The US Supreme Court Thread

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Knave, Jan 31, 2017.

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  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
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    upload_2018-9-19_1-51-7.png

    This thread
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
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  3. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
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    True. The moment the Republicans got the information about the accusation, the smart thing would have been to look for another right winger for the court. Now if the Democrats play it right, the nominating process may run out of time before the midterm elections. Plus, it may also have a significant effect on the results of the elections.
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    I'd take the Innocence project with a grain of salt die to their involvement with Amanda Knox - a convicted criminal and probable murderer.

    1. Knox was convicted of framing an innocent black man for murder
    2. After torturous appeals the Supreme Court of Italy found Knox's alibi was fales
    3. Knox was found to be most likely at the crime scene at the time of the murder
    4. Know admitted to being at the crime scene and witnessing the victims screams in a sworn statement.

    So ultimately although the Supreme Court reversed her conviction for want of sufficient proof - this is someone pretty far from "innocent"

    Furthermore as you rightly point out, the innocence or otherwise of Knox, Pistorius, Avery etc tends to rest almost 100% on claims of Police corruption or misfeasance.

    This is why it is often a false equivalence to raise the "cause célèbre" and they have no relevance to the matter at hand.
     
  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

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  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Agreed, but as the GOP controls the process and has responsibility to the Senate to place all relevant matters in evidence, they can hardly complain about the Dems approach to procedure in this instance when they themselves sought to conceal the matter.
     
  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Yes - which raises the question of why Trump & co are so attached to BK when it has been clear for a while that Cocaine Mitch favoured easier noms
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Benjamin Wittes (hardly a great friend of the admin) has also written on this topic. I think BK was misleading but perjury is a stretch. The real issue again is the efforts of the GOP to conceal the paper trail.

    1038766328092524544 is not a valid tweet id
     
  9. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
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    1 and 4 are part of the same statement, so I’m not sure you can claim one is false, while the other is accurate. They also convicted someone for killing Kercher under the scenario that she fought back against his attempt to rape her/rejected him after inviting him to her apartment...

    *shrug*

    There was so much wrong with the investigation into Kercher’s murder that it’s hard to fault IP for getting involved..
     
  10. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

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    He might not be a friend of the administration, but he is a friend of Kavanaugh’s....
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    The trouble is if you have followed the Knox case based on US coverage then basically you have followed the defence version of the proceedings spoon fed to media, rather than the Italian language reality of the proceedings.

    I can "claim it" on the basis of facts established at trial.

    1. Patrick Lumumba has a cast iron alibi established by a Swiss witness who was with him that night. Forensics establish the identity of a different male killer. As Knox clearly did not see Patrick that night, the only conclusion is that she invented the claim from whole cloth to frame Patrick - switching the identity of one black suspect for another. The reason to do this is obvious. Knox knew the real identity of the killer but unfortunately for her the police had been too slow to get up on Rudy Guede who had gone on the run. So Knox came up wth a statement that was most likely partly truthful in order to give the police an alternative killer.

    4. Here is where the misspent year in Evidence 301 kicks in.

    The statement is true for the purposes of the intent of framing Patrick Lumumba. The statement is false as to that piece of identity content. As other forensics and established evidence (e.g. the failure of her alibi) and corroboration (the screams described by Knox and heard by witnesses) place Knox at the scene - it is most likely that the statement was partially true. But it is important that the statement was held not admissible in Knox's trial. All I am saying is the verdict of the Supreme Court supports the truth of key aspects of the accused's own statement for that purpose.

    Unfortunately this is a great example of the enormous amount of disinformation in the english media as to the Prosecution case. The prosecution case against Guede is that he sexually assaulted Meredith Kercher, and held her from behind while she was stabbed from the front by Knox. It was established beyond any doubt from the forensics that there was more than one attacker and most likely 3. Guede was tried separately only because he availed himself of a fast track trial procedure which capped his maximum sentence. But the case against him was the same one.


    Actually there isn't - if you rely on the primary source material, translated by italians.

    What is unsatisfactory is that when read together the various judgements establish that Kercher was attacked by 3 people, that Knox and Sollecito were present, yet somehow only the black guy got found guilty.

    I am guessing you watched the Netflix doco? That contains so many basic errors as to be laughable.

    So yeah - the innocence project doesn't rate highly with me.
     
  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Agreed

    But I also agree with BW's analysis that Kavanaugh is too smart to obviously perjure himself in this way

    Misleading is correct.
     
  13. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Full disclosure - i spent years of my life on the Knox trial with a group of people whose key focus was the translation of the judgements and key exhibits so that they could be placed in the hands of western media. I was amazed at how much I thought I knew about the case was inaccurate.

