FIFA aims for an expanded club world cup, with culturally small Holland frozen out but Uruguay included. That will only accelerate the Orwellian revising of history writing. The cartel has won. The best hope remains the national team upsetting some desired and doctored out schedules.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You wondered how I'd place the players, I will try...
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I was a bit :mad: yesterday because of Ajax their late winner (though it's good for football, it seems NLD will be in the top 10 for both UEFA coefficients and Elo rating at the end of the year), but anyway, I still feel/think the reputation of dutch footballers/figures have plummeted the last 20 years and there is a push to write them out of history and role in the development (i.e. Cruijff as 19th best world cup player, lower than other one tournament players; Beckenbauer ahead of Cruijff as player and/or overall influential figure (esp. the latter is terrible, disrespectful and baseless); Matthaus, Romario and co ahead of MvB; Cantona ahead of Bergkamp; Ribery ahead of Robben; Seedorf despite his world class technique is generally snubbed, put lower than Scholes, Redondo and the likes, very typical; not to forget the revisionist maligning of the 1998 year).

    You asked how I'd put it. Well, that is not necessarily the consensus. In local forums and threads about 'overrated players' everyone passes by, from Stam, Seedorf to Huntelaar and post-injury Strootman.

    I'd go with this

    1:
    Van Basten
    Cruijff

    2:
    Bergkamp
    Gullit
    Van Hanegem
    Rensenbrink
    Rijkaard
    Robben
    Wilkes

    3:
    Bakhuys
    Davids
    Denis
    Van Persie
    Keizer
    Koeman
    Lenstra
    Seedorf
    Sneijder
    Van der Sar

    4:
    F. de Boer
    Cocu
    Geels
    Haan
    Jansen
    Van der Kuijlen
    A. Mühren
    Van Nistelrooij
    Neeskens
    Makaay
    Moulijn
    Overmars
    Kluivert
    Krol
    Rep
    Rijvers
    Vanenburg

    5:
    Van Beveren
    Van Bommel
    Van Breukelen
    Blind
    R. de Boer
    Brokamp
    De Groot
    Van der Hart
    Israel
    De Munck
    Stam
    Swart
    Van Bronckhorst
    Van der Vaart

    I'd also put Van Heel in, at least at category #4.

    Hope this answers your questions. If not you can ask here or by PM.
     

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