You have a photo of a player as disappointing as Messi does not? even worse because he failed to qualify for the 1970 World Cup and only reached one final in 1974, in counterpart the Argentine disputed 4 final instances. I do not want to think that it is more valuable to reach a final than 4, right? Following your reasoning, I could go even further and say that the majority of Dutch players (with the exception of those of EURO 1988) were disappointing. However, I think that Cruyff was a good player at the national level and Messi even more greater consistency and being the greatest historical goalscorer in Argentina. In fact, Dearman considers Messi among the 15 best players at the national level. history, after all there are few players who managed to play 4 finals. In addition, you have to measure the players equally, if Messi was disappointed to lose 4 finals, then Maradona was even more so in the 1982 World Cup. to expel against Brazil, in the America Cup of 1987 and 1989 where it was not at its usual level, in the final of the 1990 World Cup disappeared and in the Cup World Cup 1994 drugged and ruined the tour of Argentina in that competition.
First and foremost, Argentinian legends and their ranking has nothing to do with Dutch legends. As I’ve always sustained, Messi has no business in the pantheon of Argentinian NT greats. Messi has featured in many more major competitions than previous Argentinians and was surrounded by some of the best Argentinian talents of his generation. The fact of the matter is he’s come up very small for the expectations and hype that surround his fame. Argentinian football greats have generally always written their names in stone for the NT. They are associated with championships to their names and it was thanks to them that AFA’s trophy cabinet is glittered with silver and gold trophies. Seone, Sastre, Mendez, Pedernera, Moreno, Loustau, Pontoni, Mascio, Sivori, Kempes, Passarella, Fillol, Maradona, Ruggeri, Goycoechea, Caniggia, Batistuta... etc Argentina’s rich history of triumphs were thanks to these men and Messi was supposed to follow pursuit and build upon that legacy. Instead failures have ensued event after event. In an era that Argentina boasted the “4 fantastics” (Di Maria, Aguero, Messi and Higuaín) they succumbed under pressure and underachieved. They reached 3 consecutive finals and crumbled when they had the better individual players and in the case of the Copa Americas, they were the top favorites. But you and other apologists put too much stock in mentioning the 4 finals reached but gloss over several observations: 2007 was a stacked side with Riquelme navigating the ship but once they faced a real test the battle was lost. Even then they were favored to beat a B side of Brazil. Prior to that they hadn’t faced any real challenge. The 2015 and 2016 sides were again favored, never facing a significant threat and should have beaten Chile (a team that didn’t even qualify to the WC). Simply put, Argentina were in an ideal position to reach those finals because they didn’t confront really good sides. The majority being minnows. Teams that couldn’t even create real danger and failed to score. With Messi in 4 finals Argentina scored a total of 0 goals and 3 of those games went into overtime. He rarely put players in positions to score and he himself failed to put his chance away vs Germany in 2014. Never has a player reached 4 finals for the NT and not made an impact. El “Tucho” Méndez in three straight finals for Argentina in 1945, 46, 47 scored and Argentina won those championships. Batistuta in two CA finals in 1991 and 1993 scored and won those championships. De La Mata in the 1937 South American final scored twice to beat Brazil and crown Argentina champions. Antonio Sastre was three times champ in 1937, 1941 and 1947. Moreno and Pedernera were multiple champions as well as decisive artífices. Kempes scored a brace in 1978, Maradona set up the match winner in 1986. How is it possible that Messi couldn’t win at least 1 ? How is it possible he couldn’t be the difference maker ? Was Chile and Germany some monstrous teams that couldn’t be beaten ? No, they were overrated champions that relied on last minute goals or penalty kicks to triumph. Messi has the unfortunate record of losing in two straight finals to Chile. To Chile!!! A team that failed to qualify to the WC. A team that Argentina beat home and away in the qualifiers and 2-1 without Messi in the group stage of 2016. A country that is a political enemy to Argentina for aiding the Brits in the 1982 Falkland’s war. A country that has had territorial disputes with Argentina throughout history. This never occurred in Argentina and never with an iconic player representing the white and blue jersey. The greatest Argentinian players in history, Seoane, Puecelle, Sastre, Pedernera, Moreno, Di Stefano, Sivori, Kempes, Maradona, Batistuta, all were champions. All contributed decisively to deliver titles. Why is it impossible for Messi to join that club of champions ? The answer in my view is that he lacks strength of character when the pressure rises outside the comfort zone of his club Barcelona. I gave him the last benefit of the chance of redeeming himself in Russia, under his terms because he does what he wants, but if they failed the blame had to be highly put on him. He wanted that coach and he wanted the old guard in a last shot at a title. That’s what he got and his contribution was a disappointment. Dearman may have good intentions and I commend his work as he seems an indefatigable researcher but some of his conclusions tend to be bizarre or wrong and he overlooks the specifics of context that surround this player and others. In conclusion, he’s not off the hook anymore and his historical position, according to Dearman, is way too generous.
