Rob Stone: US Manager shortlist is Ramos, Tata Martino, Marsch, Berhalter, Friedel, Osorio & Vermes.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by soonertony, May 5, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Is saying it is a pipe dream and unsustainable like when people used to say dual nationals would dry up? Listing a bunch of countries that havent been succesful doesnt negate the fact that Belgium did it and was probably the most talented and had the best performances across the tournament or that Croatia did it and got to the final or that the 9 French players were on the top 4 teams in Ligue 1... what percentage of the total minutes were from those 9 players? what is the percentage once you remove mbappe who is at one of the richest in the world.

    By 2026, I'd think that the majority of our players will be in top Euro leagues. Whatever MLS does should be completely separate. They should focused on youth development, coach development, and have at least three minor league teams if they arent going to have pro/rel.

    What is the basis for it only being short term? Brazil is a failure because Italy, Spain, Germany, and France have won the last four world cups? They have made the quarter finals in the last 7 cups, the semifinals 4 times, the finals 3 times, and won the whole thing twice.

    What is a bad for the Usmnt short term and long term is letting MLS hold it back and expecting MLS to become a top 5 caliber league. MLS looks to emulate the EPL more than any other league and it would be shame to get 20 years out to realize what FA did in recent years.
     
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    4 wins in 14 World Cup matches and 3 DNQ's (98,06,10) playing as Russia.
     
  3. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's entirely different for a country in Europe itself. That should be obvious. Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc. have no issues sending players to Top 5 leagues because there is no visa issues, no passport problems, no lack of scouts ready to travel a couple of hours to watch them, and the same corporations that own/finance big teams in top leagues also own many clubs in the smaller leagues.

    We're not in Europe, our situation is entirely different.
     
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  4. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    Our most recent American coach was a far bigger disaster.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Something I've been wondering for some time... Why do some posters have pics of Arena in their profile?
     
  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a good point. There are 28 countries in Europe who's players count as domestic in the top 5 leagues.

    France and Spain have rules favoring former colonies, you pretty much have to be a kid or a starting international to get a visa to play in England and Italy doesn't have much of a tradition of signing players from outside the EU or Africa.

    Only Germany has liberal visa requirements for US and Canadian players.
     
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  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    So it is a rule that doesnt apply to Europe, Brazil is still a consistent quarterfinalist, Argentina took Germany to extra time in 2014, Colombia went to PKs in the QFs without the key player injured and only 3 starters not in top leagues were at PSV/RiverPlate/Boca Juniors, and Uruguay made the semis in 2010 with only two players from their domestic league. It seems like something that only applies to lesser talented countries and the US/MLS.

    Seems fishy to me. Call me crazy, but top athletes in every sport want to play against the best. It ends up being the best for their careers and their wallets. Everything else just seems made up to support some cause.
     
  8. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    My point is this: the USA has the resources to actually have one of the top soccer leagues in the world. It only lacks the interest, and the participation by people who want to make a career out of the sport.

    We're in a better position than Russia or Brazil, economically, to create such a league. It's more likely, in my mind, that in 50 years we manage to have one of the best leagues in the world, that we manage to create a consistent pipeline of talent to Europe.

    At any rate, both processes depend on each other. The idea that anyone with some quality must leave for Europe is myopic: we need good quality players to stay too, to push the local league forward.

    So far our league is not even a Top 20 league in the world, there won't be a consistent flux of our players to top Euro leagues, to actually play in them. That should be obvious.
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Here is an idea.... Let's make this well known so kids can incorporate this knowledge to make the best decisions for themselves if they dont have a passport. Let's promote the Bundesliga in the US because of the opportunity it provides our players.
     
  10. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    Quite a few. The Japanese, for example, will never see any non-native-born head coach as someone who truly understands their culture. But that hasn't stopped them from turning to complete foreigners to lead their national team - with assistance of translators, as most of the world doesn't speak the language.

