World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    Your hatred for Messi clouds your good judgment. He says that if the World Cup was 16 teams, Messi would not have qualified, however in South Africa Argentina was among the top 8 and in Russia among the 16.

    Do not want to make excuses, Cruyff could not qualify for the 1970 World Cup or the EURO of 1968, 1972 or 1976.

    And please do not come with that in the EURO only classified 4 teams, the truth is that Cruyff could not take his team to those instances. Although sure you think that what the Dutchman did is more valuable than the 3 Copa America finals that Messi has, or am I wrong? Please do not be ridiculous man, do not go against the grain.

    If Messi was disappointing, then Cruyff 10 times more.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He qualified for euro 1976, while dumped in a qualification group with Italy and Poland at their peak (only one team progressed). Stalin, get at least your facts right.
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The Netherlands did qualify for the final stages of 1976 Euros mate:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_1976_qualifying_Group_5
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_1976_qualifying



    But I think the main thing is football is a team game, so it can't be seen like tennis/snooker/darts etc in terms of numbers of times making finals and suchlike.
     
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  4. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC

    OK sorry. Apparently Cruyff could not help his team to reach the final, a feat that Messi did 4 times

    Do not discuss the indisputable please, Cruyff is one of the 5 best players in history but it is not better than Messi. Neither at the club level nor in national teams


    And if Messi is a failure with Argentina, then Cruyff with Holland is even more so.
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    You seem to not grasp anything: you are a Messista, so there’s no point in continuing to address this discussion.

    One observation though: if you are going to discuss football at least get your facts straight.
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    The Argentinian teams that reached those finals were fragile mentally when the trophy was on the line or when confronted against a team on their level.

    I have personal information from someone inside the team after Copa America 2015 final that corroborated this: they were used to partying, blasting music in their camp, all cracking jokes in the bus towards the stadium, but suddenly before the final their attitude changed, they were all silent, nervous, tense. Messi, who was never a vocal leader, understood along with his clan that they had virtually lost the battle before it had even began.



    At NT level, one can’t expect anything positive with him anymore. The best of him has passed, his influence is toxic to the badge that is printed of two stars (2 WC’s) to that emblematic jersey. Besides, Qatar 2022 is so far away, he’d be nearly 36 years old. If he can’t run now on the pitch, imagine him in 4 years and a half, he'd be using a walker or cane....

    And frankly, when has he really made the difference in a major tournament ? We can’t expect him to influence tough games past his prime, if he couldn’t do it in his prime.
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't have a fundamental problem with your placement. After all, Cruyff himself indicated Pelé and Messi are the two best, if he's forced to make a call.
    My problem is the coherence of the reasoning, and I tried to formulate a polite question for you.

    Another problem is the lack of any context, and (as I said) how difficult the comparison is.

    It's ignored what for mess the national team was (arguably even greater than current Argentina) before he became 'dictator'. After he became 'dictator' they qualified for all three tournaments (the best four and best eight UEFA teams, mind).
    1970 and 1972 can't be 100% blamed on him when he's used in 40% of the qualifiers (in which he himself delivered, that's important here). He was already highly rated, and on merit he wouldn't have been omitted.

    Then there's also, indeed, that Messi doesn't qualify for 2010 and 2018 under the old set-up, and that not a single strong team was beaten. Makes it all so much easier when you get a fortunate path for many tournaments in a row.
     
  8. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Nils Liedholm's touches and actions vs. Soviet Union (1958 World Cup)

     
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  9. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Wim van Hanegem vs. Barcelona (1974-75 European Cup)

     
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  10. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC

    You yourself acknowledged that most people think like me, so we are all Messista and you are a target man? I do not think so.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Funnily, something to that effect was recently said by Vincent Kompany (the team captain ofc). He was reminded about a famous remark he said against a scathing football commentator when they were (again) not playing well. Kompany said then infamously: "Italy and Netherlands don't qualify and we are number one in the FIFA ranking". When queried again about that he said: "I think the norther you go they have a bigger mouth and like to invent the wheel again [...]. If I look at myself then I played the entire youth at Anderlecht and we merely followed what Cruijff had set out." (also alluded to in this recently discussed SI article) Or against a British source, to SkySports he said: "I don't think anyone has influenced the game as much as he has done - my own game too." His comments on differences in 'culture' are not totally baseless, looking at examples of research (for ex. long term orientation). So yeah, things can be seen in conventional and numerical terms, but for example 3 world titles and 1000 goals don't really capture what made Pelé uniquely gifted I'd say.
     
