Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thought you'd be interested in the comments Johan made when he collected his team of the century (I came to it because the wikipedia mentions Lenstra was the only deceased player to be in the XI).

    ABE LENSTRA clearly did not have to do a job in the field, but this was compensated with other exceptional capacities. Where someone else would get in trouble, this responsible sportsman solved everything thanks to a super insight and super technique. Abe Lenstra was a folk hero, because enormous qualities were linked to a very appealing personality. Someone who was so immovable that he never left 'his' Heerenveen. It is also quite right that this beautiful football city still cherishes its most remarkable player.

    KEES RIJVERS formed for years with Faas Wilkes and Abe Lenstra the golden inside trio of the Dutch national team. It says a lot about his talent, that during peak years of the French football he not only helped Saint Etienne with the national title, but in 1957 he was also chosen as the player of the year. Fortunately, Kees Rijvers later extended his qualities as a footballer to his coaching. He was with FC Twente, PSV and the national team who tended to chose for football and the attack. Quality went above all else and it is therefore no coincidence that top football players such as Willy van der Kuijlen, Frank Rijkaard, Ruud Gullit and Marco van Basten have all received an important push in the right direction by Kees Rijvers.

    FAAS WILKES is the elegance at its best in my view. Quality, technique and speed are bundled with him in one body. I want to admit that Faas has been my example. If I should call an idol, then Faas Wilkes is the first name that comes to mind. A player whose name is still pronounced with great respect at former clubs Inter Milan and Valencia. An incredibly good football player, a great dribbler and blessed with a fantastic overview. There is actually nothing lacking about Faas Wilkes, who is therefore also considered one of the representative footballers of this century.


    I might post the whole thing if that would be interesting. What I see is that he had also commentary on some players that are here missing out (Van Heel, Hulshoff etc.). He has done some homework but when he was pundit - as incomprehensible he sometimes could be - it was clear he had a sense and antenna for the history (or at least a general feel for it).

    https://sport.infonu.nl/voetbal/148642-het-nederlands-voetbalelftal-van-de-eeuw.html
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I think posting more would be good if you would like to.
     
  3. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Are there any other sources with a breakdown of Abe Lenstra's goals?

    football-oranje.com says he scored 523 "career" goals. But these are only goals for Heerenveen, as confirmed on the club's website. This website claims Lenstra scored 700 goals in competitive football in approximately 730 matches, figures which are repeated in the English Wikipedia.

    Dutch Wikipedia gives Lenstra 651 goals in 677 league and cup games, plus 33 in 47 internationals, making 684 official goals in 724 matches. Of the 651 league and cup goals, 523 as noted were for Heerenveen, 89 for SC Enschede and 39 for Enschedese Boys.

    RSSSF claims Lenstra scored 636 league goals, which would leave only 15 in cups. It does not include Lenstra or the German Erwin Helmchen in its list of leading scorers in official matches because most of their goals came in regional leagues. Were the pair to be included, Lenstra's Dutch Wiki numbers would leave him seventh, four goals ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo.

    The Heerenveen club site also states that Lenstra scored 850+ goals in total including all representative and cup fixtures.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As far as I know, there is not a full breakdown with it, as in game by game.

    His biography from 2007 by Johan Mast - which is I think the best - keeps it at 684 official goals in 724 official matches.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  6. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #332 PuckVanHeel, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    There are in that graph six players behind him though. So it is still the inside left.


    The exposition in the museum about him also has this number, and 523 goals for Heerenveen.

    There is also a documentary from 1963, but haven't seen yet what it says (but after a brief scroll I noticed people pointing out his playing style, which matches with what has been stated above - compare this with Rijvers where there seems somewhat less consensus about his attributes).
    https://www.vpro.nl/speel~WO_VPRO_0...63-portret-van-een-sportman-abe-lenstra~.html

    The documentary from 2004 uses a 'careful' estimate of 685 official goals (so one more than 684).

    (note here that even with Pelé there are some 'missing' or even 'added' goals - some articles have appeared about this)


    I'll do after completion. There are a few names left now. Looks quite accurate what he says and summarizes (what he says on Lenstra is quite right - but his reputation hasn't aged particularly well in the sense that he used to be top five of his country).
     
