The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Liga MX set to announce a 2 year expansion of pro/rel starting next year and expansion of LigaMX to 30 teams.

    968969698455924736 is not a valid tweet id
     
  2. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    There are good reasons for that approach and the "MLS originals" didn't really have much selection in terms of local "brands".

    They literally had to start clubs to populate the league on day one. Just from reading up on it, the landscape really was that barren and what did exist was shaky at best. Consider that the defacto top league in the country at the time was one of the bidders to become the major league that FIFA mandated and they objectively didn't cut it.

    Consider also that the MLS approach for selecting clubs seems to be fairly successful. In some cases they're doing what you suggest (Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, etc), while at the same time, the brand new Atlanta United was a phenomenal success last season. On the days they fully opened that 70k+ stadium, they filled it.

    LAFC in the meantime, despite the failure of their forerunner, Chivas USA, have just sold their full compliment if season tickets for this season. That's 17.5k. Their new stadium will hold 22k.

    I've already reached out to contacts at the Galaxy with the message that I hope they take this as a challenge to redouble their efforts.
     
  3. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I'm okay with it. It's the extreme disdain that bothers me. The type of Twitter warriors who think anyone who watches (or god forbid enjoys) MLS is committing some sin.
     
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  4. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's where I am.

    Not everyone has time to invest in watching a sport so if they pick Barca vs Atletico over Philly Union vs the Smurfs, I understand.

    Like you said, it's the disdain from those types that's the issue.
     
  5. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't understand the disdain for a league where owners are investing tens of millions of dollars annually............

    https://www.rsl.com/post/2018/02/28/herriman-numbers
    https://www.rsl.com/post/2018/02/26/zions-bank-real-academy?autoplay=true

    Real Salt Lake's new training/team/academy facility. Price Tag: $78M. Also has a STEM Academy High School.

    LA Galaxy & Philadelphia Union spend more then $4M/year on their Academies and High Schools. Philly will have 2 Home Grown players making their MLS debuts on Sat in the starting lineup (both under 20). Another Home Grown Player on the Subs bench, and another academy product starting at Right Back. It also likely that another 18 year old academy kid will eventually win the starting LB spot during this season as well.

    Keep in mind the Union's academy is less then 8 years old. The Union as a team have only been playing since 2010, announced in 2008 on this day. I'd say that is pretty good progress.

    Austin Trusty and Derrick Jones featured prominently on last years US U20 WC team.
     
  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because would rather complain about what wasn't working in 2009 than acknowledge what's working in 2018.
     
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  7. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    How much do you think it comes from the fact that they resent the US not having their own equivalents of the UEFA Super Clubs or an elite National Team?

    My buddy that I have Galaxy tickets with, who had little-to-no interest in soccer before he met me, expressed the opinion several years ago, that for soccer to take off in this country, the nats and league must be the best in the world. Because (in his terms) "Americans don't like not being the best".
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS teams will always be second best to the big UCL outfits. It's not a level playing field.

    But the selling point for soccer is that it isn't your parents' sport.
     
  9. Nice to learn that I'm not the only one that tells the socalled superleague is a fata morgana and americanization of soccer is a threat to its existance:

    https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/02/28/sports/soccer/28reuters-soccer-germany-dortmund.html

    " The protests were also a sign German football needed to be wary about over-commercialisation and making fans feel that they are being treated as customers of their favourite club rather than part of their fabric and identity, he added."

    " He said that while it was accepted that clubs like Qatar-owned Paris St Germain were now paying enormous sums to buy star players from rival clubs, a 'Super League' where the "top, top" European clubs played each other still looked unlikely.

    There were big questions about how teams would qualify for such a league and whether clubs in it would continue to play in their national leagues
    ."
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that has what to do with America?
     
  11. Bubba1971

    Bubba1971 Member+

    Nov 12, 2010
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Geezubus Krise! I wasn't aware that the "americanization" of soccer was happening. Personally I want all the games to happen in 5k stadiums in the snow and involve gunshots. I plan on lighting myself om fire at halftime, regardless of what's going on.

    Of course, we need to find some isolated spot in the woods first to beat the shit out of each other. And someone please record it. I hate when we beat each other to bloody pulps and it doesn't make it to YouTube.

    TL; DR
    GTFO with "americanization" of soccer. A whole lot of what Europe and South America do is dumb as f##k.
     
  12. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Something about televising sports on Mondays? Apparently that only happens in the U.S.
     
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  13. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    That, contrary to what some on here have claimed, a closed European super league seems to becoming less likely as time goes on?
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've never seen an MLS game on a Monday night. Maybe other sports do it.
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    A whole lot of what the US does is dumb as f##k too. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
     
  16. Bubba1971

    Bubba1971 Member+

    Nov 12, 2010
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My point is that American soccer (assuming that's the US and Mexico) doesn't influence the rest of the world. It's the other way around. No one in Europe is going to scrap pro/rel, they aren't going to have a salary cap, they aren't going to go to a split or summer schedule.

    The woes of European football are uniquely theirs. The haves and have nots. The idiot hooligans. The big money. Those are European problems, not problems in America.
     