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  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    The problem with you is that you don’t grasp the understanding of context. What transpired 40 years ago has no bearing with current football. You also don’t evaluate the specifics surrounding current and past tournaments.

    To start with, Messi would have never been recognized in the old days since only Barcelona in this modern age took the responsibility to tender his medical issues at an early age.

    Secondly, in the old format, 2 out of 3 World Cups Messi would have been out and watching it on TV.

    Finally, you put too much stock on the finals reached, two of which were played one year after the other, and when realistically the teams they faced were very substandard. The fact they lost in all finals is more a taint in their résumé than an achievement. Their talented generation couldn’t muster any major win and for the old winners (real legends I may add) of Argentinian history, they would view them as chumps.
     
  13. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC

    All right, but Cruyff did not win anything with Holland and reached only one final, he could not qualify for the 1970 World Cup either. Do not be foolish and foolish man, you're darkened in mind.
     
  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And you are still thinking with the mind of someone behind the Iron Curtain, Mr. man of steel.

    And what does Cruyff have to do with Messi and Argentina football history ?

    Why don’t you ask yourself what merit Messi has in Argentinian football history that warrants any logic of placing him in the same category as the likes of Seoane, Vicente De La Mata, Puecelle, Moreno, Sastre, Pedernera, Mendez, Kempes, Maradona or Batistuta ?

    I even have some doubts if he should rank higher than someone like Claudio Caniggia.
     
  15. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC

    in a historical ranking would you place Seoane, De la Mata, Moreno, Sastre and Pedernera first than Messi? Rijkaard, Van Basten and Gullit were better than Cruyff?
     
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    At the NT team level without any doubt. They impacted decisive games when the title was on the line, they didn’t crumble under pressure, they marked a legacy that’s difficult to replicate.

    If the so called “4 fantastics” of Messi, Higuaín, Aguero and Di Maria, were so good as the marketing suggests, then the quadruple star power of Moreno, Sastre, Pedernera and Mendez, were from another galaxy.

    At NT level absolutely not. They failed at the WC level, while Cruyff had a memorable all-time great tournament in 1974.

    You have to understand something about objectivity and context: for example, Messi could be twice as talented as someone like Mario Kempes, but if the former can’t impact important games, and disappears as each phase progresses, while the latter could take decisive measures to secure victory in elimination rounds, then I have no other option to choose Kempes over Messi in my NT all-time selection.

    And before you go into a merry-go-round argument of ‘oh but he reached 4 finals’, I will remind you once again to take into account the context of events.

    Menotti and AFA did not give priority to the Copa America in the 1970s, all that mattered was the WC. Furthermore, Copa Americas have changed format over the years and expanded with lots of cannon fodder teams to make way for the lucrative business of enterprises. The pinnacle of this old tournament was probably at its peak prior to the 1950s.

    It’s true you may argue that Kempes was rather ordinary in 2 out of 3 World Cups, but all things considered, 16 team format in 1974, 1978 and 24 team championship in 1982 — with stronger opposition than anything Messi ever faced in all those competitions in my view — with his 1978 golden ball display, trumps anything Messi ever produced in a major event.

    So take your blindfolds off of your man-crush for Messi because frankly he still hasn’t done anything that warrants the same respect for the NT. Give the respect that’s really do for the others and not for underachievers that stole from the country.
     
  17. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I wanted to come back to this: he shouldn’t even be allowed to put on that jersey anymore (none of these chumps) because they don’t honor that jersey. None of those guys even returned back home after the WC was over. They don’t give a damn about Argentina, those petulant disgraced players.
     
  18. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    Then Messi who reached 4 finals is no better than Martino, Moreno and Kempes; but Cruyff who reached a final if it's better than Rijkaard, Van Basten and Gullit? What a contradiction, you have the mind filled with your hatred of Messi. By the way, you're talking about a fantastic Cruyff tournament
    but you forget about the other disappointing tournaments. With Messi the same, you emphasize the finals lost but you forget that in 3 of the 4 tournaments he was the best in Argentina. You he only manipulates data to draw his conclusions.