  8. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I would argue the same. But it doesn't coincide with the stated preference for playing on the (outside) left.
    I hope you catch my drift.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #334 PuckVanHeel, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    No, but that's possibly my mistake and error.

    About half of his caps weren't on his favored inside-left position (25/47) and then there was also a chunk where he refused to play for (in part) that reason. He played in 47 but didn't play in 32, which is quite a high proportion (and he didn't move abroad).
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #335 PuckVanHeel, Oct 15, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
    Van Basten (2006): "I never saw him playing in person obviously, though I saw the television images of course. He was gracious and technically gifted. A tall man too, a lot taller as most other extraordinary dribblers. An important figure for the sport here. And he was the example for Cruijff, that is peculiar."
    https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/peiling-wilkes-fenomeen-~b53ffc97/

    Faas Wilkes (1923, Rotterdam)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzaetu

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faas_Wilkes
    https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/zum-4-todestag-von-faas-wilkes
    http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/..._olandese_volante_Inter_ga_10_060817012.shtml
    https://staantribune.nl/faas-wilkes-is-nog-italiaanser-dan-de-italianen/
    https://edwinwinkels.com/faas-wilkes/
    http://www.football-oranje.com/hall-of-fame-faas-wilkes/

    Nick Holt and Guy Lloyd wrote (I've the translated version, but it is also in the English version I saw with my eyes - his technique was rated with a 10/10):

    An extra background profile from 1995:

    Almost unanimously seen as one of the most skilled footballers his country (and the entire low countries) ever had, he was aptly nicknamed 'The Mona Lisa of Rotterdam'. Though he was not as popular as the three years older Abe Lenstra, the standard work of 1952 by Leo Pagano already named him "one of the best footballers and ball players the Netherlands had since the origins of the sport."

    What helps his lasting reputation is how he was seen abroad. That is not to say Lenstra and Rijvers have an asterisk in that regard, but Wilkes his travels meant he left more traces behind. With as a result that - for example - a 1973 Placar (of Brazil) article mentioned him in the same category as Di Stefano, Kopa, Didi, Puskas, Kubala and Ben Barek as the foremost ball players that passed through the 1950s in Spanish football. At the end of the 20th century he was seen as up there with Mario Kempes as one of the very best foreigners to have played for Valencia (in internet votes, which tend to be less generous to his compatriots, he's the #2 foreigner, or alternatively the #3 or #4). Likewise, at his previous club before problems with his knee surfaced, when Internazionale existed 100 years experts (in Il Seccolo dell'Inter) rated him 17th overall and the 5th best midfielder, despite playing only three years there (once runners-up, two third places).

    Despite playing deeper (for Internazionale, behind three or four forwards) and also as center forward (for Valencia, using his size and technical abilities to post up), he is most often seen as a creative inside-forward.

    In that capacity he lined up against England in 1946, where he got measured by a big footballing country for the first time. Although his own team lost 8-2 (read that link), Wilkes himself looked good, resulting in starting the match to signal the return of the 'home nations' to FIFA in 1947 (where he again looked fine; Nordahl missed many chances according to the reports). As funny trivia: as preparation for that match he and the Europe XI played against the Dutch national team.

    Kenneth Wolstenholme concluded after the 1946 England game: "Faas Wilkes is more than good enough to play for any top flight team [in England]." The Daily Telegraph commented Wilkes had lived up to "his reputation as best inside forward of the [close] continent", Daily Mail commented he and Raich Carter stand out, and Daily Express observed he proved his reputation as "a player whose game was characterised by great inventiveness, fine technique and a wonderful passing ability."

    His major weak point is that Wilkes never won a league title, despite often being close and fairly influential for several different teams. He was the first non-Spanish player of Valencia and remained for 40 years the all-time topscorer of the national team.

    ------------

    Also here, we might expand on this and discuss it a bit further. @annoyedbyneedoflogin and @PDG1978 In particular the comparison with Lenstra (in style and abilities, too).

