A joke to you is fine with me Btw which source ranked iniesta the best in his position Pro Barcelona source and journalist Matthew syed LOL Iniesta did not have the consistentcy,nor the passing ability to match the greatest CMF or AMF You can appreciate the subtleties of iniestas technique for me he does not stimulate me as a player I can’t believe your audacity that you would call Zidane inconsistent Iniesta since 13/14 has redefined the meaning of what it is to be inconsistent 5 seasons and you can count on 2 hands his world class performances Please explain his function or use in the MSN era or even last season He is a passenger piggybacking of messi’s success
Football is different today, players have a much cleaner game, almost free of violent fouls, all medical and nutritional monitoring (in Messi's case maybe even more) that they didn't have before. Before it was Van Basten retiring, footballers playing with infiltrations and Pele being injured in World Cups (some says he no longer the same after that). Messi has never had any serious injury either through effort or for some violent tackle and he is much more better physically than most players at his age. Big players had it much more tough, hard before.
This is a misconception there is nothing clear about r9 being more talented He was only better at a younger age Prime CR7 devoloped into a more complete forward better passer,better aerial threat,better FK,more two footed,better distance shooter etc You have no clue if you think prime r9 wasn’t a wasteful shooter Even in his best dribbling performances he took for Inter Milan (uefa Cup)I can show you examples of him taking 15 shots and not scoring once He was a extremely speculative shooter and ambitious Don’t let the highlight reels of him dribbling pass keepers and putting the ball into the net fool you Post peak r9 was an efficient finisher (one of the best of his era for sure) A lot of other things you said are bogus Van Basten had one great tournament ,his international career as a whole doesn’t compare to either Cristiano or Messi (both of whom took on goalscoring responsibility and creating at one point or another) And lastly please explain how r9 played a more diversified role in 97/98 than Cristiano apparently ever did LOL From 2007-2009 Ronaldo played as a WF,LW,LM,CF even AMF which r9 never did https://web.archive.org/web/2015032...no-ronaldo-how-his-style-of-play-has-changed/ Your only valid argument for r9 was his entertainment value and I agree peak Ronaldo nazario was the most skilful player I ever saw(I never saw Maradona) As an effective and dangerous dribbling threat Cristiano could match him(I’m not kidding or delusional) I think this is clear ,plus Cristiano had more in his arsenal to hurt a team unlike r9 who was mainly reliant on his finishing and athleticism R9 was compared to Maradona (arguably the best to play in Serie A) Cristiano was compared to George Best (arguably the best to play in English football history) He was a young player also compared to Eusébio... Even to maradona and Pele in 2007 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2007/apr/14/newsstory.sport Anyways what does any of this prove? Peak for peak Cristiano beats R9 in goal+assist ratio Was involved more in build up play Was a more consistent league performer Was a demonstrably more consistent champions league performer Was a more consistent performer against big European sides R9 is better at international level +ballon dor podium teammates Romario,Roberto Carlos,rivaldo,Ronaldinho,Kaká all made top 3 once in their careers Note: How many games of Puskas did you watch to determine he wasn’t a speculative shooter My guess none for Honvéd Maybe some goal highlights from WC 54 And some European Cup finals with Madrid in the late 50s and early to mid 60s
The proper Maradona being a charismatic figure is known to has drugs instead of brain, but not too long time ago he said to Ronaldo: "I have to say that if it wasn't for the injuries, you would have been the biggest in history. No doubt and I'm going over many great players. ...And besides, he's a great person ". Just out of curiosity, Maradona considers himself the best of all time: https://www.lanacion.com.ar/1558101...imo-pero-el-mejor-de-todos-los-tiempos-soy-yo
Ronaldinho was consistently decisive in La Liga but he never cared about stat-padding be that in terms of goals or assists, which he easily could've done. The list below is the outcome of how the numbers would look like when you entirely eliminate the goals and assists that were scored in blow-out wins, that is, wins where the clubs that relate to the specific players win by a difference of 3 or more goals. In simpler terms: the data below only includes statistics that were scored in all games - be that wins, defeats, or draws - all the games that were not relative blow-out wins. 22 overall / 17 open play goals / 4 assists / 1 penalty goal / 0 free kick goals / 28 games --- Ronaldo Nazario 1996/97. 21 overall / 16 open play goals / 5 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Romario 1993/94. 21 overall / 9 open play goals / 8 assists / 4 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2014/15. 21 overall / 16 open play goals / 1 assist / 4 penalty kicks / 0 free kick goals / 30 games --- Diego Costa 2013/14. 20 overall / 10 open play goals / 5 assists / 3 penalty goals / 2 free kick goals / 20 games --- Ronaldo 2013/14. 20 overall / 3 open play goals / 10 assists / 6 penalty goals / 1 free kick goal / 23 games --- Ronaldinho 2005/06. 20 overall / 15 open play goals / 5 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 24 games --- Higuain 2009/10. 19 overall / 11 open play goals / 7 assists / 1 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Luis Suarez 2017/18. 18 overall / 10 open play goals / 7 assists / 0 penalty goals / 1 free kick goals / 22 games --- Luis Suarez 2013/14. 18 overall / 9 open play goals / 4 assists / 3 penalty goals / 2 free kick goals / 24 games --- Ronaldo 2012/13. 17 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 penalty goals / 1 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2009/10. 17 overall / 13 open play goals / 4 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 21 games --- Luis Suarez 2015/16. 17 overall / 11 open play goals / 3 assists / 3 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2015/16. 