Standards have dropped, too many excuses have been given in order to exonerate a player that is universally untouchable. In the old days, performances like his and his interference along with his father calling the shots, would have been unacceptable. He would have been thrown under the bus with rotten tomatoes.
He only played in two of the six qualifying matches. Had goals and/or assists in both matches. Hard to compare very different contexts.
They are different criteria, for my Messi he did enough in football to be considered one of the best 3, on par with Maradona and a step below of Pele. Reaching 4 finals is still a positive fact, however you see it as something negative. I insist again, what is your assessment of Cruyff that only reached a final and lost it? Is Van Basten better for winning a EURO? I do not think so. Is Rivaldo better than Zico for winning World Cups and Americas Cups? From no way. Is Cristiano Ronaldo better than Messi for winning a EURO without playing the decisive game? It would be absurd to think that. However, I am Argentine and I understand better than anyone the frustration of not winning anything for 25 years. And of course losing those finals does not speak well of Messi, but not to consider it inferior to compatriots like Seoane, Peucelle, Moreno, Pedernera, Kempes, Batistuta, etc. I am an admirer of Dutch football, especially the generation of the 70's ... I have seen all the matches of the 1974 World Cup. Today, It is still the best selection I saw. Sometimes the best do not win. Greetings.
But that's not true. I've read enough 'X vs X' threads to know that people go out of their way to defend the greats of the past as well. I must have read essays worth of posts now explaining why Maradona's club career wasn't all that amazing, and why it doesn't discount him as a GOAT, for example.
That’s a new young generation view, a defeatist view by typical fans that weren’t alive or old enough to have seen the Kempes’s and Maradona’s arrival at the casa rosada with the cup in their hands. 1990 runner-up was celebrated too because it was a team that was not expected to reach the final and was done wrongly by the corrupt official, Edgardo Codesal, so that team was viewed more as national heroes that defended their title with honor. The CA that some so much cherish as merit of reaching the finals, is literally a tournament of 4 (Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and whomever is hot at that moment) the rest of the teams are cannon fodder. Even some teams just use it as a platform to prepare for the WC, as Menotti and Bilardo used to do. But in the Messi era Argentina took it seriously because they hadn’t won anything in over 20 years, but still failed. But today’s Argentinian fans are not from my generation, they celebrate quarterfinal exits, like in 2010. It’s become pathetic and really reached an all time low. Now it’s more about supporting a player but not the flag. I’m going to be very critical with Messi because he’s been the main cause of this debacle. He’s become toxic for the NT, he’s not a good teammate and as long as he’s associated with the Albiceleste, Argentina will continue to suffer in the hands of his dictatorship. Aided and influenced by his petulant and corrupt father, they stole millions of dollars from the Argentinian team and have cheated the fans. What legacy does he leave for the NT ? Positives: Argentina reached a WC final after 24 years. He’s the all-time leading scorer. Had a solid WC qualifying campaign for 2014; scored a hat-trick against an eliminated under-23 C Ecuadorean side to reach WC 2018 (dubious game btw). Controversial Golden Ball at WC 2014 and CA2015. Negatives: 4 final losses (a record for an iconic player); 8 managers were chewed up under his spell; never scored in a WC KO round; in 8 WC KO matches only made the difference in 1 vs Switzerland 2014. Had a disappointing WC qualifying campaign for 2010 and 2018 (bar a few games). Went scoreless at WC 2010 as the main pivot of an offensive oriented team. Had a very disappointing WC in Russia, one of the biggest flops in the competition and arguably in history. He charged to play for the NT hundreds of thousands of dollars just alone in friendlies in a concealed corrupt manner with the guidance of his corrupt father. Deprived Argentina of