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  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #11267 Paul Berry, Feb 28, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
    I read somewhere that one of the reasons behind Liga MX wanting to abolish traditional pro/rel was that's it's owners had sat and watched as MLS teams roared above most of them in terms of valuations and Mexican owners felt this had a lot to do with relative stability that a closed league brings.

    Other leagues must be looking over their shoulders too and wondering how teams in a mediocre league, with ridiculously high costs and paltry TV revenues are starting to match them in terms of overall valuation.

    So maybe global football will become Americanized, as leagues find ways to preserve the status of their bigger teams.

    Forbes valuations, June 2017 in millions.
    Global
    Manchester United $4,583
    Barcelona $3,635
    Real Madrid $3,580
    Bayern Munich $2,713
    Manchester City $2,083
    Arsenal $1,932
    Chelsea $1,845
    Liverpool $1,492
    Juventus $1,258
    Tottenham Hotspur $1,058
    Paris Saint-Germain $841
    Borussia Dortmund $808
    A.C. Milan $802
    Atlético Madrid $732
    West Ham United $634
    Schalke 04 $629
    Roma $569
    Inter Milan $537
    Leicester City $413
    Napoli $379
    MLS
    LA Galaxy $315
    Seattle Sounders $295
    Toronto FC $280
    New York City $275
    Orlando $272

    Bournemouth were the lowest valued club in the Prem in 2016/17 at $150 million. I
     
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  18. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #11268 USRufnex, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
    No, he's not.

    Your name, please.

    I could respond in full to your post if you either tell me your name or refer to me by my screen name.

    Otherwise , you're just being an asshole...... again.

    969092309810864130 is not a valid tweet id




    #ProRel4USA
     
  19. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    Duly noted.
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Although I believe that promotion and relegation has benefits, I still draw the line when a club's infrastructure and fan base club hurts the league financially.

    We've seen the rise of Burton, woohoo for freedom and human rights! But what did the 800 fans who followed them in the Conference South got to do with that? If they wanted Championship football why didn't go 10 minutes down the road to watch Derby.

    Indeed how many were actual Burton fans and how many were Derby fans wandering in when their team weren't playing at home? And ow many Burton supporters actually wanted league football? Maybe they preferred a small club playing in the lower reaches of the system.

    Anyway, now 2,000 Burton fans get to watch their team in a shiny new stadium outnumbered 2 or 3 times by visitors.

    Meanwhile loyal 8,000 Luton fans got to see their club relegated out of the league due to financial shenanigans they had nothing to do with.

    Looking at the attendances of these non-traditional and/or phoenix clubs shows the economic impact of an open system on the league.


    Championship
    24. Burton Albion

    League One
    20. Wimbledon
    24. Fleetwood

    League Two
    15. Newport
    17. Cheltenham
    19. Forest Green
    20. Stevenage
    21. Crawley
    22. Barnet
    23. Accrington
    24. Morecambe

    I estimated very roughly that the reduction in away fans caused by bigger lower division teams being replaced by smaller non-traditional costs Notts $250,000 a season.

    So in looking at pro/rel I think you have to draw the line at some level, especially if there's likely to be a financial impact on existing teams.
     
  21. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    #11271 CrazyJ628, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2018
    As for those Tweets. It just points out how big of pretentious a-holes that the Motorick fighting interns are. People were pointing out that them saying that if you're from marginalized group X you should be for pro/rel because you're from a marginalized group. Closed systems aren't discriminating against people based on their race/religion/ethnicity/etc. MLS has players from all walks of life, from nearly every continent, with different religious beliefs.

    That's the problem right there; pro/rel truthers are trying to make moving teams up and down a ladder a fight for civil rights. It's stupid and insulting to those who've actually sacrificed for civil rights.
     
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  22. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not so sure. The big clubs may determine that the UCL needs to "streamline" and "maximize value" by locking in the big clubs and dispensing with the pesky first-round qualifiers and so forth.

    I would hate to see that, but I can see the wheels turning. It's a very lucrative competition, and the people with money aren't going to just shrug their shoulders and accept a decline in profitability. They're going to look to innovate and keep the revenue stream running.

    Supporters and fans care WAY more about tradition than shareholders and billionaire owners do.
     
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  23. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    I'm always amused at the idea that pro/rel, the crab bucket of sports, is supposed to provide a level playing field. I think that's one of the reasons the European Super League didn't catch on - every team would face a whole slate of financially secure teams on the schedule, instead of half or fewer, depending on the league.

    Seriously, how quickly would Rangers and Celtic turn into the Browns and Bengals?
     
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  24. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Where do you stand on the meritocracy/opportunity aspect of the system?
     
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Because they're Burton, not Derby, supporters and probably were back when they played in the Southern League, Midland Division when I first saw them play.

    The shiny new stadium that was built in their non-league days. And so what if they are outnumbered?

    Why should a club that was involved in financial shenanigans be propped up by the Football League at the expense of a likely better-run club?

    Except, as I've pointed out to you several times, the percentage increase in League Two attendance from the season before pro/rel was introduced to/from the Football League exceeds the percentage in the divisions above. In other words, the added interest that pro/rel has created, exceeds the negative effect of some less well-supported teams being promoted.

    You haven't demonstrated a financial impact.
     

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