PBP Match Thread: Argentina vs Croatia, 21 June 2018 [R]

Discussion in 'GROUP D: Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria' started by bigsoccertst1, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Sure, all players have ups and downs, injury and all... but we see a Ronaldo who does have these special moments with his national team, and did win a major FIFA tournament (the Euro) with them, while Messi won zero, nothing, zip, nada with Argentina (and the supporting cast in Portugal was much humbler than the one Argentina put at Messi's disposition over the years). We've seen Cristiano Ronaldo with stamina, energy, pride, leadership... and we've seen Messi choking over and over, when it mattered. Ronaldo is a winner. Messi is a loser, who got promoted to winner because a fine team (Barcelona) was built around his autistic and awkward self.

    Sorry if I come across too hard on Messi... but it's because I've felt irritated over the years by people, often very young and not having had the opportunity to see upfront many other great players, touting this idea of Messi as the GOAT. That's a travesty. He is anything but the GOAT. Like I said, even in his own generation, he isn't even the best (Cristiano Ronaldo with his athleticism and resilience is way more of a winner), much less the Greatest of All Time.

    So this claim irritates me, rubs me the wrong way, so I like to disprove it, sometimes with some strong words.

    What is the image forever associated with CR7? His celebrations, punching the air, screaming, the ultimate alpha male athlete.

    What is the image forever associated with Messi? The head down, humbled, frustrated... it's not for nothing that his nickname was The Flea.
     
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  2. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Felt bad for Maradona.
     
  3. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Well, at least Maradona is suffering as a fan, but as an athlete during his time he got to enjoy great success with Argentina, unlike Messi.
     
  4. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    I don't think so. Before the Cup started, one of my first posts when I came back to BigSoccer after a long absence, was: "I'll make a bold prediction: Argentina will not survive the group phase."
     
  5. Chop thug

    Chop thug Red Card

    Toronto FC / Santa Clara / benfica
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Greatest post in the history of big soccer
     
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  6. SaratogaGooner

    Nov 23, 2009
    Clifton Park NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Messi will retire under the incredible pressure placed on him after this WC. I think he is completely tired of the weight of the soccer world on his shoulders. The guy can't touch the ball without the world screaming "Messi is god". Think about that scrutiny. I'd retire and go ride on a yacht somewhere also.
     
  7. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's already retired from international soccer at least once. He been getting *** from Argentinians his whole career, and I can see why he has a hard time bringing his top gear for a country that seems to hate him.
     
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  8. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Which is why he should’ve chosen Spain over Argentina.
     
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  9. Joao Bibliotecario

    Jun 24, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Why does Messi's PR firm let him do goat pics? Barca won La Liga, people think RM only tried for the CL under Zidane.

    A WC final lost in extra time and three continental finals lost, well that is the perfect setup for talk. To fans he went there. To haters he went there but didn't finish.
     
  10. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    You are reversing the cause and effect. It is thanks to *his* failures when he plays for the National Team, that Argentine fans hate him.

    Do you really think they'd be hating him if he hadn't choked *multiple times* and had won one, two, three, four trophies for the team?

    Do Brazilians hate Pele? No. He won three World Cups with the National Team. Not one. Not two. Three. He is actually the only human being on the planet who has won three FIFA World Cups.

    Why in the hell would Argentinians love Messi? He won strictly nothing for them.

    He moved to Spain and won some club championships with a foreign club. That's it.

    Argentinians have ZERO reasons to love Messi.
     
  11. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Of course the "but didn't finish" is the important part. Placing second is only good if your mentality is that of a loser. Winners win. Losers place second.
     
  12. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Well, Spain won the WC once. Argentina won it twice.
    That irritating Tiki-Taka isn't God's Gift to Football.

    Spain had a good stretch with a golden generation that is getting old. They won the Cup once, and a couple of Euros.

    Brazil won the Cup five times. Germany won it four times. Italy won it four times.

    Poor Spain. They think they are something special. Well, they aren't.
     
  13. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Reminds me of this quote from Sir Alex Ferguson. Now mind you, Ferguson may be biased because he coached Ronaldo and may want to take credit for some of the greatness. But the way he puts it does make you think.

    "Ronaldo could play for Millwall, Doncaster Rovers, or anyone and score a hat trick in the game. I'm not sure Messi could do it. Messi is a Barcelona player."

     
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  14. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Exactly! And no, it's not because Sir Alex is biased. It's because he knows what he is saying.

    Messi with Barcelona = great.

    Messi without Barcelona = mediocre.

    So who is the great ingredient here? Easy. It's Barcelona. Not Messi.
     
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  15. Joao Bibliotecario

    Jun 24, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Wow, what a colossal insult!
     
  16. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Modric and Rakitic superb both in attack and defense. Croatia did a great job of denying Messi the ball. Lovren once again excellent apart from the one miscommunication between him and Subasic. On the next round for the first time since 1998.
     
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  17. cromagnum

    cromagnum Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Modric Rakitic Brozovic Kovacic Badelj. That's as about good as it gets with midfielders.
     
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  18. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    He was getting crap from Agentinians long before the 2014 world cup or the Copa Americas. He's been getting guff for going to Barca instead of staying in Argentina since he was a teenager.
     