17 overall / 8 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 penalty goals / 3 free kick goals / 23 games --- Ronaldo 2010/11. 16 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists * 1 out of the 4 assists for himself * / 3 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2011/12. 14 overall / 7 open play goals / 3 assists / 4 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2016/17. 12 overall / 4 open play goals / 8 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 17 games --- Luis Suarez 2014/15. 12 overall / 11 open play goals / 1 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Ronaldo 2017/18. 10 overall / 7 open play goals / 3 assists / 0 penalty goals / 0 free kick goals / 19 games --- Luis Suarez 2016/17. There are many more players - some very famous, some underrated - that deserve to be included, but I currently just don't have the time to make it a more comprehensive list, albeit the end result of a more expansive list would likely be more or less identical, that is, Ronaldo invariably becomes slightly less efficient than Romario 1993/94, despite playing for more stacked clubs than Romario, despite taking considerably more shots than Romario (especially those highly speculative long shots that were Ronaldo's signature in the 2009-13 years, compared to Romario who rarely tried to shot from distance), despite taking all the free kicks, despite taking all the penalty kicks, etc. Not to mention the fact that players as (considering the context) 'ordinary' as Diego Costa and Gonzalo Higuain have Ronaldo-like open play statistics, in fact, better open play figures than a significant portion of Ronaldo's entire La Liga career. Which already brings me to what I believe is the crux of the Ronaldinho v Cristiano debate, that is, in the specific context that is this thread that was created by @carlito86 of all of posters. The poster known as @carlito86 loves Maradona with what appears to be religious awe, so Carlito of all people in this forum should - if he were actually consistent and unbiased with those rather abstract skills that he values when Maradona is the author - Carlito of all people should have a special comprehension and appreciation for what statistics are in the context that is Maradona's club form, especially in the Serie A and the UEFA Cup, where Maradona's statistical impact was arguably inflated by a bunch of free kicks and penalty kicks which is why Maradona's very few open play goals don't look as bad as they'd look if Maradona didn't have those penalty kicks and free kicks, etc. Why is @carlito86 such a religious fanatic when he pontificates about Maradona's exploits in Europe, when Maradona's club record in Europe is remarkably similar to that of Ronaldinho, except for the fact that Maradona was not consistently replicating his best form against well oiled clubs that had all-time-caliber defensive ability in the form of John Terry (in his prime), Ricardo Carvalho (in his prime), Claude Makelele (still capable), Andrea Pirlo (in his prime), Gennaro Gattuso (in his prime), Paolo Maldini (still capable), Alessandro Nesta (still capable), etcetera? Ronaldinho scored 6 penalty kicks, but a significant portion of those penalty kicks were directly assisted or pre-assisted by a 'maestro' pass by Ronaldinho himself, which then adds to those penalty kicks that Ronaldinho himself wins by virtue of getting fouled inside of the box. Moreover, Ronaldinho scored 10 assists in 23 competitive games, but it could've easily been 18 assists for Ronaldinho if any analyst would care to make an accurate count of just how many clear-cut chances were wasted by Henrik Larsson alone. And finally, Ronaldinho scored only 3 open play goals in 23 games, because he sucks at open play goals, or simply because he couldn't care less about scoring goals in routine league games where his passing ability (which itself was invariably maximized by his GOAT level ball retention ability) was already statistically the most decisive factor in the outcome of many of those league games? If that was Maradona's achievement, @carlito86 wouldn't ever shut up about how consistently great he was against great defensive clubs, great clubs that were objectively excellent in the dark arts, very much unlike England 1986 (competitive, but not great), Belgium 1986 (competitive, but again not great), and Germany 1986 (competitive, but if any serious analyst made a list of the best German sides of all time, Germany 1986 probably wouldn't be mentioned as one of the better sides), etc. But of course, Ronaldinho doesn't have a World Cup like Maradona's 1986, and that appears to be the difference between loving or hating Ronaldinho, that is, from Carlito's point of view... because other than that one thing, Ronaldinho 2005/06 is arguably the player who is most similar to Maradona i.e. not the most devastating dribbler in the world, but so special at the art of ball retention, and so special at the art of passing, that more often than not there's just no way of stopping them. In conclusion: Cristiano Ronaldo never was as constant as Ronaldinho was in 2005/06, because Ronaldo never was as great a player as Ronaldinho was in his 2005/06 form. Passing and ball retention when done to the GOAT standard of Ronaldinho/Maradona, is almost impossible to defend, which becomes all the more evident in the difficult games against the best defenders and/or against the best defensive teams. On the other hand, what Cristiano Ronaldo does, a lot of it fundamentally and objectively is stat-padding, which is why he never has been a constant player, even in 2017 - unquestionably his most constant year at the Champions League but also arguably his most overrated year in terms of La Liga form - even in 2017 Ronaldo was lucky that Atletico Madrid had declined compared to the surrounding years, which then added to the referee job against Bayern Munich, etc. Cristiano Ronaldo is a player with extraordinary longevity (and even this aspect of his legend is arguably inflated by the super-club disparity that defined the era), but his constancy as a player has never been unique nor special (and this aspect of his legend unequivocally is hidden in plain sight, minimized in plain sight, by his devastating statistics in blow-out wins i.e. the stat-padding that largely defines his 'killer mentality with no off button' playing style).