    Gordon Jeffery his 1963 book "European International Football" (has an endorsement in the football compendium) named him "the cream of the natural talent in Europe [...] probably the best forward the Netherlands have yet produced" and commented about the country in general: "To them 'football is [generally] only a game' [...]. That is, as playing performance and results were concerned. There has never been a time when the sound counsels of Netherlands representatives have not been of value in the organization of world football. Indeed, that same almost obstinate adherence to amateurism that retarded their development on the field of play has been valuable in the development of the world game." Brian Glanville said in his 1978 book of footballers: "Inside-left for the Rest of Europe in Glasgow against Britain in May 1947, the tall, lean Wilkes, a complete master of close control, was the inspiration of Johan Cruyff and perhaps the most accomplished of all Dutch players before him."
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Some insightful quotes there Puck:

    Particularly this one regarding his dribbling
    "I saw him once dribbling past eight men." says Van den Polder who never exaggerates. "He did that in a unique style. And I've seen a lot of top quality football in my life. If you want to compare his moves with someone, then Frans Thijssen comes close. But he bended his knees while he was weaving and turning, which made it slightly less fluid. Faas, with a slender body like a gazelle, did everything with pace. He moved past three or four men, accelerating in the meantime, and a precise shot followed."
    Wilkes himself indicates he probably more often looked to set up a team-mate after the dribbling though of course (so it wasn't always/mainly preceding a precise shot probably).

    The most impressive piece of dribbling I've noticed from him (I've posted previously), and although with only 2 players dribbled past I think there are parallels to what is written...and imagining it happening with 8 doesn't seem too far-fetched, is this for Inter in 1950/51 (at 1:18), away at Napoli in a 4-0 win (second goal of the four, scored fairly late in the game):

    I think at that time he would have had a bit more pace/agility than later in the 50s, so maybe watching him play for the NT later (on clips like the one posted when discussing Rijvers) would give a reduced impression of his dribbling, even though he could still do it well.

    It does seem evident that the Spanish game was different in his time compared to the time Cruyff himself played there, as it seems to be suggested that the foul play was not extreme and so players like Wilkes could thrive (I think that is implied anyway).


    Regarding Lenstra, maybe the opening goal he scored in that Luxembourg game shows a bit of what he was known for (the ability to slickly move the ball away from a defender). He was compared to Sindelar in some respects I noticed I think (maybe precisely that sort of thing)?
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks (I'll wait for what annoyedbyneedoflogin has to say before commenting on Lenstra).

    I think his most famous match in Italy is this one (6-5 against AC Milan, after trailing 1-4).
    http://www.magliarossonera.it/img194950/immuff/4950_10.html

    You can see that he gets praise for his balanced play and "smart dribbles" by Gazzetta dello Sport. Another retrospective article summarizes it all with "Faas Servaas Wilkes authentic 'fuoriclasse', unsurpassed dribbler, good shooter, always spectacular."

    This is a fine one in Italian:
    https://storiedicalcio.altervista.org/blog/faas_wilkes.html

    Possibly he's rated slightly higher in/for Valencia than for Internazionale I think (or remembered better). Also more recent (and 'mass market') lists have him among the 25 best, as one of the handful foreigners.
    https://as.com/futbol/2016/12/22/album/1482440818_550158.html

    I hope my profile is balanced in that I've mentioned the strong points and also his main weakness (despite often being close for a number of teams, no league titles).
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This excellent resource has him down as an 'interno', thus midfielder for his Italian years.

    http://www.enciclopediadelcalcio.it/Wilkes.html

    That is really a good website.

    (PDG, maybe you remember but I actually posted that 1995 profile before).
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I remember you showing his placing in an all-time Inter Milan players exercise that had been posted online (in the position you refer to).

    In essence, I guess he was playing normally in the 'Meazza' role from later in Meazza's career (with the inside forwards withdrawn to operate from behind the front 3 players as in the Metodo system Italy played in World Cups if I'm not making any mistakes or memory errors here).
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #340 PuckVanHeel, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    One big difference between Lenstra and Wilkes is that the former played his first full season at the age of 15 and became immediately topscorer of the 2nd regional level with 19 goals - this promoted his club to the highest level.

    Wilkes on the other hand didn't play his first full season until the age of 23-24 (for obvious reasons). In the meantime, it helped Lenstra as well that he was around ~1947 production wise at his peak (in 1946-47 48 goals in 29 league games, including the 10 inter-regional matches he played for the national championship), so tall order for Wilkes to really catch up and overshadow him in fame.

