2018 MLS Week 27 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by jdmahoney, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. jdmahoney

    jdmahoney Member

    Feb 28, 2017
    Plymouth, MN
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The assignments for Week 27 of the 2018 Major League Soccer season:

    08/29/2018

    D.C. United v Philadelphia Union
    Audi Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Nick Uranga
    4TH: Ted Unkel
    VAR: Mark Geiger

    New York Red Bulls v Houston Dynamo
    Red Bull Arena (8PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Eric Weisbrod
    AR2: CJ Morgante
    4TH: Alan Kelly
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez

    Portland Timbers v Toronto FC
    Providence Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Mike Rottersman
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Allen Chapman

    San Jose Earthquakes v FC Dallas
    Avaya Stadium (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Sorin Stoica
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Chris Wattam
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Drew Fischer

    09/01/2018

    Seattle Sounders v Sporting Kansas City
    CenturyLink Field (4PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Eduardo Mariscal
    AR2: Ian Anderson
    4TH: Alejandro Mariscal
    VAR: Dave Gantar

    Montreal Impact v New York Red Bulls
    Stade Saputo (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Ismail Elfath
    VAR: Jon Freemon

    New England Revolution v Portland Timbers
    Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Robert Sibiga

    Orlando City v Philadelphia Union
    Orlando City Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Christopher Penso
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz

    Columbus Crew v New York City
    MAPFRE Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Nick Uranga
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi

    FC Dallas v Houston Dynamo
    Toyota Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Daniel Radford
    VAR: Armando Villarreal

    Toronto FC v Los Angeles FC
    BMO Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Sorin Stoica
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr.

    Real Salt Lake v LA Galaxy
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: TJ Zablocki
    4TH: Marcos Deoliveira
    VAR: Geoff Gamble

    Vancouver Whitecaps v San Jose Earthquakes
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Mark Geiger
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Jeff Hosking
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic

    09/02/2018

    D.C. United v Atlanta United
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Joe Fletcher
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Chico Grajeda
    VAR: Robert Sibiga

    Both Ian Anderson and Alejandro Mariscal have an incredibly quick turnaround with a late game in San Jose followed by an early game in Seattle.
     
  2. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Anybody have an explanation why Chad Marshall was sent off via VAR in the Seattle-Sporting KC match? Announcers spent ten minutes looking at the replays and couldn't figure out why....
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yet also, exactly how—on paper—VAR is supposed to work. Watching MLS, Italy, Bundesliga and especially some Polish highlights, it’s clear the leagues are still treating VAR far differently than FIFA did. If VAR is here to stay and is going to be expanded, I really fear that a lot of effort over 20 years to uniformally apply the Laws is going to go out the window. When VARs get added in UEFA and EPL, things are going to get very strange.
     
  5. FootyPDX

    FootyPDX Member

    Portland Timbers
    England
    Nov 21, 2017
    In what world is that not SFP? What were the announcers complaining about? High, studs into the knee, nowhere nrantye ball.
     
  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think a lot of folks get caught up in the fact that Marshall is not a dirty player at all, but SFP doesn't have to be dirty. It just has to be excessive and dangerous.
     
  7. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    My memory of the US broadcast (I haven't gone back and checked) is that they didn't have this angle. The video they did show was much less clear. The tweet embedded below from the pool reported confirms that.



    More context, since I was at the game: about a minute after the red card was shown and as Marshall was walking off the field, they showed the same clip as was on the US broadcast (with some sort of VAR logo) three times at normal speed on the screen, where the Sounders defense was facing. They clearly saw it and that's when they blew up at Toledo. It's an interesting data point on the "should they show video in the stadium."
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  8. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    But it was neither excessive or dangerous in the context of the action....both players were going for the ball, their bodies were twisting (Marshall did a complete 360 in the course of the play) and Marshall actually gets a touch on the ball before making contact with the attackers leg. There was no intent at all.

    Basically Marshall was twisting around in the process of playing the ball and his foot accidentally came down on the attackers leg in the process of completing his step (his foot does have to come down somewhere after all). He had no clue where the attackers leg was at the time his foot was coming down.
     
  9. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First of all, Casey Keller knows less about officiating than most fans do, which is pretty mind-boggling in and of itself.

    Second, once again the fans screaming against this call have no clue what constitutes serious foul play. They think it's only called for intentional or blatantly ugly plays. This is as textbook of SFP as it gets. In no way do I think Chad Marshall is a dirty player. Physical and tough, you bet. Dirty, absolutely not. However, this is a send-off. There is simply no two ways about it.

    This is also EXACTLY why VAR is in use. In full speed, I get why Toledo didn't call it on the first look. VAR identified it as something that was clear and obvious, and the right call was made.
     
    jarbitro, JasonMa and Bradley Smith repped this.
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes and no.

    This is an incident that is covered under VAR protocols and, based on how everything was written, is exactly the type of scenario VAR is supposed to cover.