^ @leadleader Great data! What took me by surprise is the sheer number of huge blowouts by 3+ goals that Madrid and Barcelona are winning. These samples average at around 22 matches meaning that most of the rest are blowouts wins since these players don't miss many matches. I knew that the big clubs really dominate but this is more than I expected. Top players will often score a hat trick in a 7-1 trashing of the last team on the table and that's worth three times more than a single goal in a 1-0 win over the best team in the world. That's not right.
Ok. Neymar was never close to Messi. Neymar got 7%. Messi got 41% and Ronaldo got 27%. In 2010, Messi got only 22%!!! Xavi with 16% and iniesta with 17%!!! Big difference!!! And Neymar was the closest! During the days of 08-12 many thought iniesta and/or xavi were more important to barcas success than Messi. Since those two have left, no one on Barcelona has been so comparable with Messi
@carlito86 at the end of the day, I can agree with you that CR7 is as good as Ronaldinho in technique even though Ronaldinho and his aesthetics look better. I only brought up iniesta and xavi because you said Zidane was somehow better or technically superior because he 'stimulates you'. If this is your argument then Ronaldinho is better technically than CR7. I don't believe for a second that Zidane has better technique or passing than xavi or iniesta. 2 players that were running the midfield on arguably the best teams in history on teams that revolved heavily on dominating possession. It just doesn't make sense. In any case, my stance between Ronaldinho and CR7 as far as league games and big games are concerned, I'm on the same boat as @leadleader I already said, if it was the case that CR7s league games against smaller teams could not be won consistently without him, then I would rate CR7 higher as far as the importance of prodution. But throughout CR7s career, especially at Madrid, they could consistently win without CR7 against the smaller teams. So at this point, I will judge Ronaldinho and CR7 on their ability to break down the most difficult defenses. And Ronaldinho wins in that category within a 2 yr period.
I was caught by surprise by a number of things that I didn't quite expected, for example, Ronaldo in the games that were not blow-out wins, he appears to literally fail to score almost 50% of his penalty kicks, so the list that I provided is actually worse than it looks, because almost every single time that Ronaldo has 3 penalty kicks, that means that Ronaldo actually took 6 penalty kicks but only managed to score half, so Ronaldo's conversion rate from penalty kicks is significantly inferior to Ronaldinho's, on top of the fact that Ronaldinho is considerably more involved in the direct creation and also the indirect creation of these penalty kicks. It is in essence the same problem with the free kicks: for every 0 free kicks out of 20 something games by Ronaldo, it is an educated and a safe assumption to just assume that Ronaldo was a relatively atrocious free kick taker in those 20 something games, so Ronaldo not only scored 0 free kicks in 20 something games, but Ronaldo also monopolized the free kicks in such a way that when he didn't scored any free kicks in those 20 something league games, then in all probability the club itself didn't scored any free kicks... Another negative that you just don't get with many other prolific goal scorers. Moreover, look at what happens to the (already unimpressive) statistics when and if you're willing to completely ignore penalty kicks. 13 overall / 10 open play goals / 4 assists / 0 free kick goals / 18 games --- Ronaldo 2011/12 12 overall / 4 open play goals / 8 assists / 0 free kick goals / 17 games --- Luis Suarez 2014/15. This is the Luis Suarez that was adapting to a new league, the Suarez that missed a bunch of league games, and the Suarez that consequently started slow in the league due to lacking match fitness after his lengthy suspension for having bitten Chiellini, and even with all those factors against him, Suarez still has an almost identical goal involvement as the - for many fans - the most devastating version of Cristiano Ronaldo ever. Ronaldo 2011/12 is widely credited for having almost single-handedly elevated Real Madrid, but to believe that you'd have to believe that in the other 20 league games that were won by 3 goals or more... You'd have to believe that Ronaldo can do that 20 times in a league season, which would make no sense because then you'd have to explain how a player who can do that for 20 out of 38 games then only wins 1 title out of 9 titles on the basis of actual statistical greatness (he was not statistically great in the 2017 league title, which is his only other league title), etc. 18 overall / 11 open play goals / 7 assists / 0 free kick goals / 23 games --- Luis Suarez 2017/18. 15 overall / 9 open play goals / 4 assists / 2 free kick goals / 24 games --- Ronaldo 2012/13. The amazing Ronaldo 2012/13 has inferior goal involvement to a past-his-prime Luis Suarez...