    Wilkes built up his standing over a period of time. It made the press he was in Italy commonly seen as the best footballer (at that time he ended 2nd in the topscorer list, behind Nordahl) and with a few Italian journalists even claiming he was the "best in the world".

    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:110585218:mpeg21:p002
    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=MMSAB03:000069331

    That wasn't immediately uncritically accepted by everyone but it became at least clear he was quite highly rated in Italy (despite not as well paid as the major Italian stars), also at the end of his Inter stay in 1952.
     
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  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    To translate; Wilkes, at the moment of the press release, was about to beat Gunnar Gren to the Milan city team.

    Are there any lineups available to confirm this?
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #342 PuckVanHeel, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    That planned game was apparently cancelled but in Brazil they pretended it was played. Bizarre story.

    https://doentesporfutebol.com.br/2013/08/o-jogo-que-nunca-existiu-milan-8-x-1-sao-paulo/


    However, he had already 'beaten' (if you like) Gren a year before, november 1949.

    La mista MilanInter Milano (San Siro), 27 novembre 1949 – amich. Austria Vienna-Mista Milan/Inter 4-3 (2-2) Mista Milan/Inter: Franzosi (Bardelli); Belloni, Foglia (Piani); Miglioli, Tognon, De Grandi (Basso); Burini, Wilkes, Nordhal, Campatelli (Fiorini), Nyers. Reti: 38' Nordhal, 42' Wilkes, 86' Nyers. Note: gara organizzata per il 50° del Milan.

    http://www.magliarossonera.it/img194950/immamichev/4950_4a.html
    http://www.magliarossonera.it/img_almanaccoamichevoli/194950.pdf
    (page 7)
    https://it.blastingnews.com/calcio/...a-milanese-impossibile-ma-vero-002248767.html



    And he also played the 2nd time he could be called up

    http://www.magliarossonera.it/img195152/immamichev/5152_17a.html
    http://www.magliarossonera.it/img_almanaccoamichevoli/195152.pdf

    Gren replaced him at half-time, page 7.

    Milano (San Siro), 17 gennaio 1952 – amich. Mista Milan/Inter-River Plate 3-3 (1-2) Mista Milan/Inter: Buffon (46' Ghezzi); Silvestri (46' Giovannini, 55' Menegotti), Giacomazzi (46' Tognon); Grosso (46' Padulazzi), Fattori (46' Annovazzi), Neri (46' Bonomi); Armano (46' Frignani), Wilkes (46' Gren), Broccini (46' Lorenzi), Skoglund (46' Liedholm), Renosto (46' Nyers). Reti: 6' Skoglund, 71' Vernazza, 89' Lorenzi.


    That are apparently the only two matches when he was there, and was included both times in the mixed team.

    edit: he also played once a game for Real Madrid by the way

    31 mayo de 1956. Homenaje a Luis Molowny. En Madrid (Santiago Bernabéu)
    REAL MADRID - CR VASCO DE GAMA 4-2

    Arbitro: Asensi
    Goles: 1-0 Kopa 12´, 2-0 Kopa 22´,
    3-0 Collar 40´, 4-0 Di Stéfano 62´,
    4-1 Livinho 77´, 5-2 Livinho 85´.
    Real Madrid:
    J. González (Berasaluce 45´); Atienza II, Marquitos, Lesmes;
    Muñoz, Zárraga; Molowny, Kopa (Wilkes 45´), Di Stéfano,
    Kubala, Collar (Miguel 45´).
    Vasco de Gama:
    Helio; Paulin, Aroldo; Laerte, Orlando, Coronel, Sabara;
    Walter (Yedo), Vavá (Bellini 45´), Livinho (Astolfo 45´)D'Jair.