    And please do not come to me to say at national level, I'm asking you in a ranking general, but you will not pass your list because you are afraid of ridicule.

    My ranking is as follows:

    01. PELÉ (Brazil)
    02. LIONEL MESSI (Argentina)
    03. DIEGO MARADONA (Argentina)
    04. JOHAN CRUYFF (Holland)
    05. FERENC PUSKÁS (Hungary)
    06. FRANZ BECKENBAUER (Germany)
    07. CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal)
    08. MICHEL PLATINI (France)
    09. ZICO (Brazil)
    10. RONALDO (Brazil)

    As you can see, I consider Cruyff the fourth best player of all time. No
    I despise him, however you praise the Dutch and totally belittle the Argentine.
    You are subjective and arbitrary.
     
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  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    Stalin, why do you admire him ? He doesn’t give a damn about Argentina, he stole from them, took hostage the NT, disappeared and turned his back on the people. He’s a mercenary just like the rest of them.

    As for your list, it’s the same old typical political conformist list, without giving any profound reasoning behind it, just the same old usual suspects, where the majority you only witnessed on YouTube.
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And you forget who Argentina played, the majority of substandard competition. You also overlook how substandard he played in all those finals, also saved by Romero in penalty shoutouts in 2014 or 2015, outplayed even by his teammate Lavezzi in the first half of the final in 2014, but for some suspicious reason Sabella removed him by halftime, virtually doing Germany a favor.

    Why don’t you ask where was Messi in those important matches ? Do you really think he played well against the better sides ? Does he have a marquee game in a major tournament against a title contender ? Nope! And you have the nerve to compare him to Cruyff.., how dare you, blasphemous!!!
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    1º Pele
    2º Messi
    3º Maradona, Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruijff, Cristiano Ronaldo and Beckenbauer.

    IMO
     
  22. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    Why do not you pass your ranking? I'm not an admirer of Messi, in fact I was disappointed in the 4 finals but that's not why I'm going to stop analyzing objectively that what has been done in the national team has been very good, added to what he did in the clubs over the past 12 years. They are worth your consideration as one of the 3 greatest of all time. However, you are an extremist and a fan of Cruyff, because having a record below Messi you still consider it better. You do not think with your head but with your heart.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Once again, he played in only two qualifying matches and he was productive in both games. By that time he had already guided his club to the European Cup final, as pretty much the only international star of his team. So it is not (only) his fault that they didn't qualify. He has a three out of three record in the campaigns where he had a considerable input.

    Funny to say this with your avatar, like Thailand's love for Hitler.

    Even though it makes sense to have Pelé and Messi on top, I think time and again you're contradicting yourself and don't apply your own thoughts consistently. But when queried about this a personal attack was the reply.
     
  24. PMFmdf

    PMFmdf Member

    May 15, 2016
    It´s safe to say Maradona had a better NT career than Messi, his fans may calm down (and this is due to his performance in WC86 only. Apart of that , they are actually pretty close playing for their NT, but anyway...). The thing is: Messi is superior in club level, almost as great as a playmaker and vastly superior as a goalscorer. Should we forget about that? Messi deserves to be ranked ahead of Diego at this point imho. Probably he will remain as the second greatest ever after his retirement, only because team trophies still matter in people judgment and Pele had 2 WCs on his cabinet playing important roles for the team. Out of the 3 greatest ever, Pelé is the luckiest one, playing during the brazilian golden era, which helped him to achieve sucess in team and NT level at the same time. But of course he has the great merit of being regarded as undoubted the best player out of so many great brazilians that played in the 58-70 Era.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here for you the same simplistic and limited 4 vs 1 final logic applied to club level (the soundbite you keep on repeating):

    Cruijff 4 continental finals
    Maradona 1 continental final

    Cruijff 8 continental semi-finals (in many of them as only international star)
    Maradona 1 continental semi-finals

    Cruijff 10 league titles
    Maradona 2.5 league titles

    Cruijff 5 times runner-up
    Maradona 2 times runner-up


    This is a largely similar era, and don't start telling me club level didn't matter back then. Isn't born out of the all-time lists from that time, no matter the internet revisionism.
     
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