PBP Thread: Germany vs Sweden, 23 June 2018

For fouling a player who had no defenders between him and the goalie. Aka the "last man" foul. Red cards are given for that offence.

 

No, not if its a penalty. Its a red and free kick, if it's outside the box, a yellow and penalty if inside.

 

You yourself said you would have given the PK earlier on in this thread.

Yet you talk about others credibility.

 

There is no such law mentioned in the laws. Try again

(And with two defenders right there, no way would dogso ever be given)

 

Not for any “push” I wouldn’t. Boateng’s brushing against the leg you’d have a case. This business of hallucinations of pushes and not trying to play the ball is pure nonsense

 

Lolwut?

 

Please read:
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-softening-rules-on-fouls-in-the-penalty-area

The avoidance of the triple penalty when we are not talking about SFP, VC, deliberate handball, etc.

 

Guys, let's get this right. Straight from IFAB:

Q10: Is every DOGSO offence in the penalty area now only a caution (YC)?
NO – the Law has only changed for those DOGSO offences in the penalty area where the offender makes an attempt to play the ball or challenge an opponent for the ball. The sending-off (RC) remains for:
· handball
· holding, pulling and pushing (as these offences are not an attempt to play the ball)
· making no attempt to play the ball e.g. a deliberate trip
· an offence when there was no chance/possibility of the ball being played​

 

Very cool read. Thanks for sending that my way.

 

One defender was slightly ahead of the other defender. Therefore technically a red card

 

Besides reading us the rules, your final point is what??

 

Technically nothing iof the sort. “Slightly ahead” only counts for offside really

The violation is “denial of obvious goal scoring opportunity”. The law doesn’t say “any foul by the least defender must be a red.” It is a judgment call as to what is obvious. The US advice to referees talks of four balancing factors one of which is if there is more than one defender is between the player and the goal then it can’t be dogso, but that doesn’t mean that any foul by the last defender must be a DOGSO. The IFAB interpretations look to the location and number of defenders for DOGSO

Here, one strongly mitigating factor here is that there is another defender right on top of them. So, it isn’t like a breakaway with a defender totally trailing but rather a situation where a single touch would result in both defenders being tight on top of him


This last defender nonsense is one of the very common misunderstandings of how the laws are applied that leads to this kind of silly discussion.

 

Well you are certainly holding up national stereotypes. Brilliantly.
The key is let's get it right. Those arguing it must be a red and those arguing it can only be a yellow are both incorrect. If you want to argue about the game, you should start by actually knowing the rules.

 

In basketball if you get touched its a foul, but it wasn't as if Berg was touched and he suddenly fell. Boateng stuck a leg out that came nowhere near to winning the ball. He doesn't even attempt to play the ball. He was trying to put pressure on Berg to limit his angle, but Boateng made a mess of it and tripped him up. And then Berg crashed into the ball. He didn't get a proper shot off.

The referee saw what he thought constituted a shot and assumed fair play, but if the play were properly reviewed then a penalty would have been awareded. The play never came under review with VAR, they simply signaled play to continue based on what they saw in live action.

 

Can we first agree that it was a foul? From what I saw, Boateng didn't play the ball and he impeded the play. He was behind the attacked and he couldn't do anything other than pressure him or foul him. The key points to consider are 1) Boateng makes no contact with the ball, 2) Boateng makes clear contact with Berg's leg, and 3) Berg has a loss of balance and then crashes into the ball. These considerations are clear cut if we one reviews the play. So in my book it was a foul.

There is also justification for a card. Boateng's challenge was not sportsmanlike since he made no proper attempt to play the ball and his only intent was to prevent what may have been a good opportunity for Sweden. I think it would have been a red had Berg been on a clean break away or had there been an otherwise empty goal. I think Berg's angle against Neuer was too tight for it to constitute a clear scoring chance and a number of defender were only half a step behind the play.