    * Participaron Kopa del Reims, Wilkes del Valencia,
    Kubala del Barcelona, Collar y Miguel del Atlético Madrid


    Either way, I think it is fair to say in Italy he was seen as one of the better players (possibly the best after a short while) and in Spain put in the same line as Kubala and Di Stefano (at least as one of the few best back then, 1953-1956). That this happened in two countries, and returned from knee problems, has been beneficial for his standing next to his compatriots.
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #343 PuckVanHeel, Oct 17, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
    Dennis Bergkamp (1969, Amsterdam)

    Matt Le Tissier: "He’s the best technical footballer the Premier League has ever seen"

    Jaap Stam: "He’s been very important for Dutch football because he stands for the football some of us want to play – you should be strong on the ball and score goals yourself, but also put someone else in the position to score goals, and sometimes show nice things on the pitch as well."

    Thierry Henry (2005): "When Dennis plays, I play differently because, whatever you do, the guy seems to know where you are. I have played with a lot of players, and it's difficult for me to say this, but for me he is the best player I have played with. To play with Dennis is just a dream for a striker because as soon as he sees you he gives you the ball. As soon as you move he gives you the ball, and more often than not he gives you a good ball, and that's why you are more than happy."

    [​IMG]

    Arsene Wenger: "Intelligence and class. Class is of course, most of the time linked to what you can do with the ball, but the intelligence makes you use the technique in an efficient way. It's like somebody who has a big vocabulary but he doesn't say intelligent words, and somebody who has a big vocabulary but he can talk intelligently, and that's what Dennis is all about. What he does, there's always a head and always a brain. And his technique allows him to do what he sees, and what he decides to do."

    "I was very lucky to find Dennis Bergkamp already in the squad when I arrived at Arsenal. You do not find a player like that everywhere you go, It was a blessing, a gift when I arrived. A lot has been said about Dennis over the years; about his class, about his intelligence — his remarkable intelligence — about his vision. Basically you can never say enough about the player.
    But the one thing which is a real example for youngsters is that Dennis Bergkamp, and I have worked with him for 10 years, don't forget, until the last minute of his final training session, he did not lose his concentration or dedication for one minute."


    When Wenger described each of his 'Invincibles' XI (2014): "Dennis is the science, the intelligence, the charisma. A strong character, very determined, super professional. I have seen Dennis from the first to the last day of his career focusing on every single pass. Dennis was the intelligent perfectionist. Dennis needed to control the world through his perfection. When he missed something he was always unhappy. He had an intrinsic desire to be perfect in what he did. His ['invincible'] teammates admired him, which was very important at that time. When your big players create a good understanding, and they respect each other, it makes your team stronger."

    Gary Lineker (2006): "One runs out of superlatives in describing him as a player: he has great vision, awareness, touch, finish, not to mention selflessness, which for a striker almost sounds like a contradiction in terms. But there has always been so much more to Bergkamp than just goalscoring ability and he has plenty of that as his ratio of one goal in less than two and a half games testifies. Even at Arsenal, where he has been less prolific than he was at Ajax, it is still a goal every three games, which isn't bad. A little unusually, at international level, it's even better [...]. Most strikers live and breathe goals and if they haven't scored they leave the pitch disappointed. I've never had that feeling with Bergkamp, not because he didn't care but because scoring goals just wasn't the be all and end all for him. He got his fair share every season, and if he didn't score 25 a season he certainly made 25. And if there ever was anything lacking in his goals in terms of quantity, there certainly wasn't in quality. [...] Bergkamp isn't the sort of player you look at and think, 'Oh, he reminds me of so-and-so'. He's a one-off. I suppose Peter Beardsley and Teddy Sheringham come closest to him in English football, but he scored more goals than my old co-striker Beardsley and, earlier in his career, he had more pace than Sheringham."

    Patrick Vieira: "In many ways the most impressive colleague I worked with. One can say many truthful things about him."

    Gianni Rivera: "Impressive is how he doesn't only do a 'Rembrandt' against Leicester, but also about as often against Real Madrid, Barcelona and Argentina. Very important piece for his teams and one of Johan's outposts I'd say."

    Ruud Gullit: "At a stretch, the low-cost carrier version of Messi, and maybe an early prototype, at a time when there were more fouls each match."