    In fact, much of the world's nations do not have the competency level among their domestic coaches for this to even be an option. For the majority of the globe, if they want to become competitive and contend for a World Cup berth, they'll need foreign expertise - and a permanent professional translator. That we are able to debate this at all puts us in a fortunate elite among the world.

    And I think you're misunderstanding - I'm not saying that American soccer culture is "made-up", in that it's imaginary or unreal. It is, however, abstract (as in, it doesn't physically exist). And it is "made-up", in that it's created. It's collectively created, by us, the community - same as the culture of any other group. That's what, in fact, makes it unique. And what makes it real - it's real because we made it. How we think about it and understand it and apply it - that's how it's made and that's how it becomes real.

    The disagreement between you and me isn't "Does America have a soccer culture or not?" - it's "How much does a head coach have to understand that culture in advance to succeed?" My belief is that if you bring in a head coach who's enthusiastic and dedicated to studying the lay of the land, to studying the infrastructure, to studying the player pool, to putting in his time and effort to figure it all out - then he'll be able to pick up the culture quickly and will succeed regardless of whether he's been part of the American soccer scene before.

    Conversely, if he's not dedicated and doesn't want to put in the time and effort, it doesn't matter if he's got prior experience or not. (See: Bruce Arena).
     
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rubbish! Absolute tosh!
     
  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Whether they were doped a little or a lot, home teams in the WC tend to over perform. However, the Russian league is underrated around here. It is the 6th best league as ranked by UEFA. Locomotiv Moscow was in Pot 1 of the recent draw. I don't know if an American has ever played in the league, It is not the friendliest place for non-Russians.
     
  13. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Can't we get a Dutchie or an Italian interested in our NT?

    If not those 2, I want a South American.

    I'm tired of MLS cronies giving the top job.
     
  14. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I count 5 Costa Ricans in Top 5 leagues (one of those teams was relegated though). They had maybe 2 in 2014. Although, they might have had 4 players at Champions League clubs in 2014.
     
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  15. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m done with foreigners and Americans, we should go for a Martian next time.
     
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  16. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Almeyda!
     
  17. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What exactly does any of the last few pages have to do with coaches?
     
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  18. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    That's totally non-sequitur. I never said that domestics should be favored.
     
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  19. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    You misread me. I actually agree with most of this.
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It has been a sad string of events. My take about what it has to do with coaches is the fundamental disagreement of what should be the makeup of the team and how the coach should approach the pool.

    I am a firm believer that the coach should select the best players that make the best team with a consideration for their potential to improve over the next couple years. I also believe our best players will be the driven ones who want challenge themselves against best players they can. I have no problem with the coach encouraging the players to do that, even publicly.

    I believe the majority of our top talent has gone abroad and they should be the foundation of the team. Steffen and Adams are easily in my starting XI today, but very much hope the rumors are true that they will soon be challenging themselves at a higher level. There are a handful of other high potential young players in MLS that we should begin exposing to the national team and integrating if/when they show they are ready.

    I really dont understand why this is controversial, but there are some that seem to disagree. There are those that will use any reason to take a shot at Klinsmann, others who think MLS players should get preferential treatment for whatever reason. Everybody knows Klinsmann wasnt a good in game coach and wasnt a great "tactician", but he did a much better job of player selection and looking for new talent. We know Arena tried to "fix" the locker room by basically eliminating one side of the supposed issue. Sarachan has been more subtle but has made an undeserving MLS player captain.

    Klinsmann was consistently bashed for calling up Wood because he wasnt playing in Germany's second division. The fact he had talent and potential didnt matter and could only be seen as a slight to MLS. It doesnt have to be the coach, but I'd sure like someone important in the Fed in touch with our young players abroad who are struggling to catch on in a big league.

    I think we will probably have the most talented and deep team we have ever had in 2022, but they will be young and inexperienced. All of this is why I want a better version of Klinsmann. Slightly better at the coaching side but more of a mentor to help these young guys build their careers before getting the best possible coach for 2026.