 

I don't know where you came to your conclusion on how VAR works, but this is what I'm basing my understanding of this system (from the Guardian):

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ssistant-referees-everything-you-need-to-know

To be clear, the referee chooses whether to apply VAR and in this case he chose not to. The VAR officials can at most ask the referee to review it and that's only done when there's an error they themselves catch based on what they had seen in the live run action of the play. The VAR officials don't actually review the play unless authorized by the referee. So they only get to see what happened in a split-second.

My guess is that the VAR officials and referee probably thought Boateng put pressure on Berg and that Berg got a shot off. Anyone who reviews the play will actually see that Boateng fouled Berg and that Berg crashed into the ball. This is very evident upon review.

I also have my suspicions that they wanted to look the other way where they could get away with it to the benefit of Germany. They didn't fix the game for Germany, but on plays like this we could see they would give Germany the benefit of the doubt. The key consideration here is that the referee made a decision not to review the play when he could have. I see no harm done other than a wasted minute or two at worst in what, at the time, seemed like a very pivotal moment in the game.

To the second point, Boateng didn't get near to the ball. In fact he couldn't without fouling Berg. From his angle he could only hope to put pressure on Berg--the idea being to limit Berg's angle at the goal. Berg's body expertly protected the ball. So Boateng tried to put pressure on Berg to cut his angle down, but instead he came in too fast and too heavy and he tripped Berg up. The key here is that Boateng is behind Berg. He was half-a-step behind him and Berg positions himself between Boateng and the ball. Boateng played the man, not the ball. That's why he stuck his leg out, to control Berg's angle and make it tighter. It's very difficult defensive play and Boateng got it all wrong.

And it's arguably a red, although I think that would be a very harsh red. It really depends on how one defines Boateng's foul, which is somewhat open to interpretation. I don't share the sentiment that it's a red. I think Boateng tried putting Berg under pressure, but fouled him on what was a tight head-to-head with a very strong keeper with defenders within distance, not exactly a very clear-cut scoring chance. And as zahzah pointed out, the rules are now designed not to punish teams/players with reds in instances along these lines. So it's a yellow at most in my book and I think almost any other referee's book if the play is properly reviewed.

 

Interesting. That differs from FIFA's explanation, as I read it, and what the discussion on the referee boards are. however, I'm very hesitant to conclude that The Guardian would get such a thing wrong.

https://football-technology.fifa.com/en/innovations/var-at-the-world-cup/

Keep in mind that what constitutes a foul is a matter of judgment as to what constitutes excessive force (not forholding, as others have pointed out, but for pushing and tripping). So, some contact is allowable before it's forceful enough to constitute a foul. My understanding is thar Marciniak often has a high bar for fouls.

Getting his shot off would only be relevant in evaluation of advantage, and this wouldn't be an advantage (a save) relative to the PK, so I don't think that entered into the analysis at all.

The key is that the VAR didn't see it as rising to clear and obvious error which is the standard. Both Marciniak and Turpin (the head VAR) didn't see it as clear an obvious error. I actually also don't see it as clear an obvious error.

The point that you and everyone else seems to miss is that pressuring the shooter is perfectly legitimate. Pressuring the shooter to close space is done all the time, and it would be an incredibly different sport (i.e., Basketball) if that were not the standard. I disagree that he couldn't have gotten the ball. He got within inches in fact. Had Berg's touch been even slightly to his right, it would have been stopped by Boateng. Boateng is in essence protecting that space in front of them both that he can reach. This, he is allowed to do.

The question is whether that pressure is done with excessive force. simply making contact leg to leg often is not enough to constitute a foul. People need to take off their partisan beer goggles here.

On what basis? This is the part I find most telling of people who don't really understand the rules. Anyone who says it's 100% red is smoking crack.

Is it serious foul play? Not on your life.
Is it DOGSO? As I noted above, not with the second defender right on top of him, I dont think so.

zahzah's post has to do with inadvertent DOGSO, which according to you isn't the case here.