    [​IMG]





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Bergkamp
    http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/halloffame/dennis-bergkamp/
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/1853534.stm
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-football-players-of-all-time.2011432/page-53#post-36512735
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/historical-ranking-of-arjen-robben.2087098/#post-37131654

    Four Four Two their discussion of 'greatest imports':
    wm442433 his good profile (not saying I agree with everything but it is a good try):
    Less obvious, Christian Eriksen (of Denmark) remarked in 2017:

    Indeed, as more than one persons have remarked, many different truthful or arguable (and contestable) things can be said about him - I noticed he also gets his mentions in the 'Soccerbox' episodes (for example games with long passes as this, and the assist later). I'd advise to read David Winner's book on him, which is good in the sense that it also gives the word to more critical remarks.

    The 1999 standard work 'The Internationals' (which has profiles and things on alll capped players) remarked: "In the post-Van Basten era the deepest bow was reserved for Dennis Bergkamp." Leading player of his team towards three UEFA Cup finals (three different teams, three different countries) and with 10 goals (no penalties) and 8 assists (no set pieces) against teams as Germany, Brazil, England, Argentina and France one of the better national team players.

    Maybe it is worthwhile to discuss here a bit the more 'unclear' and 'unknown' parts. For example why despite his obvious talent (as wm442433 says, he had already made some close-to-impressive goals) he made his national team debut aged 21; that he was more of a dribbler and faster pre-Arsenal ;or his inclusion in the 1998 'Football League 100 legends' and that a year later (May 1999) the Premiership included him among the first six names (Les Ferdinand, Peter Schmeichel, Eric Cantona, Alan Shearer, Gianfranco Zola, Dennis Bergkamp).

    I'll think about these 'ambiguous' and 'unknown' things, but maybe @PDG1978 and @annoyedbyneedoflogin (and others) can help with this and provide ideas.

    After that, I round it off and will also post the remarks made for 1999 Orange team of the century back then.
     
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  19. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Ian Wright, who, along with the rest of the Arsenal players, were blown away by Bergkamp's quality, wondered how good the players at Inter must have been if Bergkamp was a reject.

    Now, I would confirm that Bergkamp was more like a fast striker earlier in his career. He scored many goals breaking away from the defensive line and chipping the gk.

    I believe that it was during his time at Inter that he came in crisis with his own game. When at the NT he would still get into 1v1 situations with the gk but used placed shots instead of chips and would often fail.
    I wanted to send him an envelope with a chip ('stift' in Dutch) as to remind him how he used to be successful at finishing.

    After his catharsis, he moved to Arsenal and showed a game that was less speed-and more vision-based.
    I believe that this transition has perhaps cost Dennis a year or two but has allowed him to play top level football till the age of 40 if he had wanted to.
     
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  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    An interesting piece looking back on his entry into English football etc here:
    https://thesetpieces.com/features/90s-heroes-dennis-bergkamp/

    They may be the top two left-backs in my club, Nottingham Forest's history, but those assessments by Pearce/Clark were way off! I actually hoped Forest would sign Bergkamp (for all the money received for Collymore if necessary, though I was keen on Mark Draper for midfield too I remember, with rumours also suggesting he was a feasible target IIRC - as it was I guess although Forest played 4-4-2 in a fluid way, I think Clark would see more value in a specific anchor midfielder and a specific striker even if Collymore despite his height wasn't a typical target striker himself, and the money went on Silenzi/Campbell/Bart-Williams with the latter initially pencilled in for an anchor-type midfield role which Draper wouldn't suit - with respect to Campbell and sympathy to Silenzi I'm sure a Bergkamp-Roy partnership would have been much better to have anyway!).

    I remember Newcastle being linked with him too, before signing Ferdinand (again more a main striker, directly replacing Cole). I suppose how things worked out Arsenal was the best move for him, but at the time although the bigger club maybe they were not heading the queue necessarily due to recent results and standing in the league at the time.

    As for playing until 40, I would have thought so after 2004/05 (another season where Arsenal fans called for an extra year to be given to him which was granted) but late in 2005/06 he did seem to show his age more in how he moved I seem to remember so maybe his final retirement was a good call timing wise. Arsenal missed him, but more as he'd been previously rather than how he was at the end I think.