    Then I got hooked on the Pistorius trial and all the various appeals.

    From an "innocence" perspective the core strategy is to establish a media narrative not based on primary evidence. A key strand is always police corruption/malfeasance/incompetence.

    What I learned is that this strand is seldom based on primary evidence, but more usually on bare contentions made in court by the accused's silk.

    The gold standard of this is the McCanns who recently lost in the Supreme Court of Portugal and had to pay 100s of K in damages vs "disgraced detective" Amaral.

    The Court's finding was that Amaral's book about the case presents a fair and accurate description of the police case against the McCanns and thus the book could be published and no damages were available to the McCanns. In particular the Mccann's "evidence" was laughed out of Lisbon at the trial.

    Despite this ruling being available to the UK media, it's never consulted as a primary source by the media - who simply report the McCann's spin on the case.

    my 02c

    Innocence is much more likely to be found with poor unsophisticated defendants who get jammed up.

    Those cases don't have much to do with Brett K
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Yes.

    But isn't that why we have investigative processes and examine witnesses under oath?

    From my perspective this is all about risk analysis. At this stage the allegation appears credible and has basic corroboration.

    Therefore as a question of risk, we don't need to put a potential rapist on the Court.

    This is about what is right for the people of America, not BK
     
  15. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Also - in case you think I only take the prosecution side in cases I was a big supporter of Dougherty in the 1990s

    He was positively IDed by the victim as a child rapist. DNA analysis subsequently proved it was not him as a question of scientific fact. But proving it in Court to get him released after he was already convicted was a nightmare and took years. In that case sperm DNA did not match. But the prosecution surmised that it got on the victims underwear via the washing machine. As the jury believed this, it was a nightmare to fix, as it is hard to overturn findings of fact on appeal. The victim apparently accepts that Reekie is the real offender, but remembers Dougherty who was her neighbour - possibly trauma?.

    Quotes from the victim

     
  16. NORML

    NORML Member+

    Aug 9, 2002
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    I honestly don't see how a delay after midterms or Kavanaugh not even being confirmed helps the Democrats this November. If anything it will be a huge rallying cry to motivate GOP voters to maintain control of the legislature.
     
    sitruc and Dr. Wankler repped this.
  17. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    It's also a rallying cry to the left that if they don't take the legislature, Congress will continue to roll over for Trump's bad decisions. I would guess that the voting effect is neutral -- both sides will become even more motivated than they already are.
     
  18. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
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    So long as the left doesn't go all, "I can't vote for that person who doesn't accept 100% of my values," it will be. But if the leftiest of the left decides that their rigorously maintained personal purity is more important . . . ..
     
    Deadtigers and sitruc repped this.
  19. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    The left does that when it is complacent. No complacency now. The kvetchers will vote the straight Dem ticket this election. Perhaps not the next, but in this one they will.
     
    Deadtigers, MattR and Q*bert Jones III repped this.
  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    i think the evidence shows that all this stuff is far more motivating for the left and is demotivating on the right.

    Polling shows BK is massively unpopular.

    it makes sense

    Voting to say thanks for mah scotus or tax cut is much less persuasive than voting to save Roe, repeal Obamacare etc

    meanwhile rapey noms depresses turnout
     
  21. NORML

    NORML Member+

    Aug 9, 2002
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    Maybe I'm being greedy but I don't want anything that will motivate the right to turn out and vote this midterm. I think it is imperative that the GOP under Trump is meet with a resounding defeat.
     
    Dr. Wankler repped this.
  22. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
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    If the Republicans are seen as cynically trying to minimize an accusation of attempted rape in order to rush the process and get a particular judge in the Supreme Court, do you not think it might motivate progressives - especially women - to swallow their pride and vote for the Democratic establishment candidate they dislike?
     
  23. NORML

    NORML Member+

    Aug 9, 2002
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    If there are any progressives who haven't had their feet in the starting block to vote Dem since Charlottesville, I don't know if there is anything that could reach them. Now women who may lean right most of the time, I could see some of them being put off by the scenario you suggested and willing to vote D.
     
  24. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

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    But I think the reaction to Charlottesville was more about Trump. This confirmation process - if it goes the way it appears it's going to go - will clearly be a stain not just on Trump, but even more on the Republican congress.
     
  25. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
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    I think it is the opposite. If she doesn't testify, and it looks like she won't, it looks like 11:59pm nothing burger. Feinstein should be embarrassed, but then she had a Chinese spy driving her around for 20 years, so probably nothing could embarrass her.
     

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