fielding different players at Russia 2018 because it suited him to stay with his old guard, negating any real opportunity at challenging Europe’s best sides. Was not a good teammate and controlled decisions over the manager, provoking the biggest internal chaos in Argentinian NT history. Once he had retired in 2016 to deflect the attention away from his shortcomings, and should have maintained his position, but greed and personal interests changed his decision, which ultimately only prolonged the impending failure that was looming ahead, at the expense of NT prestige. Finally, there’s virtually nothing that will be remembered in years to come because nothing new was written in stone for Argentina’s history. It was just another decade of defeats, frustrations, no memorable wins, nothing that left us nothing new to learn. It was just a dark chapter in Argentina’s history. Even under his command Argentina suffered some brutal beatdowns, humiliations, like a 6-1 defeat to Bolivia or their first ever loss to minnows Venezuela. The 4-0 loss to Germany in 2010 or 3-0 to Croatia in 2018 at the WC goes as one of the worst defeats in Argentina’s WC history, up there with the desaster of 1958 and 1974. That in his very first tournament he inspired his country to one of the most memorable sides to have never have won. He had his own dictatorship control over the team (some polemical accusations were made against him) but he played one of the finest championships we will ever witness. With Messi, there’s no comparison, he is not fit to clean Cruyff’s boots at the WC level. You think because he has the same silver medal that makes it equal ? Cruyff spearheaded the Dutch to the final, Sabella, the coach, masterminded their way to the Maracaná. Sabella understood after the group stage that he had to rely on his own convictions. Understanding that Messi was intermittent, that he faded in and out of games, diagrammed his team into a defensive fortress, hoping that on the counter attacks Messi in a flash of brilliance would decide close games, but as round progressed, Messi kept fading more into obscurity. By then Sabella heavily had to rely on penalty kicks. Zico is overrated just like Messi. You can read my stance on him here https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/gu...wards-1979-1986.2019142/page-10#post-35856893 He may not be better but neither is he worse. It’s blasphemous to mention his name alongside them. Those were true champions, men that earned their stars by decisively writing history for the NT. What has Messi accomplished that Argentina owe him ? What has he won ? Nothing, zilch, nada... He had his chances served on a silver platter but still crumbled.
I’m referring mostly to how people overlook Messi and his shortcomings and interferences in the downing of the NT. This would have never been allowed decades ago. He would have been severely criticized, instead the blame tends to always be put on others. Furthermore, his performances and impact in comparison to former legends were mediocre in the big picture throughout his NT career in major events. But his fans will overlook it and say he played well or he was mismanaged or the responsibility was on others. All lame excuses which wouldn’t have flied in previous decades.
Tell me a good reason why Cruijff is not of the Maradona class, without invalidating your own logic on Messi.
Now Cruyff is better than Messi? Please, if Messi was disappointing with his selection then Cruyff 10 times more. And you who know about the Argentine fan? Holland is eternal runner-up in almost everything. I would like to know your personal ranking of the best players in history, it would be very funny. Messi would put him in position 500 and Ardiles for winning the World Cup insurance is top ten. But Cruyff, still without winning anything and unable to qualify for the 1970 World Cup, is sure to top 5
What is your opinion of Higuain? He gets a lot of flak and is the primary target of the above phenomenon, being viewed as the teammate most responsible for Argentina's recent woes. Knowing the above btw, I had posted the below in Higuain's defence before the start of the 2018 WC. I acknowledge that it might be an exaggeration to make the below comparison, but I felt that the below still needed to be mentioned to provide some context.