Long story short, this is a relatively close call, and that means NO VAR comes into play.

Also, I'm sick to the teeth of ignoramuses screaming "ZOMG IT's 100% A PK@!!@!!!!!1!!!"

Get a grip and learn to analyze.

 

I've asked someone on the referee board to clarify it.

I agree that there are certain levels of physical play that can be applied. In this case, I think the referee would have decided that not enough was applied to warrant a foul in part because it appeared Berg was able to get his shot off, at least at first glance. I think upon video review, anyone could clearly see that that Boateng played the man, not the ball, that he made clear contact with Berg, and that Berg then fell into the ball. That's a foul and I very little room to interpret it otherwise. And because the referee chose not to review it, the VAR officials didn't go beyond whatever they saw in the live action of the play on their monitors. The play continued and didn't stop until later. I didn't see the referee ask for any delay of a review. So the referee held the discretion to review the play more thoroughly and he elected not to.

I never claimed it was a serious foul nor did I claim it was a red. It was at best arguably a red and I look at it from this understanding:

If the net were empty or if Berg was on a clean break away with Neuer almost helpless,and if then Boateng makes that same challenge he had made against Berg, then I'd say that it could be worthy of a sending off. It would not be right to Sweden to have to take a penalty, which might not go in, when Boateng can simply foul the player and force a PK on really great chance where Berg had a very high probability of scoring. Boateng would be committing the same type of foul, but Berg in this instance would have had a much clearer chance of scoring. I believe there has to be a detriment to defenders so that they make a proper attempt to play the ball. They need to know they can't commit a foul that appears soft in hopes of stopping an all-but-certain goal because a penalty will better their odds of defending the goal.

In my view, because it wasn't a clear-cut goal-scoring chance, this foul is no more than a yellow. However, the referee might not have necessarily known that prior to the review. I think the fact the referee didn't review it in full meant that it never had to be question for him.

It's important to remember that this was a pivotal moment that could possibly have seen Sweden awarded a penalty and Germany dismissed a man. I'm not saying that's how the play would have been understood in the end, but the referee didn't take that chance at having to make that decision because he refused VAR and VAR didn't advise otherwise. He didn't run the risk of having to make that call.

It was also a moment that could have led to Sweden's first goal of a possible two since they did score on a later chance. German won 2-1, but if Sweden had scored two goals, this game may have ended in a draw or differently in any case.

 

Nice analysis

If my understanding is correct (which it might not be). The sequence is, a close call is made, VAR reviews, and if it isn’t obviously wrong, they don’t flag it and play goes on with the refs assuming that there wasn’t an obvious error

I don’t think refs are going to be stopping on their own volition but rather wait for the VAR to act if the call isn’t defensible
I’ll be interested to hear what the refs board says. It’s new tech and procedures and it’s going to be good to have a few people around who gets it because a lot of commentators don’t I think.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion here and as a German I will readily concede that Germany was very lucky with Berg goal scoring opportunity. At the same time, as a HSV follower I can attest to the fact that Markus Berg running with the ball alone in front of the goalie is anything but a clear goal-scoring opportunity (most expensive purchase in club history -> five goals in four years and 54 games).

Since we're not talking about the penalty anymore, I wanted to raise one other point: How is it that Toivonen's goal being a handball was not even discussed? When you look at the video you can clearly see that he uses his chest to catch the ball, but then it very much looks like he uses his left upper arm and perhaps his forearm to guide the ball down in front of his foot.

It looks like it in both shots here, but I'll admit to be sure it would be good to see it directly from the front.

 

ROTFL. Never in a million years is that a handball.

 

Do you remember the outrageous calls that went in their favour? They should never have gotten that far.

 

They should have made the 1/4 final though.

 

The calls for S Korea against Italy were highly questionable questionable but the calls against Spain were absolute blatant FIFA corruption.