  19. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Well, he picked his path, got successful at club level, got rich (did get involved in fraud)... but did NOTHING for Argentina so I can understand that they aren't very fond of him, there.

    I'm not fond of Diego Costa, either.
     
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  20. DerMongerer

    DerMongerer Member

    Jun 5, 2004
    They actually had someone better than either of those guys in the penalty box...the leading scorer in serie A whose goals fired Inter back into the CL.

    Instead they relied on long time choker Higuain and barely fit Aguero who hasn't ever scored even 1 goal vs any NT of worth in either a WC or even a Copa America.

    Politics. Somewhere Icardi must be having a field day.
     
  21. Joao Bibliotecario

    Jun 24, 2014
    Brooklyn, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Who is it who are Messi superfans? That is telling. When you meet someone who loves Messi, what do they know, what are they like?
     
  22. tudobem62014

    tudobem62014 Member+

    Feb 26, 2014
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Anyone wonder who was on maradona’s fan ID lol
     
  23. tudobem62014

    tudobem62014 Member+

    Feb 26, 2014
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    They’re different players. Both very good players. I would say people should stop comparing Cristiano to Messi. Their jobs are completely different. Their bodies are completely different. To be honest Messi has done more with less. To defend Messi, Cristiano didn’t even play in the final in the Euro and he also disappears in Champions league finals ... well until he gets the pk and rips off his shirt lol.

    Messi is on a bad team without another playmaker and wings which allows teams to double even triple team him. He has no one to take the heat off him and his supporting cast is old... mascherano vs William Cavalho.

    Sometimes at the end of a career your team is good and you get to retire in glory in the sunset. Messi does not have that. Who are the two best midfielders right now? Kroos and Modric. On who’s team... iniesta is retiring... Barcelona’s golden age is over. While Madrid had a surplus of players. Barcelona started the season without Neymar and still topped the league. Tbh the best player on Real Madrid is Modric. But he doesn’t score so he doesn’t get balon dor’s just like iniesta didn’t. So they give it to Cristiano. Real Madrid did not start winning the champions league until the Modric transfer and until Ancelotti started putting in Modric more in the starting lineup. His skill was clear in Euro 2012.

    Cristiano benefits because his best weapons are usable from set plays... pks, corners, and free kicks. Messi’s best weapons are from open play... the dribble, the pass. Messi doesn’t have as much power on the pk, fk and can’t leap above people on headers... that’s not his game. Cristiano barely scores free kicks anymore.

    He can’t help that his country men are out of form. Can he really do anything about Caballero’s blunder that changed the momentum of the game. Just like Ronaldo couldn’t do anything about Pepe head butting Muller. 3 international finals in a row is enough. Total 4? Ronaldo has two? Group D is the most competitive group. Iceland had beaten England, topped Croatia in the qualifiers. Ronaldo couldn’t get to r16 in 2014.

    People who say Messi disappears show a lack of understanding of football. Of course he disappears they isolate him ... which means the rest of his team should be able to exploit the space that he opens up from all the defenders positioning/ focusing themselves on him.

    They both pout when they lose. It’s just in recent memory it’s more Messi cause the best players on his team have aged out. I still say he is doing more with less at both club and country. Real Madrid has a surplus of talent cause they are in the capital and have better funding thus Cristiano gets to rest more and is thus more fresh at this point of the year.

    They’re both great players. Their greatness goes up and down with their current situation.

    Ronaldo will win best player this year. But the next year could be Messi again. If they finish 6-6 player of the year each... this debate will last into eternity lol. But even the # of awards could have been changed by a Higuain goal here or a Nani goal there.

    It’s better to say they are in the conversation as best player ever
     
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  24. RealMadridista

    RealMadridista Member+

    Aug 21, 2006
    Chicago Il
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Messi literally looked frustrated all game long
    I had no clue what was wrong with him
     
  25. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First, let's get something out of the way. When Maradona was at his best, he was the greatest player of all time. Better than Messi. Better than Ronaldo. Simply unstoppable. Messi takes better care of himself, however, and so has had a longer playing career and has been more prolific in front of goal, but he was never as good as Maradona's best. And neither was Ronaldo. Maradona is the GOAT.

    Second, Messi plays a different position on a team that plays in a different way than Ronaldo's Portugal. Comparing them at the World Cup is not really fair or possible. Messi is a midfielder, often deep-lying. Ronaldo plays at forward. When Messi plays with Argentina, the other team is focused on shutting down Messi in his midfield role. It's quite another thing to be playing as a forward for Portugal with a better midfield.

    If you watched the Croatia match, you saw Messi giving his all, but being double and triple teamed in midfield, constantly fouled, and his teammates not giving him a lot of help. This is what Messi often faces.

    Messi had more goals this season in La Liga than Ronaldo. You can't just push aside this obvious fact. If you talk about Messi's image as having his head down, then you purposefully push aside the 4 Champions League trophies that Messi has won with Barcelona, and you negate the fact that Messi carried Argentina on his back in 2014, as Argentina outplayed Germany in the final's 90 minutes, only to lose in overtime,

    Ronaldo is a great player, and so is Messi. However, your analysis is full of emo and bias, and short on facts.
     
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