    I think Wenger and Bergkamp were a good match (despite the number of times he was subbed off late in games, mainly once he'd got to a certain age), although Bergkamp's class was shown throughout his career and not dependent on playing in a Wenger team inherently.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #346 PuckVanHeel, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    I think he had still some artistic goals for Inter and the national team wasn't it (he had a chipped goal at the 1994 World Cup), but indeed, the profile in the internationals book (of 1999) mentions Inter asked him to not be too frivolous because for Inter he would have only one or two shooting opportunities each match, rather than three, four or five at Ajax. It is literally in that profile - that the club demanded the one chance shouldn't be a chip.

    I also think that retrospective looks at him are at hindsight more generous. They see his (effective) trickery against Vierchowod, Maldini, Kohler et al. and wonder whether he was really so bad and ineffective. In the 2nd season he got injured and it must be said Inter did better with him in the team over those two seasons.

    PDG1978, thanks for your ideas too (perhaps you didn't directly reply to what I wondered about but indirectly it still helped me a bit). Some of mine on the 'unknown' relate to that - hope I'll have it ready tomorrow.


     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Okay, I thought about these aspects.

    He was Ajax's most productive player (goals + assists) in each season between 1988 and 1993. Until 1990 he was mostly a quick-footed winger (a Belgian television profile from 1987 said "Another young player is Dennis Bergkamp. 17 years old and uses shirtnumber 16. He is a modern Stanley Matthews. Slick, nimble and gliding").

    His worst seasons are arguably 1994-95 and 2000-01. Both too much troubled by injuries I'd say (2000-01 also the weakest Arsenal season by the club of this period). Was interesting leadleader came up with a few prominent games from that period. Before the partnership with Henry there was a weak season.

    It seems to me some think he had always the aviophobia. But he hadn't that until the end of the 1994 World Cup. The bomb threat incident before the Brazil match (where he peculiarly played quite well and scored a nice goal) changed all that. I'd say that until that point he was a reasonably successful player at the continental level (four finals, three wins; his club Ajax was also ineligible/banned for two seasons).

    He is Wenger's most used player during his entire managerial career. Also the player with the most wins - and indeed subbed out (for Arsenal). He didn't like the rotation but think he appreciated Wenger's intentions and care later (Wenger saw his team had troubles with packed, deep defenses and Pires and Bergkamp were both 'irreplaceable' pieces for that).

    Strangely many (short) pieces about the famous Argentina goal don't say he broke the all-time scoring record with that. It was this goal with which he surpassed Wilkes.

    There were times he had for a forward quite a few tackles made. Also, during an European game against PAOK he temporarily filled in as center back.

    Maybe his outstanding Champions League performances are forgotten (Lazio, Barcelona, Dortmund etc.). I think if you add that up or do it proportionally he did better than Cantona and Zola, and possibly also better as Baggio (not always the same role/job though). A while back I went searching for the grades he received by kicker etc.

    What I always found peculiar, maybe 'strange', is the difference in how his home country and England viewed his 'mentality'.

    Why he made his national team debut aged 21 despite his talent and already doing well for Ajax: the difference between 4-3-3 (Ajax) and 4-4-2 (national team); he had been called up before but unused; he had an injury shortly before the 1990WC (at hindsight maybe not 'bad' for him personally since he could enter as a fresh face after the debacle); there were already too many 'Ajax/Amsterdam' players.

    While many have the idea he wasn't just goals and assists (and with good reason; see things as OPTA Index, or his high number of pre-assists - can't find that website back right now but PDG knows), maybe it is nowadays thought his numbers were poor. This maybe needs a post of its own ---> will perhaps do tomorrow.

    @PDG1978
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, in terms of what you were wondering about, I guess the recognition within English football in the late 90's could arguably owe in part (although my feeling about this could be wrong) to there being less of an emphasis on longevity than there can be in this century (but at the same time, there might have been more of an emphasis on recognising past legends over recent ones, in the official selections as opposed to fan-based ones).

    I think what is signified is that he really made a great impact and would be regarded already as among the best football players England had seen, while it also does confirm at least the idea that 97/98 wasn't so far removed from the previous season or two i.e he'd been showing impressive form and contributing a lot to Arsenal since he arrived (taking into account the initial settling period, and games without a goal before the two against Southampton in his debut season) plus it recognises his creative game (supplementing his goals, with already a similar amount of assists and beyond that the contribution to the cohesion of Arsenal's play and the flair/ideas). The readership of the British magazine World Soccer placed him 30-something in the top 100 of all-time of course by the end of the century too (based on points gained by being included in top 10s).