Monopolizing free kicks is a given with Ronaldo. Still to cut the guy some slack, I don't know that there is/was a Madrid player who is better at those than he is. So the issue isn't really the monopolizing but not converting a higher percentage. The penalty conversion of close to 50% is pretty alarming. I'd be interested to know the circumstances of the misses. Because if his team is up 4-0 and he misses a penalty then the other team scores two goals late to make the final scoreline 4-2, it's really not a big deal. But if a penalty is missed at 0-0 or 0-1 or 1-1, basically match in doubt, and it finishes that way or worse and leads to lost points, then it's huge. Even if it's missed at a level score and his team ends up winning just barely, it's still kind of bad. It would be a lot of work but a detailed analysis of penalty shooting would have to look at the real-time score on the pitch as well as the subsequent flow and outcome of the game etc. My personal opinion is that goal totals should be always broken down into open-play goals, free kicks, and penalties and that free kick attempts should also be tallied. How you want to interpret the data is up to each individual but it should be easily available on soccer databases. Kind of like how basketball separates points scored into field goals, 3pt field goals, and free throws. It paints a more complete picture of a player.
LOL You have amazingly discovered that superteams like Madrid and Barcelona have a lot of games where they simply blow smaller teams away...and stat padding as you call it is a reason why Ronaldo is overrated as a scorer Santos in the 60s averaged 3 goals per game In those very games they were putting up score astronomical score lines There is a guy called Emilio castano who complied goal from stats all of Pele’s matches A lot of these game had scores like cricket or rugby matches Santos 11-0 Botafogo Ribeirão Preto 8 Santos 11-1 Maringá 5 Santos 10-3 Nitro-Química 5 Santos 10-0 Nacional 5 Santos 10-1 Royal Neerschot 5 Santos 10-2 Guarani 5 Santos 10-1 Juventus http://pele.m-qp-m.us/english/pele_statistics.shtml The same can be said of Eusébio,Kocsis,Puskás who played for very high scoring teams,in high scoring eras and no doubt participated in alot of outrageous score lines Cristiano ronaldos big game record against big teams stands scrutiny against any name in football history 10 goals+2 assists in 7 games vs Juventus 9 goals + 1 assist in 8 games vs Bayern munich 22 goals+8 assists in 29 games vs Atlético Madrid All above a goal a game ratio against some of the biggest sides Hence the reason Carlo ancelotti said when you have Cristiano you start a game 1-nil up In fa Cup finals Copa Del Rey finals Champions league semifinals Champions league finals Ronaldo has 27 goals(2 pen)+2 assists in 31 matches (Nearly half of these have come in champions league semifinals) Ronaldos involvement in his teams goals cannot be understated In the champions league he was directly involved in 50% of real Madrid’s goals across 9 seasons This is unprecedented Bottom line Prime Cristiano is a considerably better volume scorer than Romario/r9 Considerably Better then them in big matches A better dribbler than Romario (by far) A better creator,passer,crosser,involved more in the build up to his teams attack’s A comparison isn’t valid(at all) Romario didn’t have the ability nor longevity at the highest level (his role was always limited to scoring btw even poachers like RVN had a substantial amount of assists but NOBODY claimed they had vision or were great team players Prime Romario can maybe compete with post peak c.Ronaldo (2015-),Luís Suárez(13/14),Van Basten etc He cannot compete with a player who was demonstrably superior in his prime in every conceivable facet of the game Note: With R9 too much hinges on what ifs. Based on what he accomplished (and not what he potentially could’ve) he also isnt comparable to prime CR7 for all the reasons above (except arguably in dribbling) Remember in 2009/10(the season we are comparing him to Romario in) CR7 scored 33 in 35 games:0.94 R9 scored 47 in 49 games:0.96 Romario scored 32 goals in 47 matches:0.68 CR7 and R9 are comparable in goal output.romario isn’t at all Lastly Ronaldo had his best performances against better teams in La Liga 09/10 At home Against Villarreal(7th place) final score 6-2 He scored one phenomenal FK (he earned) and created 4 goals (2 assists,1 earned penalty and 1 through ball pre assist) He was as performing at a superlative and all time level here according to most match reports https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/feb/22/cristiano-ronaldo-real-madrid-villarreal Away Against Villarreal earlier in the season he scored a goal to rival any of r9s in 1996/97 I defy you to find me a single goal scored by R9 for Inter Milan or Barcelona where he dribbled past more players (having players hanging of your shirt doesn’t count) He never scored a better dribbling goal in Europe against an equal opponent or even a worse team Against Mallorca (4th place) Final score 4-1 He scored a phenomenal hat trick to bring Madrid back from 1-0 down http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/12/span...al-madrid-cristiano-ronaldo-treble-guides-los “Once again, Ronaldo was at the heart of everything, and was everywhere. He harried defenders, ran at full-backs, played incisive passes and crucially was the clinical finisher that Madrid have desperately needed...” This match winning performance put Madrid within 1 point of Barcelona with two matches left Ronaldo de Lima 96/97 had his best matches against mid level to poor teams Valencia (10th place )hat trick performance Compostela (11th place) iconic solo goal Romario 93/94 Had his best performances vs Real Sociedad (11th place) Atlético Madrid (12th place) Even arguably his best vs Real Madrid (4th place) was overrated Firstly Real Madrid had the 2nd weakest defence from top 10 ranked teams in La Liga They conceded 