Cruyff in one WC is greater than Messi in 4 World Cups combined. His performances against Sweden, Argentina and Brazil (several in KO rounds I may add) trumps any individual performance from Messi at the world stage in importance and strategic display. I know more about Argentina then you and Messi, and I’m more Argentinian than Messi himself, who is more Catalan at this point in his life than Argentinian. The only reason why he decided to play for Argentina in the first place over Spain is because his father thought he had a greater shot at winning before Spain ever did, but that backfired. Not the first time I’ve been asked this. But If I had to pick a list it would turn this forum upside down because I, unlike the majority, am not a conformist, I don’t swim with the tide, I challenge views and question what is politically correct. But you seem not to grasp my message: we are not speaking about common players here, we are speaking about historical figures and where they belong in the top hierarchy. Messi is inflated because of what he accomplished in Spain, at a club where they can buy the best players to beat up on the little minnows. Truth be told, at the NT level you can’t buy talent so everything balances itself out, it’s where you can see really how competent he is, and his true blemishes have come to light, which are concealed at Cataluña. As for Cruyff, he had the ability to make others around him better, wherever he went, whereas at Barcelona Messi has been surrounded by others that made him better. It’s the reason why he’ll never leave that club because his chances of failing somewhere else is greater than leaving the club that gave him everything. He was conveniently used as a scapegoat. People talk about his misses in the final but overlook the incredible botched shots of Messi in the Maracaná or the penalty shot to the sky in New York/Jersey, or how anemic his displays were to break through defenses. In general, always the blame is beyond him just because his name is Messi. And this is why I speak about the injustices and how the standards have dropped. Messi is the main guy, so as the star of the team, he calls the shots, has control of the actions on and off the field, so it all comes down to him. For example, back in 1986 Platini was the main guy for France, the joint top player in the world, he did not perform to his standards and when he arrived back home he was severely criticized and used as the goat (as in scapegoat). Messi as the captain didn’t even return to Argentina or speak after their defeat, instead he disappeared and still gets away with it. There is a word in South America that applies for the people in Argentina that defend him: cornudos! This wouldn’t fly in the past, instead the blame is on the manager or others. Pathetic.
So Cruyff, playing a single final and not qualifying for a World Cup, is more than Messi who played 4 finals and is the historic top scorer? Often oxymoron. Please do not be ignorant, put your list of the best in history to laugh a while. You do not know the feeling of the Argentine fan or what he thinks, you're just a boastful. Luckily, people like you are only a minority.
Messi would still definitely play in another Copa though, and possibly one more World Cup after that. It is possible that he wins something with Argentina in those tournaments while playing a significant role (if not that of the primary protagonist). If the above comes to pass, one way to look at these past failures would be to consider that his coaches did not utilize his teammates properly, imagining that making his teammates play in a restricted fashion would be the best way to maximize Messi's output. An approach that might have been wrong. How would you see it though, in that hypothetical case? Also, when Messi retired in 2016, I had compared his NT career to that of Riquelme. See below - https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/how-do-you-rank-messis-nt-career.2033146/#post-34254962 Am not sure if that comparison still holds, but remembering it made me wonder whom you see as having had a comparable NT career. Harsh. But I guess it shows that a section of football fans in Argentina are tired of this mollycoddling.
When people can’t debate they resort to insults, which is typical in the current society of Argentinian people, filled with corrupt politicians that run AFA and the government. You mention Cruyff, but as usual deviate from the context of events: The Netherlands is not Argentina, it’s a small country that has had little influence in FIFA, unlike Argentina that had Grondona, one of the biggest crooks along with the rest of his goons. And who cares if Messi is the top scorer ? Mostly accomplished in insignificant matches against minnows, when he had to put the ball in the net in high profile matches, he’s shrunk. Continue to defend the Catalan man, who stole from the NT millions, continue to defend a man that sabotaged and took prisoner the NT, to suit his own interests at the expense of properly building a solid young balanced team. Yes, it’s unfortunate, that’s why our society is as backward as it is.
Messi is at fault because he calls the shots for nearly a decade. The managers have only been approved with his consent, and in this past WC the manager had no control because him and hIs goons seized control and did what they wanted. It’s hard to compare Messi to anyone in Argentinian NT history. No one has been given as much leeway and control as him, which he never earned btw. He’s no Moreno or Pedernera let alone Maradona. Bottom line: no player in Argentinian NT history had as many chances served on a silver platter as Messi: more chances to triumph than anyone, more privileges than anyone, but still never got the job done because he’s not as good as some make him out to be. You take him out of the confines of his comfort zone in Barcelona and he becomes just as normal as any other player around.
You have mentioned this twice now, suggesting that the Argentina NT Messi is his true self. How would you rate Messi historically on the basis of what you perceive to be this "true self" of his? Assuming it was carried across to his club performances as well (considering that the platform provided to him at Barcelona, was not made available to him from the get-go, as it has happened in case of most football players historically).