    I haven't worked out how many games it was over but those goals/assists at International level against top tier teams (generally speaking in his era too, not just over history) are definitely notable.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #349 PuckVanHeel, Oct 19, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
    The full video is here:
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_rXaZKg2CJYbmZaMDJwYnh0Rjg/preview

    I remember that I found the beginning not so great but after a while it got more interesting (with him saying that the difference between 1997-98 and his first season was his increased speed, and suchlike).


    Yes I tend to agree with this. I still liked his 90th minute winner in the Champions League though and also certain games as this (where you can see him initiating pressing triggers, too).

    Have you also seen this brief discussion? There they find it strange his parents were anglophiles, lol




    Here are all of them:



    Yes I think that looks highly generous (L'Equipe in 1999 had him also in their top 100, around 70) but would say he belongs among the five best players of the 1990s decade (1990 - 2000).

    There are not many who were really elite in both halves of the decade. Other prime candidates for the top are Baggio (leaning to him for #1 of this era) and Maldini, perhaps Romario (for Batistuta and Redondo I'm tempted to say 'no' for competing with Baggio). Bergkamp was six times nominated for the Ballon d'Or those years, more than any other creative player (yes, even more than Baggio). Also the only one to be ranked top five in both halves of the decade.



    Yes I think by 1999 there was appreciation for the steady contribution as a whole, rather than only 1997-98. He was nominated for PFA player of the year in 1998 and 1999, and for 1997 there was some confusion about why Wright made it to the PFA shortlist and not Bergkamp (said also Wright himself at the time, wondering whether DB10 his timid personality influenced this within the lad culture context of that time - generally it was thought DB10 played only slightly less good as Zola in 1996-97 wasn't it?). For 1996 Arsenal finished only fifth, but it was remembered he had the winner for qualification into Europe. Ian Wright said: "We told him [at arrival] to get us into Europe when he joined and that's exactly what he did."

    Also, and this relates to the thing about 'production', by 1999 he had 4 EPL league seasons with 10+ non-penalty goals and 2 with 10+ assists. As of 2018 - with decreased fouls and offsides per match - there are really still not many players who can say the same. Consequently, his non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes is not low at all in his own era. Add to this what he did against strong teams for the national team and from time to time his European resume (even 1999-00 towards the UEFA Cup final) and it looks pretty solid in his own generation I'd think. Of course, slightly later with Henry, Ljungberg he started to play (even) deeper, as also wm442433 mentions, but was still able to rank high in Opta/Actim index type of things in that role, or get a couple 'perfect' 1/6 grades by kicker.

    You might like the first video I think. Maybe you (or others) want to reply to this, but then I'll do the full overview.
     
  25. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #350 wm442433, Oct 19, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
    I have this Onze Mondial issue somewhere into which Bergkamp poses like this...

    [​IMG]

    ... and I had doubts if it was ironic or not. So now, it is more clear. At the time, in '92 or '93 I think, I didn't know about any possible aviophobia but when reading again later, I wondered about it.
    He looks really much kind and relatively relaxed to do that...that doesn't mean anything but yeah, it's clearer in my mind now.
    It's one of a couple or three pictures and not the main one.

    As for the paragraph I wrote about him, I could (well, should) re-write it. Not in order to change the content of it (it's not supposed to be ultra-complete or always clearly detailed btw I precise for everybody, or the ones who would just come across this one) : perhaps it could be a bit more fluid, without talking about the grammar in general/ the turns of phrases. This one is a bit too rough I guess.

    (the pic scene refers to Tintin : "Objectif Lune", ofc).
    (he was at Ajax... so it was possibly in '91 too)
    (so it was just a small parenthesis about Bergkamp and the aviophobia, yeah it was not 100% clear in my mind personally, until the last year in another thread)

    edit : I guess that it was before the '92-93 UEFA Cup quarter-finals between Ajax and Auxerre now...but I'm not really sure of this.
     
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