50 goals(10th place Tenerife conceded 52 goals) Secondly I have watched this performance several times and yes he scored 1 great technical goal were he shifts the ball from the defender After this he scored 2 tapins into an empty net All in all a typical strikers performance The performance is overhyped on the basis of a single goal against a defensively suspect team who barely finished top 4 in their own league (09/10 Barcelona the team Ronaldo failed against is widely considered one of the best club teams ever-there is no comparison You are foolish if you think every Madrid side is great or good Added to this in 2009/10 Ronaldo singlehandedly destroyed the french champions Marseille in the champions league 4 goals+2 assists in 2 matches (0 penalties) 6 goal involvements out of 6 team goals (in addition to the many dribbles he made,chances he created,shots he took and fouls he earned) https://www.transfermarkt.com/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/1?saison=2009 You cannot compare a dynamic winger/forward to a CF Not just because their roles are different but because Ronaldo is in this period the player with the most key passes in the final third,an extremely direct dribbling threat from anywhere in the oppositions half In addition to the above Ronaldo is scoring at all time rate 0.94 was one of the highest goal ratios in a top 5 European league between 1990-2010(just beneath r9 96/97 by 0.02%)
@leadleader AC Milan 03-07 is a vastly overrated club side IMO not a patch on Arrigo Sacchi‘s Milan probably not even at the same level as Juventus 1996-1998 A back four of Cafu-Stam-Nesta-Maldini looks impressive in paper but with the exception of Nesta they were all past it by then AC Milan 03-07 were also a very unimpressive league side in a declining period of Italian football In 2005/06 AC Milan finished 3rd in the league In the 2005/06 champions league season before AC Milan played Barcelona in the semis they faced Schalke PSV Fernabache Bayern Munich Lyon A relatively easy route for such a great champions league team (as you would consider them) Note:bundesliga was going through a very weak era in the mid 2000s. 2005/06 Bayern Munich is only an impressive team by its history and name https://m.dw.com/en/is-the-bundesliga-too-weak/a-1705598 Ronaldinho did not face a AC Milan side that had remotely the same level of quality and depth as the Barcelona side faced by c.Ronaldo,the Madrid side faced by Messi,the Bayern side (2012-2017) faced by both,the Juventus or Madrid teams that R9 played against 1996-1998 and definitely not the Milan side maradona faced in the same 80s Even in 2006/07 they (Milan)again had a VERY easy route to the final (and finished 4th in the league post Calciopoli) Their route to the finals included AEK Athens Lillie Anderlecht Celtic Bayern Munich(a big team in name only) A depleted Manchester United defence (which is very important to note because Milan were a counter attacking side that had the pace to expose inadequate slow players) Milan( and Kaká )played against a very unimpressive United back line O’Shea,injured Heinze,Wes brown,Patrice evra They were missing crucial defenders in that first leg(Rio Ferdinand,Nemanja Vidic) Liverpool (a team that until last season hasn’t been really impressive as a collective since the late 80s) You are the most disingenuous poster I have encountered in my entire life. The lengths and efforts you go to diminish the worth of every opponent faced by Real Madrid But you completely turned a blind eye to how inconsistent Miland league form is (in a declining league with no super clubs )and how fortunate they were in their champions league draws Between 04-07 milan never played a single great club side in the CL who were at full strength and managed to come out on top(even losing against Liverpool who finished 5th in the EPL lol) This lack of defensive discipline highlights perhaps way more than anything else why they are definitely not a historic team They are merely one of the best club sides of the early 2000s In the 21st century alone they would rank behind Barcelona 09-12 Madrid 16-18 Bayern Munich 12-17 Atlético Madrid 13-17 Manchester United 07-09 Barcelona 14/15 Real Madrid 11-14 Arsenal 03/04 Chelsea 05-09 Juventus 2015- In terms of league form they were not more impressive than Deportivo or Arsenal of the early 2000s, Their deep forays into the champions league has a lot to do with how fortunate they were to face either mostly poor sides (or incomplete like Manchester United in 2007) Ronaldinho was great against a good Milan team (no doubt) however they were light years from being historic or dominant. @ko242 using Ronaldinho’s performance against Milan as evidence he reached a superlative level is nonsense as I’ve taken the time to show Chelsea 2004/05 is a great defensive team (arguably the best of the last 20 years) Mourinho made Stamford bridge in particular an impenetrable fortresses Dinho gets full credit for that amazing (and inventive)goal he scored Real Madrid 05/06 is another overrated club side IMO 20% of his legacy hinges on this performance where he exposed the defensive inefficiency of a young Sergio Ramos A standing ovation (not from the whole or even half the stadium but a section of fans) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/liverpool-fans-applaud-cristiano-ronaldo-after-master-class-for-real-madrid-despite-his-manchester-9812740.html?amp CRonaldo received a standing ovation from Liverpool fans at Anfield and Juventus fans at the Allianz stadium You never hear this being used as proof of his greatness Ronaldinho had such a short time as a top player that his achievements are simply exaggerated to the fullest extent possible To make him seem better then he actually was Note Real Madrid were in 2005 a club in the decline Zidane was coming of a horrible season Raúl had easily the worst season of his Madrid career R9 struggling with injury issues,and never consistent even when he managed to gain a run of matches There are holes I could dig all day long but it’s pointless because you have your minds already made up