    But if you think FIFA wanted this to be red at the WC, you’re kidding yourself. There’s a bigger philosophical question about whether or not a challenge that barely anyone but referees think is a 100% red actually is “exactly why” VAR was implemented. VAR was implemented to catch the type of incidents that “no one” in football could abide being missed. People could abide this being missed in the past. FIFA can still abide this being “missed” at the WC. A lot of people could have abided this being missed yesterday.

    So there really is a question as to whether or not this is the type of play that VAR was meant to fix. On paper, yes. Conceptually, when the powers that be said “we need replay,” probably not.

    And because “clearly wrong” is so subjective and in the eye of the beholder, it’s going to be a long time before we all understand if VAR will operate as it is written or in a manner consistent with the reasons it was designed. There is a huge range between those extremes (and with room to grow, given the slippery slope principle) and we’ve already seen it when you juxtapose the WC against many of the domestic competitons that have implemented VAR.
     
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  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Atlanta fans upset about the DC penalty. They need to get over it.
     
  12. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was a stone cold penalty.
     
    sitruc repped this.
  13. orangefc

    orangefc New Member

    Atlanta United FC
    United States
    Jun 7, 2018
    I'm not upset, because it didn't impact the outcome of the game. I thought it was a penalty live but now I'm watching the angle at 4:15 on this video: https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/09/04/did-seattles-chad-marshall-deserve-his-red-card

    Do you definitely see contact there? I'm struggling to see any contact, but if there was contact it honestly looked like Arriola initiated it. But honestly it looked more like he dragged his foot (from the spray coming up) and tripped.

    I truly am not complaining about the call, so this is not rage or some kind of vague hope that getting someone to agree with me will make things all better... I just legitimately don't see it.

    EDIT: to say that I also don't think the video is strong enough to have overturned it on VAR, regardless of what I think I see. Not clear and obvious if you have to zoom in and go slow-motion, and STILL second guess yourself.
     
  14. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Sounders Chad Marshall situation continues:

    --Seattle Times has an interesting article about Toledo's interview with their pool reporter.



    --Sounders say they are challenging the card.

     
  15. FootyPDX

    FootyPDX Member

    Portland Timbers
    England
    Nov 21, 2017
    I didn't think it was a penalty and even with all the replays I'm failing to see where the contact was. The DC pitch seems really swampy in spots, where the ball hits those big wet spots and slows down. That's what looks to have happened here, the ball slows and the player tried to gain control while falling over.
     
  16. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dude, what?
     
    sitruc repped this.
  17. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Marshall card rescinded by Independent Panel:



    This is at least the second time that the IP has rescinded an RC that was sent to the field through VAR, yes? I remember a discussion of at least one other time here.
     
  18. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fifth time, fourth this year.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's just unbelievable the lengths MLS will go to in order to avoid punishing players. It was a red card tackle. Two qualified officials used video and said it was a red card tackle. If we're going to second-guess the second-guessing, why not just have the IRP sit at a centralized video booth in NYC and act as the VAR? Cut out the middle man.

    Meanwhile, in France, one of the best players in the world got 3-games for this because VC is VC and that's how it goes (worth noting the initial tackle got 5 games: 4 games for the challenge plus 1 game of a suspended sentence from last season activated) :
     
    JasonMa and RedStar91 repped this.
  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    T'would be nice if PRO would explain how its rep makes decisions as they seem so rarely in sync with what PRO seems to say otherwise. Yes, I know that is even less likely than MLS joining the rest of the world with automatic multi-game suspensions for VC/SFP . . .
     
  21. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure it was "Chad Marshall is a nice guy, he didn't mean to do it, red card rescinded".

    Sarcasm meter on, of course.
     
  22. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #23 RefIADad, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
    It's almost like MLS wants this controversy surrounding its officials to generate more social media activity and interest in the league.

    When I think of a call being reversed, I'm thinking something so obvious that even my parents (who admittedly don't know much about soccer at all) would be able to look at the play in question and say, "Yes, that was a mistake and needs to be reversed." In no way is this a situation like that. I don't care what the uninformed masses say - Chad Marshall committed serious foul play. I get what MassRef has said about only referees saying this is a 100% SFP event, but it's the referee's opinion that counts - not the fans. MLS had a great chance to publicly back one of its crews by not reversing this, and they screwed up big-time.

    If MLS and USSF want to understand why its officials continue to be blasted in the cesspool of social media, decisions like this are why. I'm not the biggest Toledo or Gantar fan, but they got this call stone-cold right. MLS once again looks weak and non-supportive of its officials by rescinding this card.
     
    socal lurker and GearRef repped this.
  23. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Really is remarkable. It seems like MLS' justification for rescinding these red cards basically boils down to "it was an accident and he didn't mean to do that."

    At a certain point, the rescinding of all these SFP cards will lead to even more appeals and you will eventually have to pretty much overturn every card that doesn't involve "intent."
     
  24. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I asked Paul Tenorio at The Athletic about the card being overturned, and he says the call on the field was a "bad call" (regardless of the fact that it went to video review) and that overturning the red was the correct decision.
     

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