    I think Thierry Henry would be a good selection for this role. An amazing player with experience in multiple leagues and winner of the two biggest international competitions. He was a very competitive and smart player who has been coached by some of the best at the time. He recently assisted Belgium and was incredibly respected by the players. I'd add Berhalter as an assistant but think he might be better offfollowing the path that Marsch. I'd have Hugo Perez as an assistant if they arent going to give him one of the youth jobs.
     
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  21. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oops, sorry man, I guess I misinterpret your comment. However, I did like the $5 word!!
     
  22. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Part of the problem that I was referring to about the debate in here is a false dichotomy that tends to be advanced by some, where some people actually DO think that this is the debate that we are having (and worse, that some think we should be having). Except that it almost purely comes from the opposite side.

    Those posters are right in one aspect: that American soccer is still a bit of a fraternity, and those who have been a major part of it are protective of their own. They're quick to see the negative aspects of this, but it's not entirely negative. In any case, it's a circumstance that needs to be managed by leadership.

    We're currently lacking that leadership, and we have been for quite some time now.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I'd distinguish between "I pick the best players, most of whom have gone abroad" and "I pick primarily abroad players on the assumption the best went abroad." Assuming the conclusion, essentially.

    My particular dog in the fight would be entitlement. The one Hannover game I have seen Wood was a second half sub who was handed a sitter and fell over trying to execute it. He then goes straight into Sarachan's lineup. He looked no better for us. Ditto Jozy a couple years back at Sunderland. I think these players should move to the bench for the NT when this happens. A true club slump. A lazy club player may flip a switch. A struggling one usually doesn't. In either case the NT coach needs to watch the film and see that this pedigree player looks out of it.

    I also think that some of the Yanks abroad fanatics have a chicken/egg issue. If Pulisic was mediocre, would he be at Dortmund? Or would he be on Philly or even Reading. The argument is that going to a big club makes you better. But what if it instead recognizes you are already very good. Dortmund is not sending my Dynamo a transfer offer for Joe Willis and Jared Watts. This has implications for the pool. Maybe rather than the big clubs helping the country along, a chunk of what happens is it recognizes an upswing in development and talent for a period, with the symbols of the boom lured abroad. The better a job you are doing, the more in demand the players are. To then congratulate Dortmund for how good Pulisic is when he inks the deal, misses the point.

    For example, the 2002 generation, Landon went from Bradenton to Leverkusen. Others went abroad as well with a fair amount of success. Some came back and are more known for MLS.

    I also think that, conversely, a barren development period may look pro MLS, but that essentially reflects that our players are then less attractive, and the pool is down to baseline. I thought 2010-2018 was a down development ebb. I thought it got initially covered up by Bradley and then Klinsi aggressively recruiting dual nationals. OK, so the truly domestic Nagbe wasn't attractive enough abroad to go anywhere. But the numbers got fudged because for a period you could count Jones, AJ, FJ, Brooks, etc. Even though many of them never even thought "MLS." But you tear away that superficial layer and it was a barren pool and mostly MLS. Even the players who did go abroad like Zelalem and Hyndman have generally underwhelmed.

    So did the team suck for not going abroad, or was the real issue that for years there were few players with the talent those big clubs even wanted?
     
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  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What exactly are the positives of the soccer G O B?
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Hiring and their tactics. I think the trigger was the idea that the new coach should know the league and players and the American Way, whatever that may be. Some people think the players should be seeking bigger pastures and the coaches hired from abroad to change the nature of the team. And some think the coach should be like Klinsi pushing his players to go abroad.

    This gets into various issues of how US Soccer should be wired, whether the team needs to take a new stylistic approach, how should we play, whether coaches should be involved in players' career decisions, where should they promote, etc. When you're hiring the new coach is precisely the time to sort these issues.
     

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