Xavi was Barcelona’s 2nd most important player (no doubt) from 2009-2011 the 2010 ballon dor ranking proved nothing for iniesta however Who had a poor 09/10 league and champions league campaign His whoscored ratings don’t compare to other players in his own position let alone Messi/Ronaldo Iniesta 09/10 League 7.33 Champions league 6.94 Wesley Sneijder 09/10 League 7.43 Champions league 7.31 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/4923/History/Wesley-Sneijder Cesc Fabregas League 8.25 Champions league 8.08 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/8040/History/Cesc-Fàbregas Castrol ranked him 50th best player for the 2010 calendar year and outside the top 10 for the 2010 World Cup https://www.goal.com/en-india/news/...most-effective-player-of-2010-and-should-win- FourFourTwo ranked him 7th for the 2010 calendar year(very generous in my opinion) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fourfourtwo-100-best-players-in-the-world.1624995/ Before his overrated golden ball(where he effectively did nothing of note besides his winning goal)nobody talked about iniesta being one of the best in Europe during 2009/10 Rooney,fabregas,Drogba,lampard were the best in epl,Milito and Sneijder the best in Italy Robben the best in Germany ,Messi Ronaldo,xavi,Higuain the best in Spain All these players (and morehad demonstrably better seasons And the above is part of the reason why I believe iniesta is truly the most overrated player since perhaps Rossi (1982 and at least he had a way better World Cup to support his case ) Sorry if I don’t buy into the hype of iniesta but football is a game purely based on results Iniesta never looked like a game changer over the course of one entire season Goalscoring isn’t his forte but why do Sergio Ramos and John Terry have more goals in their career How can a goat midfielder be that ineffective as a goalscorer (it’s unheard of) Nobody asked him to score at the rate of platini but even 10 goals per season (in a super team that scores close to 150 goals per season!!!) His assist tally is very shocking as well(and he has never been a master of the pre assist even remotely comparable to modric-hence the reason nobody complains about modric having a relatively low assist tally) Nobodies legacy hinges on isolated moments like iniesta Future fans will look at his 2nd place ranking in 2010 and think he was elite and comparable to Messi LMFAO FIFA needed a poster boy to represent Spain’s dominance on the international scene and he was the lucky pick of the draw In that World Cup he wasn’t more important than Ramos,alonso or David villa (just from his own team) @ko242 you asked me about better midfielders I’ve listed a few but almost forgot one A shame to see Yaya Toure leaving the Premier League at the end of the season. Hasn't played much the past few seasons but in his prime he was one of the best in the world. His 13/14 season stats are sensational, pic.twitter.com/KupKg9Epta— Tom Sleeman (@TomSleeman11) May 4, 2018 In his prime 2013/14 he was a force of nature,a defensive rock and game changer Iniesta never reached this level and I don’t care how many finals he was lucky to play or trophies he won or controversial MOTM awards he received From an individual perspective he wasn’t at this level (CLEARLY) http://www.sportbible.com/football/...he-best-midfielder-in-world-football-20180504 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.pu...re-among-five-best-midfielders-hes-faced/amp/ Many believe he was very unlucky not to win the PFA best player award in 2013/14 Based on prime only he shits on George weah,Eto’o and Drogba and if comparing him only to iniesta in their respective best season most fans would pick yaya toure (if not unanimously) This isn’t controversial Toure was after all widely considered by his peers to be the best midfielder in the world during 2013/14 (If his ballon dor rankings didn’t confirm this it just goes to show how overrated individual awards can be especially in iniesta’s case-a player who doesn’t have to do much to garner votes)
Punishing Romario for being more efficient, determinant and accomplished more things in his debut at Barcelona even being more 'specific' seems to very wrong imo. To be honest, Cristiano Ronaldo would have been more efficient and effective if he had the same positioning of the last few years (it was a shame that he was already out of the his peak when it happened, except maybe for 2014-2015 and 2013-2014). But at his peak Cristiano Ronaldo was an unnecessary and wasted player in the middle of the pitch, when Real Madrid had Ozil, Guti, proper injured Kaka, Modric, Kroos to build the plays (all of them clearly better playmakers than Ronaldo). In this case he could have concentrated in create his shots, used his creativity and plays closer to the big area like he did in 2014/2015 - and at some extent in 2013/2014 - than be always returning to help the midfielders, running the entire pitch like a horse and shooting more than half the time outside of the box area with very low goal conversion. When Ronaldo stopped running to the midfield, disrupting unnecessarily the dynamics of the team, especially against Leganese's and Osasuna's that RM would win the game anyway, Real Madrid won 3 consecutive champions. Ronaldo is a striker, not a creator. He simply doesn't have the quality that a creator needs. No surprise that in your data, Ronaldo was more efficient in 2013/2014 and in 2014/2015 than in his physical peak at Real Madrid. __________________________________ Now the next step is know how many shoots per game Ronaldo made to reach these marks. In UCL 2015/2016 for example he gave 8.1 shots per game!!! and only 3.3 on target. Normal people just think he made 16 goals and Real Madrid was the champions, so he is the man, and they just forget the rest.