No one is insulting you please do not victimize and speak like men. That Holland it is not Argentina that is clear, the Netherlands still lacks a lot. I find it funny when he says that Argentina was champion thanks to Grondona, Holland at the EURO 1988 won because they played good football, no insurance? When Holland wins is because he played well and when Argentina wins is because the AFA is corrupt? Debate with more solid arguments. I do not defend Messi, I only say that he did more than Cruyff at the national level. And if it's a failed, then Cruyff is 10 times more since he played only one final and did not qualify to the 1970 World Cup. Please pass me your list of the greatest in history so we laughed, surely Messi, Zico and Eusebio occupy the 500 spot for not winning the World Cup. But Cruyff surely it is the first or second despite their failures at the selection level.
As mentioned before: an overrated player. A guy with many contrasts. A guy that we could only properly measure outside the confines at club when he played for the NT. And with the exception of sporadic brilliant moments, he never truly fulfilled the hype surrounding his name with the Albiceleste. The Stalin member here, boasts about his goals for Argentina, but am I supposed to be impressed with the chunk of those goals coming in meaningless matches or in dubious games against the likes of Guatemala, Haiti, Panama, Algeria, Ecuador C side, Hongkong, Paraguay, Bolivia, Albania or an under-23 Brazil side, etc... ? None of his goals have had an historic importance, and how dare he be compared to other Argentinian legends that played far lesser games but whose goals and contributions delivered championships... In many ways he’s the Zico of Argentina, but with full hands on the ship. Technically speaking, he has limitations: weak in the aerial game and never was strong on his weaker foot. Being that he’s a specialist in the category of dribbling and ball handling, he never did evolve into a total footballer. It’s the old controversial argument : specialist vs complete total footballer. His technique is based on simplicity: velocity and excellent control and touch. But he’s not a virtuoso like Moreno, Pedernera, Baez, Maradona or Ronaldinho, he’s more direct, vertical and parallel in his game. He lacks variation at times and walks the pitch more than any other superstar I’ve seen, rendering his services obsolete at times for the NT. He’s mostly a 1/4th of the pitch player, push him to his weak spots and he’s controllable. Man-mark him, especially with a small quick or savy guy ala Agidio Arévalo Ríos, Schweinsteiger or a Kanté, and he’s got little chance to influence a game. He doesn’t demand the ball or go get it like great players used to do but prefers to have it served to him. In complicated games this backfires and he gets lost. He rarely works hard for the team, his stamina and activity level is weak. He’s more suited for the element of surprise, by catching his opponents off guard in counter attacks as his remarkable close control with his low center of gravity make it very difficult for defenders to stop him on the run with space. In short distances, he’s very quick but the longer the run he runs out of steam. He’s not a good leader within the team. He only feels comfortable with his clan, at the expense of forming what’s the best hand of cards at the moment. He’s like a dictator, but without earned merits for Argentina. AFA play along with his capricious demands because he’s box office and both corrupt sides win. But for Argentina and its real fans that spend lots of money it’s a toxic situation.
Again, you are undermining the contexts of events. The only reason Messi could even feature in Russia or South Africa is because FIFA expanded from 16 teams to 32 and because of some favorable decisions that swayed their way. Those two qualifying campaigns were disastrous for Argentina, without the expansion he would have viewed the WC on television.
Oh man, this whole time I blamed Argentina's best chance of winning a World Cup in 2010 on Maradona not picking the treble-winning Cambiasso and Zanetti and the double-winning and Ligue 1 top-assist-maker Lucho Gonzalez, opting instead for the likes of Veron and Jonas, and Maradona's clear-as-day tactical incompetence, when really, 22 year old Messi was behind the debacle this whole time!!!
That's a very strongly worded summary, but I can certainly understand where you are coming from. His issues pertaining to mental fortitude, which you had highlighted earlier, especially those in knockout games also seem to carry over to his club performances btw, seeing as how his CL knockout round goal output is markedly lower than his CL group stage goal output. And also considering that at this point in time, he has lost both the one-off finals that he has played for his club team against their main rivals, while having a 3-3 record in the two-legged knockout/final affairs (albeit all 3 wins coming by 2012 when he had a much better support cast, with the 3 losses following since). One important thing though, that I touched upon above as well, is that Messi is still writing his story and thus probably has still more opportunities to change the script at both NT and club level. For me, this hits the nail on the head. The way I see it, with more favorable circumstances in terms of international visibility and powerhouse European club opportunities alongside the right support cast at the beginning of his senior playing career, Zico would have gone on to have a similarly lofty standing, instead of the way he is currently considered, in popular football culture. Thus, looking at it conversely, Messi could be considered to be at around Zico's level.