Also according the official site of Premier League you can see that Ronaldo always had been a ambitious shooter: https://www.premierleague.com/players/2522/Cristiano-Ronaldo/stats?co=1&se=15 14 NPK Goals, 8 assists in 34 Games, 36% shooting accuracy 2006/2007 27 NPK Goals, 6 assits in 34 Games, 44% shooting accuracy 2007/2008 14 NPK Goals, 6 assists in 33 Games, 31% shooting accuracy 2008/2009 Compare with Salah https://www.premierleague.com/players/5178/Mohamed-Salah/stats?co=1&se=79 31 NPK, 10 assists in 36 Games, 47% of shooting accuracy 2017/2018 ______________________________________ Cristiano Ronaldo built his myth playing in dominant teams (Real Madrid had 3 consecutive champions without the presence of the 'creative' version of Cristiano Ronaldo) and in a less disputed league (La Liga), had he continued in Manchester and in the Premier (which is much more physical and demanding) and I would say he would not have come close to having his stats bumped like he did in Madrid. Very notable club player of course, but legendary more by his consistency, athleticism, by made himself present and durability (and all the marketing) than his proper peak, dominance and efficiency. Veridict: Overrated
And there I was thinking you had some sense Real Madrid is an extension of his legacy (not his whole legacy) With 3x consecutive European player of the year awards 1x FIFA World player of the year 2x PFA best player 1x European golden shoe 1x Puskás goal of the year 1x champions league best player,top scorer,CL final MOTM etc many sources ranked Ronaldo at 24 years old(2009) as an all time club legend These include your beloved Pelé (2009) https://www.goal.com/en/news/9/engl...stiano-ronaldo-reminds-me-of-george-best-pele Johan Cruyff (2008) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ohan-cruyff-pays-cristiano-ronaldo-725552.amp FourFourTwo listed him the greatest foreign import in premier league history https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...ier-league-players-ever-no1-cristiano-ronaldo A online poll by Manchester United fans voted him the greatest player in their history https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....player-in-fan-poll/1u6tnthkoix711hvzg52vn7njw Bearing in mind this is one of the most successful clubs in European football history 19 league titles,3 European cups/2 finals and Ronaldo left this club 3 months after he turned 24 years old Within this context a player like Romario is an extremely average player. at 24 he was a nobody compared to CR7 . the same can be said about rivaldo,Ronaldinho,Kaka and any and every single Brazilian legend with the exception of Pelé and Ronaldo de Lima Nobody cares (historians,fans,pundits etc) about bloody shot accuracy or shot conversion stats Statistics read Ronaldo was directly involved in just under 600 goals in 9 seasons While playing as a creative forward he propelled his team 2007-2012 to 4 league titles+1 champions league+1 final+1 fa cup +1 Copa Del Rey As a complete goalscorer(2013/14) he propelled Real Madrid to a historic 10th champions league title The golden standard 17 goals+5 assists+2 pre assists in 11 matches Ratio:2.18 goals per match https://www.transfermarkt.com/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/plus/0?saison=2013 Nobody in football history compares in continental competitions Not even your darling Pelé (or even zico) Zico 1981(Copa libertadores) 11 goals +4 assists in 14 matches Pelé 1962 Copa libertadores 9 goals in 6 matches And lastly From 2016-2018 Ronaldo won 1 league title +3 European cups as a CF (like Puskás in Madrid) In their declining years they became strikers(and still amongst the best players in the world) Bottom line You did not watch full matches of Pele,Eusébio,peak Puskás to determine they weren’t speculative shooters If you claim you have you are definitely lying So your assumption that ronaldos Speculative shooting is unprecedented is based on conjecture and anti European bias (you are well known for this) @Tropeiro You cannot account for your god Pele’s goals scored against amateur teams in state championships 1.)If you remove his goals in friendlies 2.)Remove his goals scored against bartenders masquerading as professional players in state championships 3.)Remove his goals scored in the amateur league known as NASL Pele will end up with a goal tally similar to luis Suárez,Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Ronaldo de Lima (with all his injuries) Around 400 goals no more no less(instead of the fairytale of 1200+ goals) C.Ronaldo scored 95% of his goals vs 1st tier professional teams (top 5 European leagues) And the remaining against minnows (Andorra,Malta..whatever you get the point) Pelé is the greatest player of his time (undoubtedly) But the most overrated goalscorer in the history of football https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/pelé-is-way-overrated-as-a-scorer.2028357/ The evidence is so overwhelming that it is ridiculous to even attempt to dispute it Nobody outscored c.Ronaldo on his own team in any season during his prime 2007- Explain to me how a player with 1 cap for the Brazilian national team scored 60 goals for Santos in 1966(a season in which Pele was largely injured) And in 1968 scored 75 goals. A player who was only capped once by Brazil!!!! The equivalent would be roberto Soldado going to Real Madrid during ronaldos prime and replicating his level of goalscoring(and even outscoring him) Impossible
Goals Andres Iniesta (midfielder) 80 goals in 868 matches Ratio:0.09 goals per match John Terry (defender) 74 goals in 837 matches Ratio:0.09 goals per match Sergio Ramos (defender) 95 goals in 785 matches 0.12 goals per match Branislav Ivanović (Defender) 68 goals in 700 games Ratio 0.1 goals per match https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....than-barcelona-midfielder-andres-iniesta/amp/ It's 361 days since Iniesta scored or assisted a league goal. But he's in the team to make reducers so that's ok.— Duncan Alexander (@oilysailor) March 22, 2015 https://www.squawka.com/en/news/andres-iniesta-decline-at-barcelona/340360 This is what I meant by him being an extremely inefficient scorer And @ko242 would still insist at the time he’s one of the best players in the world
Pele (Libertadores 1962) only played only one game of three final games vs Penarol for the title, the last one. Santos won the first game for 2 a 1, lost for Penarol for 3 a 2 and in the decisive game when Pele played and that was the result: And just for the sake of conscience, Santos and Brazilian clubs gave the least of esteem to the Libertadores, touring in other continents gave much more money and prestige at that time. Santos has qualified several times for the Libertadores, played a few times only, declined many. Real Madrid, who only won La Liga twice in 9 years in Ronaldo's time, only focused on the UCL since they were unable to be more consistent than Barcelona in the local league. . That's the final between Atletico de Madrid and Real Madrid in 2014: RM just won thanks to the Capitán:
You are talking about Toninho Guerreiro, right? He had 280 Goals in 373 OFFICIAL Games between 1963 and 1969 for Santos, which is good, but not Pele's peak level playing as 10. http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2016/07/14/pele-10-formation/ and still at his peak Toninho Guerreiro made 85 Goals in 170 Matches in São Paulo, so it is more than obvious that he was being benefited by the services of Pele in his time and he was a Centroavante not a Ponta-de-Lança like Pelé. Also Jairzinho scored more goals than Pele in 1970 and? Pele still had a very fantastic cup in 1970 according France Football and had 6 assist + 4 goals in 6 matches. For example, Luis Suarez also outscored Messi in 2015/2016? Is Cristiano Ronaldo better than Messi because of that? But Pelé yes had more impact in Santos than Messi in Barcelona, what about Cristiano at Madrid? http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-ii-club-performance/ let alone in their NT's: http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/ or Finals: http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2016/06/27/pele-messi-finals/ The fact is Ronaldo was never outscored in his clubs because he was receiving most of the balls just like now in Juventus: https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/the...-goalless-juventus/1gu70exbyy3bl1mc6stvc08mdn And that's even when Ronaldo sucks at Madrid: Cristiano Ronaldo has the worst shot conversion rate in Europe's top five leagues this season with one goal from 55 attempts... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...tiano-Ronaldo-worst-shot-conversion-rate.html
You still don't get it. I don't know if you are capable of understanding such a concept. I will try one more time... When you play on arguably the greatest team of all time, you are held to a higher standard. For example a player who plays on Barcelona 08-12, expected to win 3-5 trophies in a year must play at a higher standard than a team with an expectation of 1 trophy a year. Do you agree?? When you play with the greatest player(s) of all time, you have to raise your level of game in order to play consistently for the team. For example, Barcelona vs Man City or Arsenal. Do you agree?? When you play with the greatest player of all time (arguably), you will not look as good than if you play with one of the best players in modern day. Example, Lionel Messi vs David Silva or Milito. Do you agree?? When you play with arguably the greatest player of all time, your role on the team will be decreased compared to playing with one of the best modern day players. For example: Messi vs Aguero, Maicon, or Van Persie. Do you agree?? So before you bring up players like Toure, Sneijder, and Fabregas just remember to think about these questions. And also remember that no player playing with Messi on the same team has been so close to outdoing Messi than Iniesta and Xavi. Also don't forget of the players you mentioned, Iniesta was the only player to win the best player in Europe in 2012. Also don't forget that without Messi, iniesta and xavi were key players for arguably the best NT ever!! Arguably 2 of the 3 most important players in their 08-12 run. So think about that for a second before you say anything else. The more I debate with you @carlito86, I begin to assume that either you don't watch games or that you watch games with the same understanding as that of the typical YouTuber. Quoting people from Twitter because they made a quick check on Google. People who are so busy watching EPL and only take interest in watching Barcelona when they meet an English team in the EPL. People so simple minded in so unknowleagable about the game that brute strength, speed, goals are the only thing such people can take from the game of soccer. People who still don't understand the significance of Guardiola's system even after Man City smashed everyone in the league by almost 20 points last season, probably think it came down to luck and fortunate circumstances.
Dude this is all propaganda In 1966 Pele was out injured for the vast majority of the season yet Toninho Guerreiro still managed 60 goals that season (without the so called creative assistance of Pele) Toninho is no Suárez so that is a false equivalence Toninho had 1 cap for the NT Suarez is arguably a top 3 CF of the last 20 years Pelé benefitted from his teammates in a way perhaps no goal scorer ever has When Pele got injured in 62 Brazil went on to score 12 goals in 4 matches (3 goals per match) Brazil had a such a talented generation that Pele wasn’t even needed (in his prime) to win a World Cup trophy Jairzinho outscored and out dribbled Pele in 1970 playing on the same team,so he is a player that certainly doesn’t help your case Peles teams made Pele not the other way round (Santos made a goat level scorer out of a nobody Toninho Guerreiro a player who outscored most of peles most prolific seasons) Pele could never dominate a World Cup playing on the best international team in history He was outshone by didi in 58,Garrincha in 62 and jairzinho In 70(arguably even Gerson aswell)
Now that you have spoken, I would probably have chosen Toninho Guerreiro for a super team of this era before Cristiano Ronaldo to run like a horse and losing plays. To be honest, Eusebio was probably much better and efficient than Cristiano Ronaldo too. Today's players live for marketing and hype.